sermonindex
Sep 21, 2014
What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is it a second experience in one`s walk with Christ?
Bear
What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is it a second experience in one`s walk with Christ?
Bear
What is regeneration? Is it being baptised into Christ?
What does it mean to put on Christ? It the same as being baptised into Christ?
Is the putting on Christ the same as the receiving of the Gifts of the Spirit?
Is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, a putting on of Christ, or is it receiving of the Gifts of the Spirit or is it regeneration?
Can we be regenerated, operate in the gifts of the Spirit and yet be carnal and ruled by earthly fleshy lusts?
I think the question should be is there 3 distinct works of the Spirit.
1. Regeneration - Born Again
2. Gifts of the Spirit
3. Holiness - the cleansing of the Heart - the putting on of Christ
Sorry for adding so much questions, but these are the questions that challenge my thinking....
Yes brother, I believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts is the enduement with power from on high that is for all believers to receive after they are saved. This can happen at the same time as salvation but that is rare.
What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is it a second experience in one`s walk with Christ?
If we stick to scripture rather than to our own imaginations which have come from experiences we have had, which may or not be from the Holy Spirit of God, we will see that there were three distinct phases in the lives of the disciples/apostles.
The first was when they were called and decided to follow Christ. However, although their spirits were willing their flesh was weak. Like Peter, I imagine they were enthusiastic at times, but they had a great weight on them which prevented them from being effective in the kingdom. They argued, and were not of one accord. They had problems understanding the things that Jesus told them and quickly lost their trust when things got really bad. Some further work was needed in them as persecution requires a man to be victor in the spiritual warfare and not lose his courage.
The second took place after the death of Jesus, after they had seen exactly what was inside of themselves and saw in stark clear light what they lacked (oh wretched man that I am!) and how they failed at the point of a true disciple who would never desert his leader. A soldier who acted like the disciples would have been severely punished had he left his post as they.
He appeared to them and we can imagine their thoughts and the guilt and sorrow which they felt. However, He was merciful and breathed on them the Holy Spirit which had an astounding effect - they lost their fear and became of one accord. This phase is known in traditional spirituality as Illumination. Suddenly all was made clear to them, and they now operated from the Spirit and not the flesh and they continued rejoicing in obedience to their Master gathering in a public place to wait for the promise, promised since the beginning of time, when God would unite them to Himself when the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.
If we have the Holy Spirit poured out onto us then we are made holy and are one with God, born again, regenerated and made into just and entirely sanctified men. We are given a pure heart and able to do the work of the apostles, having received the gifts of the Spirit and the fruit, and perform the miracle of bringing the conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit to believers who are still in the earlier stages and this is when revival arrives. There is no revival of the right sort, rather than enthusiasms without men like this and no true union with the Divine.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Which comes first Jesus is Lord or the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus is Lord. Salvation is the whole bucket, The Spirit of Christ birthed in us of the incorruptible Seed of the Father, The Holy Spirit baptized in us by the Christ that is birthed in us, which John plainly stated, That He, Jesus Christ will baptize you with and in the Holy Spirit in the believer.
I cannot be saved unless I believe that Jesus is Lord, which takes the Holy Spirit, so I must get the whole bucket of salvation at the same time,being born again and become a new creation, an new creature, a new creation race of Gods children, sons of God, by the Son of God birthed in me. This was Gods
intention even before Adam was created. SONs of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Peter 1:18-23 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Sealed In Christ: Phillip
Quote: Which comes first Jesus is Lord or the Holy Spirit revealing Jesus is Lord.
You bring up a real good point.
Now we can believe that Jesus is Lord, but is that born out in your Life, is the Lordship of Christ evident to all you know, or do you gratify the desires of the flesh.
Quote: I cannot be saved unless I believe that Jesus is Lord, which takes the Holy Spirit, so I must get the whole bucket of salvation at the same time,being born again and become a new creation, an new creature, a new creation race of Gods children, sons of God, by the Son of God birthed in me.
Just about a week a go this thread was on the board, I was posting on it.. Now you'll get all these people who'll come on some will say what they believe and the tensions will rise and before long the flesh will take hold and the division will be on show for all to see...
It's like what Paul says: "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Paul,", simply put your going to see that the whole bucket theory, tipped out as this thread descends into carnality.. We all believe that Jesus is Lord, however we don't act like Jesus is Lord.. What that tells me is that the battle between the flesh and the Spirit rages on within, that we are not governed by the Spirit of God...
Yes brother, I believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as described in the book of Acts is the enduement with power from on high that is for all believers to receive after they are saved. This can happen at the same time as salvation but that is rare.
Agreeing with brother Mark and taking it one step further I believe there are multiple experiences of a baptism of the Spirit in one's experience with Christ. I believe the book of Acts supports this. I would see "baptism" and "filling" as the same thing. "they were all filled" would assume that they were baptized ie submerged in the Spirit.
