What to do when you come across someone sawing a co-workers head off?

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

What to Do When you Come Across Someone Sawing a Co-workers Head Off?
I am being deadly serious, this is not a joke. So here are three concise steps of action that I urge my fellow Americans to use if they ever come across this kind of gruesome scenario. It may never happen to you, but if it does I don't want you to be unprepared:

Step 1) Grab your gun.
Step 2) Aim.
Step 3) Fire.

What NOT to do:
a) Do NOT run away!
b) Do NOT try to talk them out of it or negotiate, "hey, take my head and leave theirs". To a man who is about to or in the act of beheading someone, that will not work, I promise you.
c) Do NOT forget to pray, this is very, very important, especially if you are a christian. Pray this prayer.
"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost."
Then pull the trigger.

L

Lysa Sep 27, 2014

Since I do not own a gun and hence no carry permit, those would not be my options.

Me? Being an older woman, I would have to call 911 because on the news he looked like a pretty big guy. Realistically, I don't know if I could run him over to get him to stop.

When I jumped into the middle of the fray before, I was a LOT younger, spry and thinner!! LOL

The topic made me laugh which made me have to provide an answer!!

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

Yes of course Lysa I realise some people do not own a gun, I am just being thankful that the manager of that plant yesterday was able to follow my steps above and save at least one life. Praise the Lord!

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

The scary thing is that this PRECISE scenario is going to be happening again and again ALL OVER THE WORLD. It is as if something new from hell has been released from the pit!!!

D

drifter Sep 27, 2014

Well, I'm 6 feet tall and weigh 200 pounds, and I don't own a gun, so I would try to disarm him and beat the tar out of him. I would try to make said beating as christian as I could, though.

S

Sidewalk Sep 27, 2014

I admit it was troubling to me in years past when non-Christians objected to the faith because of God's instructions to the Israelites to kill entire populations of neighboring people. (1 Samuel 15:3) I was in a Rodney King frame of reference I guess, "Can't we all just get along?"

But as these world-wide terror events begin to fester and grow it is increasingly clear that it would have been better if some of these vermin never existed. Clearly driven by satanic ambitions, there is no pause for moral reflection or any provision for grace and reason.

You are right, Awakened- aim and shoot. It is the only thing they understand. And apparently first understood by the Father Himself.

"My Spirit will not always strive with men..."

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

"Do not return evil for evil.” ( 1 Pet 3.9 , Rom 12.17 , 1 Thes 5.15 )
"Overcome evil with good.”( Rom 12.21 ) "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” (Rom 12.19 )

We are specifically called to follow Jesus example of suffering love and non-retaliation. ( 1 Peter 2.21). Jesus died for the life his enemies. ( Rom 5.8, 10 ) Jesus gave this as the specific reason to love our enemies, "so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven" ( Mat 5.45 ) -- to be like him!

God will take care of us and is fully capable of handling those who do evil. We should not fear people, even those who could kill us (Matt 10.28 ).

---

Mt 5:44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

Lu 6:27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

Lu 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

Mt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Lu 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

Mt 26:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.

Mt 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

1 Peter 3.8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind. :9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

Ro 12.17-21 Do not repay anyone evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads."
21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good .

1Th 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

M

MaryJane Sep 27, 2014

by sermonindex on 2014/9/27 10:55:00

"Do not return evil for evil.” ( 1 Pet 3.9 , Rom 12.17 , 1 Thes 5.15 )
"Overcome evil with good.”( Rom 12.21 ) "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’” (Rom 12.19 )

We are specifically called to follow Jesus example of suffering love and non-retaliation. ( 1 Peter 2.21). Jesus died for the life his enemies. ( Rom 5.8, 10 ) Jesus gave this as the specific reason to love our enemies, "so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven" ( Mat 5.45 ) -- to be like him!

God will take care of us and is fully capable of handling those who do evil. We should not fear people, even those who could kill us (Matt 10.28 ).
___________________

Thank you for posting this Greg!! Really appreciated the very good and timely reminder of what JESUS has to say on this topic!!

God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

Lol, I am pretty sure that Jesus never said anything on the topic of what to do if your friend is getting his head cut off and there's a gun on the table in front of you:) But he did say this...

"...for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." (Luke 16:8)

M

MaryJane Sep 27, 2014

Its interesting because all the verse Greg shared spoke very clearly to me on what to do when confronted with evil. Maybe the details differ but the response we are called to is always the same, love your enemies.

Again thank you Greg for sharing and pointing us to JESUS...

God bless
maryjane

sermonindex Sep 27, 2014

Personally I am a pacifist, I hate violence, I hate war and I hate gratuitous hunting I can't even stand to see animals harmed. But the situation I am describing in this post has nothing to do with me returning evil for evil or suffering wrong for doing good or persecution of Christians etc. etc. The whole SI debate on what to do with radical Muslims beheading people in the Middle East has now come home to roost and it's happening right here in the United States amongst us. I just thought for once we could lay down our personal ideals and theological positions and agree to have common sense because I can tell you I personally believe Jesus would've picked up that gun or used other means and stopped that man from killing the innocent woman. He would not have stood by and called 911 or run away; so this is a real life example and we are going to be presented with more and more situations like this. Please do not side with foolishness and judge this good man who used a gun to defend The life of another.

