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Does God love us for who we are?

Y
yuehan Oct 14, 2014

I usually don't give heed to news about the Roman Catholic church, but recently there was a New York Times article stating that the Roman Catholic leadership has decided to "welcome and accept gay people, unmarried couples and those who have divorced, as well as the children of these less traditional families".

I certainly do not expect the Roman Catholic church to be articulate on Christian truths. However, the article triggered some thoughts:

We know that God loves the sinner (Romans 5:8). But if someone were to ask you, "Does God love me for who I am?" - how would you answer that?

(it's a pretty loaded question... what does "for who I am" mean anyway?)

D
dolfan Oct 14, 2014

God loves us for who He is, right? He IS love. He created us in His image. It is His image that He loves, or He would not have made us in it. He made us for Him to be with. He made us to love us, for His own pleasure and glory. Rev. 4:11.

Do we possess inherent, independent value? No, not independent of Him, we do not. Paul compared us to seeds being sown in 1 Corinthians and, in articulating the truth of the resurrection, stated that if there is no resurrection, our faith is in vain, we are pitiful and we may as well die. The resurrection is the seal of our value and the proof of the source of our value -- He is both, exclusively so. It is our likeness to Him then ("we shall be like Him...") and our being made alive with Him that demonstrates our value. Our value, then, lies in His precious self. No more than I can eat gold is it valuable to my body if everyone is merely subsisting for what we can put into our mouths. Gold has value only if I can get something else with it. Our value lies in the fact that "God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8); yet, the value is connected with His own purposes for us -- that we should be a kind of "firstfruits of His creatures". James 1:18.

So, does God love us for who we are? It is like asking the sound of the color blue. There is no answer apart from Him. In Him we live and move and have our being. Does He love us for who we are in Himself? Absolutely. The world will not qualify human value on such terms, however.

M
MaryJane Oct 14, 2014

Greetings

Yes it is a loaded question but I think there is a two part answer, GOD loves us because of who HE is... then I would say HE does not love us for who we are but in spite of who we are.

As far as the RCC I think what your seeing here is more of what Frank spoke to a while back. The RCC wanting to be all things to all people as they continue to compromise and work toward one religion.

God bless
mj

sermonindex Oct 14, 2014

"Does God love me for who I am?" - how would you answer that?

yes.

R
rbanks Oct 14, 2014

by dolfan on 2014/10/14 11:57:36

God loves us for who He is, right? He IS love. He created us in His image. It is His image that He loves, or He would not have made us in it. He made us for Him to be with. He made us to love us, for His own pleasure and glory. Rev. 4:11.

Do we possess inherent, independent value? No, not independent of Him, we do not. Paul compared us to seeds being sown in 1 Corinthians and, in articulating the truth of the resurrection, stated that if there is no resurrection, our faith is in vain, we are pitiful and we may as well die. The resurrection is the seal of our value and the proof of the source of our value -- He is both, exclusively so. It is our likeness to Him then ("we shall be like Him...") and our being made alive with Him that demonstrates our value. Our value, then, lies in His precious self. No more than I can eat gold is it valuable to my body if everyone is merely subsisting for what we can put into our mouths. Gold has value only if I can get something else with it. Our value lies in the fact that "God commended His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom. 5:8); yet, the value is connected with His own purposes for us -- that we should be a kind of "firstfruits of His creatures". James 1:18.

So, does God love us for who we are? It is like asking the sound of the color blue. There is no answer apart from Him. In Him we live and move and have our being. Does He love us for who we are in Himself? Absolutely. The world will not qualify human value on such terms, however.
-quote-


Brother! This is an awesome post which I can agree with whole-heartily! I felt to re post it and to thank you for sharing it!

Blessings to all!

T
TMK Oct 14, 2014

Sometimes when questions are asked like this it helps to substitute "Jesus" for "God".

Does Jesus love us for who we are (or did he love people for who they were)?

Yes, absolutely.

"Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, "One thing you lack..."