One second definite experience that lasts for a life-time was a doctrine that made second blessing holiness or certain pentecostal groups exclusive and at times divisive. I believe all the terminology in these groups is actually speaking of the same experience of the holy spirit baptism (filling).
Quote: One second definite experience that lasts for a life-time was a doctrine that made second blessing holiness or certain pentecostal groups exclusive and at times divisive.
An expert from Wikipedia on the history that Greg mentions...
In 1910, William Howard Durham preached a sermon entitled "the Finished Work of Calvary" at a midwestern Pentecostal convention. His finished work teaching "sought to 'nullify' the understanding of sanctification as wholly realized in the believer by a crisis experience subsequent to and distinct from conversion". This teaching began the controversy that divided the Pentecostal movement into a three-stage and two-stage Pentecostalism. Three-stage Pentecostalism held the Wesleyan view that there are three distinct experiences of grace””conversion, sanctification, and baptism in the Holy Spirit. Two-stage Pentecostalism, which was the non-Wesleyan view held by Durham, held that sanctification was a lifelong process that began at conversion, thus this view only professed two stages””conversion and Spirit baptism.
The full article can be found here for anyone who is interested...
Bear asked,
What is the baptism of the Holy Spirit? Is it a second experience in ones walk with Christ?
Answering the first question:
This is my own definition based on the scriptures and I do not claim it to be exhaustive.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the prophesied subsequent promised gift of the Father and anointing of God that is freely given to indwell, teach, lead, and guide every believer whom has been obedient to the command to ask for seeking and knocking and then received by faith the infilling of the Holy Spirit and endued with power from on high to walk not after the flesh but the Spirit and be witnesses for Christ, confirming the preaching of His word from the rivers of living waters with signs following through the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit to serve one another in and through the body of Christ.
In answer to the second question:
Yes, without question.
What I see in scripture is that the baptism is what Jesus promised in John 7:28-29. Rivers overflowing, that is.. the Spirit working in us and through us continuesly.
What I experienced is this:
- Repentance and faith that led to regeneration.
- After a couple of years (6) victory of sin, that I really saw it was possible and experienced it in multiple sins and from that they on other sins as well.
- After a couple of years (5) a deeper surrender and the fullness of the Spirit (baptism of the Spirit), that is: I came to God and He showed me many sins I had never seen as sin and when I repented and yielded myself to Him completly the Lord filled me with a sence of His presence, love, joy, peace that I had never known before. Before that where many depressions, failures, lack of confidence/boldness, etc. After that it was changed and I saw that Jesus Himself is the fullness of the christian life. From that everytime I can walk with Him, and He works through me.
Only one thing is that I desire more and more, for the glory of Jesus Christ. That is the same what brother Greg said I think: there are multiple fillings, we must continue seeking and asking for more of God. Just like Psalm 42:1-3. That should be our heart, to know God, to receive from Him for His glory, to build up the Church and to win the lost for Christ.
Quote: One second definite experience that lasts for a life-time was a doctrine that made second blessing holiness or certain pentecostal groups exclusive and at times divisive.
Colin: This is a very interesting period in the modern Pentecostal movement. We see the Assemblies of God and others who descended from Durham and we see many of the Pentecostal Holiness movements, including Parham's original work, who held to the three stage view. Growing up in this movement, I remember old ministers who preached against the Assemblies as having departed from the truth. At a bare minimum we were instilled with a "healthy" level of distrust.
Parham was originally a Methodist. They taught an experience beyond salvation in which a man was endued with power to live a separated and holy life. It was sometimes referred to as the "second blessing". Parham simply took the Baptism of the Holy Spirit with its accompanying manifestation of tongues, etc. and added it to his existing paradigm. As a result he taught a three-part experience. Seymore was a pupil of Parham and taught the same doctrine. So when Durham disagreed, it caused no small division.
It is funny, but I am a Pentecostal believer who grew up under those who knew Parham and I think I agree more with Durham than I do with Parham. Parham's teaching actually separated justification from the rebirth. Once could be justified (forgiven of past sins) and still not be born again. According to Parham, the rebirth did not happen until the experience of sanctification which was, as you said, a crises experience. I know many, many people who would tell you about the time they "prayed through" to sanctification. Unfortunately, I also know of some who have never received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit because they have never reached what they perceive as the sinless perfection they associate with sanctification.
I am convinced that one cannot receive forgiveness of sins without dying to self and surrendering to Christ. I simply cannot find a second work of sanctification and a third work of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in scripture. I do find that anyone who would come after Christ must deny himself and that being baptized into Christ means being baptized into His death.
I really think that what the old time methodists experienced that they referred to as the "second blessing" was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. If you read firsthand accounts of the manifestations at Cain Ridge and the years shortly thereafter, you can easily come to the conclusion that what they experienced was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And, true to form for the Holy Spirit of God, this experience led to a deeper and deeper life of holiness and separation to God.