S

Sidewalk Sep 27, 2014

At one point in Jesus' ministry, a man asked Him to take the brother of the man to task, commanding the brother to share the inheritance. Jesus' answer was, "Who made me arbiter for you and your brother?" There was an authority Jesus had, and some He did not have.

So it is with men. "For him who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James counsels us. There are times when circumstances thrust authority upon us, and we need to act with that authority as the situation demands. For me, using violence to save the life of an innocent person from another man's violence is clearly the right thing to do. There is aggressive violence, and defensive violence. The latter is simply the use of sufficient force to terminate the threat, it is nothing like the violence that seeks to hurt another for one's personal gain.

It is so interesting that the gospel accounts of the kindly acts of healing and wisdom defining the earthly ministry of our precious savior also include the temple cleansing. As a friend of mine once posted on Facebook,

"Sometimes, 'What would Jesus do?' involves a whip and some crashing tables."

Non-violent responses of lovingkindness are always best, but sometimes that is not an option.

T

TMK Sep 27, 2014

Brother Mark I agree with you 1000%

To not protect the other innocent woman from this monster and allow him to cut her head off too would be sinning, pure and simple.

Can you imagine a scenario where the co-worker had NOT taken action when he had the power (gun) to do so and have to explain to the 2nd woman's family (because she is now beheaded too) that "sorry, I am a Christian and therefore had to allow your loved one to be beheaded."

This is preposterous and it is a twisting of scripture to think otherwise.

I may have missed it but I did not see anywhere in the story where angels were showing up to protect anybody in that building. Oh wait-- the co-worker was the angel. Duh.

M

MaryJane Sep 27, 2014

by awakened on 2014/9/27 13:20:07

Personally I am a pacifist, I hate violence, I hate war and I hate gratuitous hunting I can't even stand to see animals harmed. But the situation I am describing in this post has nothing to do with me returning evil for evil or suffering wrong for doing good or persecution of Christians etc. etc. The whole SI debate on what to do with radical Muslims beheading people in the Middle East has now come home to roost and it's happening right here in the United States amongst us. I just thought for once we could lay down our personal ideals and theological positions and agree to have common sense because I can tell you I personally believe Jesus would've picked up that gun or used other means and stopped that man from killing the innocent woman. He would not have stood by and called 911 or run away; so this is a real life example and we are going to be presented with more and more situations like this. Please do not side with foolishness and judge this good man who used a gun to defend The life of another.

____________________

Greetings Mark

I can't see the picture you painted of JESUS killing anyone. JESUS took on the sin or the world, suffered and died on the cross so that no man would suffer eternity of hell. I just don't seem HIM now killing people as you described. Historically at anytime JESUS could have stepped into human history and stopped many innocents from dying but HE hasn't.

All I can say is I just don't see things the way you do I guess. It has nothing to do with "ideals" or "theological debate", its just what JESUS has pressing on my heart.

As for the man you spoke of who shot the attacker, I don't judge him. Its not my place to do so. I pray for him though, I am sure after such a horrible ordeal he could use the prayers.

I will close by saying I don't feel like I am siding with foolishness. I thanked Greg for posting the verses and pointing us to JESUS because I thought them good reminders. Honestly I just want to follow the LORD and I can honestly say right now prayer is where I think we all need to be. Praying for the lost and deceived in this world to see their need for JESUS before it is to late.

God bless you
maryjane

edit: wanted to convey my heart in a CHRIST like manner and felt I needed to change some things to do so.

sermonindex Sep 28, 2014

I hear what you are saying sister, but I think what this discussion highlights for me more than anything is how often we as Christians tend to fix our beliefs about everything even those things which are not essential issues. I mean as a believer there is only one or two absolutely he essential issues that I will never change my position on and they have to do with the centrality of salvation by faith in Christ. But things like this exact specific situation, surely there is room in our theology and understanding of what is right or wrong for us to shade outside the lines? Or do we have to be absolutely certain and correct about every single thing in life? I'm just asking the question...I certainly don't know everything and I certainly would never want to say that I absolutely can tell you what God's attitude is or what He would do in a horrific situation like this. I just think in this specific situation there is enough murkiness and contradiction in Scripture for us to say that there is grace for a person in this kind of situation to save the life of another. Now why is it too hard to agree on that?

sermonindex Sep 28, 2014

Awakened, did you have a good look at the "Community Guiding Principles" before you posted this? You fabricated a gruesome scenario and then tell us what to do and not to do but you didn't use any scriptures for your support (in your first post)
I find several comments on this thread inappropriate, eg "Lol, I am pretty sure that Jesus never said anything on the topic..." Why use Lol, why laugh out loud ? Imo this is definitely not something to laugh about !

I'm a bit surprised why the moderators haven't stepped in and maybe even locked the thread.
To clarify, I think it is ok to discuss if we are allowed to use force and defend ourselves and to disagree on the topic as long as we all use scripture to support what we believe and maybe examples from Church History etc. But we should do it decently.