O
Oracio Oct 14, 2014

God loves us in spite of what we are apart from Him, which is vile, wretched, despicable sinners who deserve nothing but His eternal wrath. Unless we come to that realization we are not saved but remain under His wrath.

"For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life."-Romans 5:6-10

O
Oracio Oct 15, 2014

I feel I only shared one side of the coin in my post. I do understand that there is both dignity and depravity when it comes to humanity.

God's Word does teach that we all possess an inherent dignity because we are made in the image and likeness of God. That "image and likeness of God" separates us from the animal kingdom and all other creations of God. That "image and likeness" is seen in various ways, such as in our mental capacities, our creative abilities, and our moral sense of the need for justice.

But because of the fall of man, because of our sinful condition, we are also depraved and desperately wicked(Jer.17:9); by nature children of wrath(Eph.2:3); enemies of God in our minds through wicked works(Col.1:21). All throughout, God's Word paints a very ugly picture of humanity in terms of our fallen, sinful condition before God.

I believe that the point about human depravity is highly needed to be understood in this kind of discussion first and foremost. This God-hating, evil world-system in which we live tries to tell us that we need more self-esteem in order to be happy and solve our problems. They try to paint a nice, pretty picture of sinful humanity. Many professing Christians fall into that type of deception. We have preachers today that tell us that we are to worship God primarily for ourselves, for what's in it for us, not supremely for the glory and honor of God.

Like John the Baptist declared so truthfully, "He must increase and I must decrease."-John 3:30

sermonindex Oct 15, 2014

Jesus Christ the LAST Adam reversed what Adam had done.
Adams race was completely destroyed and we where recreated by Him a NEW Creation!

After the cross NO one is born in Adam.
WE no longer have a wicked and depraved heart.
WE have a NEW heart and a NEW Spirit.
He took away the old heart and totally replaced it.

Gods does love us and HE solved the sin problem and mankind's sinful condition on the cross.

O
Oracio Oct 15, 2014

After the cross NO one is born in Adam.
WE no longer have a wicked and depraved heart.
WE have a NEW heart and a NEW Spirit.
He took away the old heart and totally replaced it.

Could you clarify that a bit for us tuc. Do you mean that that applies also to those who are not yet born again? Does that have universal application. Does that apply to Muslims, Buddhists, atheists, etc. who don't trust in Christ?

O
Oracio Oct 15, 2014

After the cross NO one is born in Adam.
WE no longer have a wicked and depraved heart.
WE have a NEW heart and a NEW Spirit.
He took away the old heart and totally replaced it.

Yet Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."

While it is true that we are made new creations in Christ and are radically transformed from the inside out, we still have a fallen nature that opposes God, and we must put it to death daily by taking up our cross, denying ourselves and following Christ.

Jesus said that apart from Him we(born again Christians) can do nothing, meaning nothing of any worth in God's sight. Even as Christians we can and do sin at times and we grieve and quench the Spirit. Anything we do apart from faith is sinful and reflects the old man. Scripture says we are to put off the old man, implying that the old man is still a reality we must deal with and crucify by the Spirit's power.

P
proudpapa Oct 15, 2014

RE: ///Yet Paul said, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find."///

I believe if you will read The 7th chapter of Romans slowly and in context, that you will find that the above verses is clearly presented as a first person narrative of a past tense event. also Romans 7 clearly refutes the idea that men are born sinners.

O
Oracio Oct 15, 2014

I believe if you will read The 7th chapter of Romans slowly and in context, that you will find that the above verses is clearly presented as a first person narrative of a past tense event. also Romans 7 clearly refutes the idea that men are born sinners.

Paul says in that chapter, "For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.”-Rom.7:15-17

We know that man in his lost condition does not hate sin but loves it and drinks it like water. Yet Paul says there that he hates sin.

"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.”-Rom. 7:19-21

Again, Paul says he has a will to do good, yet unregenerate people have a will bent toward evil; their thoughts and plans are filled with evil continuously.

"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”-Rom.7:22

By contrast, concerning unregenerate people Paul says in Romans 8:5-7, "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.”