But 100 years is a long time, and many things decay in that time. Parham was not experiencing what the early Methodists did, and he was hungry. But he had to fit what happened into his existing paradigm...hence the three part experience.
I will check out the article you referenced. Thank you for including it.
Colin: Just for interest sake, the Bylaws of the Apostolic Faith Bible College. They are pretty much down the line as Parham taught them.
The common doctrinal beliefs are essentially as
follows.
Triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
Creation and Formation
Man is basically sinful and in need of salvation
Salvation by Grace upon repentance toward God and
acceptance of Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior,
which is the conception of Spiritual Life
Sanctification of the Spirit, Soul, and Body, A second
definite work of Grace by the Lord Jesus Christ
Baptism of the Holy Spirit; evidenced by the speaking
in other languages.
Water Baptism (of all believers) by immersion in water
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the
Holy Spirit
Sacrament of the Lord's Supper
Washing of feet
Divine Healing through Jesus Christ for all believers
Do not condone divorce and remarriage
Destruction of the wicked
Conditional Immortality
Rapture of the Man Child Class
Return of Jesus Christ to earth again; bodily and visibly
A ministry supported by tithes and offerings
These doctrines shall be adhered to in the teachings of the
Apostolic Faith Bible College, which in addition to other
doctrinal teaching approved by the Board from time to time
if the are not inconsistent with the above listed basic
doctrines.
Brother Travis wrote:
"I really think that what the old time methodists experienced that they referred to as the "second blessing" was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. If you read firsthand accounts of the manifestations at Cain Ridge and the years shortly thereafter, you can easily come to the conclusion that what they experienced was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And, true to form for the Holy Spirit of God, this experience led to a deeper and deeper life of holiness and separation to God."
Could it be that the "second blessing" is representative of God making His covenant with the individual? There are many examples where one, in faith, walks with the Lord prior to God establishing His covenant with the individual.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father.”
Rom 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Is the "second blessing" the receiving of "the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
Carnal man cannot bring himself to experience what Paul writes of above.
I will humbly submit that based on 1Cor.12:13 every born again child of God is baptized with the Holy Spirit.
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”
Someone says, "But that is the baptism "by” the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, not the baptism "with” or "of" or "in" the Holy Spirit. But in the original the word translated "by” is the Greek word "en”, the same Greek word translated "with” in every verse in the Gospels and Acts which mentions baptism with the Holy Spirit.
On a lighter note, the word translated "all” in 1Cor.12:13 is the Greek word "pas”, which literally means "all, every, whosoever”, meaning every single believer in Christ, whether Jew or Greek, slave or free.
That being said, not every believer is equally filled with or full of the Holy Spirit. I’d make a distinction between the baptism and filling with the Holy Ghost. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to be controlled by Him and to allow His grace to flow in and through our lives. The more we yield to Him the more we are filled with Him as believers in Christ.
I’d also humbly submit that we must be careful not to create a doctrine out of narrative passages in the Gospels and Acts. For example, in Acts 10 and Acts 19 we read that when the believers received the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues. In other words, when they were indwelt by the Spirit they spoke in tongues. Does that mean one must speak in tongues as evidence of receiving the indwelling of the Spirit or salvation? Of course not. Yet the Oneness Pentecostals have taken those passages to mean just that, which I’d say is heresy. Just because God did certain things in a certain way in the Gospels and Acts does not mean He is bound to do those things in the same way all of the time. The epistles are where we draw more clear doctrinal teaching from. The Scriptures do not contradict each other.
Gal 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!”
Has the individual "experienced" what Paul describes above? Has the Spirit of His Son emptied every thought, every sense of self of heart and mind and filled the heart with inexpressible joy that can only worship the Father? Has the individual fallen to his or her knees and being totally consumed in the moment with crying out to God incapable of anything else?
Listen to some Duncan Campbell sermons (Especially his testimony), some James A Stewart sermons, and Bill McLeod sermons... They will help you a lot regarding being filled with the spirit! They knew it by experience
Acts 1:4-5 KJV
4 and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Acts 1:8 KJV
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:4 KJV
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Acts 8:14-17 KJV
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 10:44-46 KJV
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Acts 19:2-6 KJV
2 he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?
And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
It is clear from scripture that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is a separate experience from being baptized into Christ.
It is the Holy Spirit falling upon those that are already baptized into Christ. The Holy Spirit will only fall on Those who are in Christ to immerse them with the power of the Spirit to be His witness.
We must be in Christ in order to be baptized in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit came upon Jesus for ministry after he was baptized in the river Jordan. The Holy Spirit is needed to come upon us, filling us, and empowering us to witness Jesus Christ after we have received Him in regeneration.
Blessings to all!
This discussion is locked.