"May the Lamb that was slain receive the reward of His suffering” (Moravian Missions movement.)

Blessings! Markus

S

SteveHale Sep 28, 2014

I'am with Markus, reading words like "Grab your gun, aim and fire" coming from a "Christian" shows how deceived some people are. And how could you possibly pray for people if you consider them "vermin"?? To me it smells of the same spirit that is within those carrying black flags and killing supposedly in the name of God. Or like the average bloke I meet in the street that could not care less about their eternal soul.

And I am speak from experience, one of the towns that I do street evangelizing in has a growing population of muslims in it. And about three months ago one came up to me and told me not to pollute the people with the name of Jesus, or he will cut off my head. I could tell by what was looking out of his eyes, that he was fair dinkum. I had three choices to make 1. shrink away in fear 2. become violent myself or 3. tell him that Jesus has saved my soul and therefore I am not afraid of death and will keep telling people about Jesus. I chose the third!

Let me just say this in love. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing! This message is not just Jesus on the cross that is foolishness, but you! If you want to be saved you must deny yourselves and take up your cross and follow Jesus. Where are you going with your cross? If not to death you will be disqualified from a crown that is given by the Master.

Time is short,and if your faith is in Father, Son and automatic weapon, you will falter when hard times descend upon the Earth. For when the man of lawlessness is revealed he he will be given power to make war with the saints and overcome them (Revelation 13:7). And if anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God's people (Revelation 13:10).

In Love Steve

sermonindex Sep 28, 2014

This is an actual news event that happened yesterday in America. It's all over the news on every chanel and every newspaper and website!!! My post was written because now we have a "real life" situation in our own back yard where we can all agree to praise the Lord that at least one innocent life was saved by the use of force. Well at least I thought so. Silly me:) The quick thinking manager of Vaughans Food Plant used force to stop a murderer...that is AWESOME!!! Right? Praise the Lord...right? So why is that so offensive to some christians? It almost seems as if some people are more grieved by the use of a gun to stop a murder than by the actual grotesque murder itself??!

What is happening to us christians, have we gone completely nuts? Are we not able to feel anymore and have compassion? Can we not just simply use common sense and agree with what is obviously the right thing to do? I just wonder if some christians here who object to the manager using a gun, if they worked at that same factory, what they would have done in the aftermath? As the manager was being tearfully hugged and thanked by EVERYONE else for his brave and selfless actions, what would you be doing? This is not a fabricated scenario, this actually happened...yesterday! But would you be that one sulking employee giving the manager the stink eye for offending your high minded theology? I seriously wonder about that:)

Anyway, I am done here I think. If nothing else has come out of being a part of this forum I have LEARNED A LOT about my fellow christians and their varied and interesting views about everything. We certainly are a strange group of people us christians. Unable to agree on anything, eager to argue over everything and constantly straining at gnats and swallowing camels!

M

MaryJane Sep 28, 2014

Greeting mark

I told you in my post I do not judge the man who shot the attacker its not my place to. I pray for him as I would anyone Who had been through such terrible things.

My issue was never with what this other man did, that is between him and GOD. My difficulty was with the words you chose to use. When you said the correct way to respond was with a gun and then you said JESUS would take up the gun and do whatever it takes....I wonder how does the JESUS you described sound different from the violent spirit in some other religions? what might someone who is not saved, who is seeking come to think of JESUS after reading this post of yours? I ask these things because I am learning that our words do matter. Brother you don't have to answer my questions I just pray you will consider some of these things as I have and am praying about what you have shared.

One thing that came to my mind this morning was JESUS response
As HE was dying on the cross, HE said forgive them for they know not what they do....its interesting the kind of love that was demonstrated that day. There was JESUS suffering in agonizing pain, dying and with some of HIS last breath HE was concerned about their souls and their eternity...

God bless and keep you
Maryjane

sermonindex Sep 28, 2014

so now it is being suggested that I am comparing my Lord and savior to the murderous violent spirit of radical Islam??? Seriously? Wow. That's not what I am saying at all. I believe that Jesus would have used whatever means He had available to save people's lives. A whip, a stick a gun...anything. I do not believe He would have as a compassionate human stood there and just watched someone being murderd. Or just allowed it to happen and said "God bless you for being a martyr". And I never mentioned killing anyone did I? And neither am I now!!! The manger did not kill the attacker either, just stopped him.

My belief stands that if Jesus was confronted with a crisis of "theology" He would not strain at a gnat and swallow a camel...THATS WHAT I AM SAYING!!! Those who have an ear to hear; will hear this.

He would have pulled His donkey out of the ditch on the sabbath just as He healed the sick on the sabbath. He disturbed the peace and caused an uproar with a whip and upturned tables and so I see this same man defending the innocent as that manager did, if He had split second to decide.

If you are honest will stop misrepresenting what I am saying in this thread and stop calling what this manager did "violent" but see it for what it really is, a loving and compassionate act to save an innocent life. Let's not be like the Pharisees who got upset when their religious ideals were broken to save lives and help others who could not help themselves.