O
Oracio Oct 15, 2014

We know that God loves the sinner (Romans 5:8). But if someone were to ask you, "Does God love me for who I am?" - how would you answer that?

(it's a pretty loaded question... what does "for who I am" mean anyway?)

Since this question is asked in the context of sharing the gospel I thought I'd share about a recent conversation I had. Just the other day as I was taking a walk during my lunch break I approached a young man in order to try to share the gospel with him. He was in front of me and I said(I'll be paraphrasing as I may not recall the exact wording exchanged), "Hey young man (he stopped and turned around), can I encourage you with this booklet, it has a good message in it, it starts out with this good question, ‘Are You A Good Person?’”. As he took the booklet and looked at it I said, "I sometimes ask people the question, ‘Would you consider yourself to be good enough to go to heaven if you stood before God today?' How would you answer that question?” He said something like, "Probably not.” I asked, "Why not?” He said, "Because of all the bad stuff I’ve done and keep doing.”

I said, "So you don’t think you’ve done well with God’s standard of goodness? For example, how do you think you’ve done with the Ten Commandments?” He said, "I think I’ve done pretty well with them actually.” After asking him about a few specific Commandments (about lying, stealing, blasphemy, and heart-adultery, which he admitted to committing)(like Jesus did with the rich young ruler in Matt.19:16-22), I said, "I'm not judging you but you've just admitted to me that you're a lying, thieving, blasphemous adulterer at heart, and you have to face God on Judgment Day." He laughed a bit and was pretty surprised, but he agreed. Then I asked him if he thought he would be found innocent or guilty based on that standard if He stood before God today. He immediately said guilty. I asked him if it would mean heaven or hell for him, and he said hell.

When I asked him if it concerned him, he stayed quiet for a moment in reflection and then said, "Well, yeah, but I can’t worry too much about it because after all, I can’t just ask for forgiveness.” He said he had tried Catholicism and Jehovah’s Witnesses but it didn’t work out for him. I asked him if he knew what God had done so we could be forgiven and escape the judgment of hell. He said he had no clue. I then explained that God sent His Son Jesus Christ from heaven to earth around 2,000 years ago, that He lived a perfect life we could never live, that He voluntarily laid down His life and suffered and died on the cross to take our punishment, and that He rose again from the dead. I explained that what God commands us to do is to repent (turn from our sins) and believe (trust) in Jesus Christ.

I asked him if what I shared made sense and he said it did. I asked him when he thought he would repent and trust in Christ, to which he replied, "Well, when I’m ready I guess because I honestly don’t think I’m ready right now.” I reasoned with him about the value of his soul. I asked him if he would sell his eyes for 50 million dollars and he said no way. I told him that if his eyes are so priceless and valuable to him how much more valuable should his soul be, and then shared with him Matthew 10:26 which warns about losing one’s soul for all of eternity in hell. I asked him if he could guarantee that he would see another day (he said no), and I reasoned with him and shared scriptures about the brevity of this life and the need to repent and trust Christ today.

I then gave him one of my church’s info cards and invited him to church. He asked if we accept homosexuals. I told him we welcome everyone to our church services, and that we share with everyone the same message I had just shared with him, that one must turn from their sins and trust in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, regardless of what their sins are or what background they come from. I did tell him that we do believe that homosexuality is a sin, like heterosexual fornication or adultery or getting drunk or high or cursing are sins we must turn from. I shared with Him about being born again and experiencing life-transformation by God's power and receiving a new heart with new desires. He was nodding in sort of semi-agreement (seemingly resistant). So I left him with those thoughts and shook his hand and we parted ways.

So when it comes to sharing the gospel with homosexuals I don’t believe it’s always necessary to even mention the sin of homosexuality, unless they bring it up or we discern that they need to understand what God says about it. As we reason about other sins God the Holy Spirit can bring enough conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment.

P
proudpapa Oct 15, 2014

RE: ///We know that man in his lost condition does not hate sin but loves it and drinks it like water. Yet Paul says there that he hates sin.///

Many unsaved people hate sin.
As an unsaved man and a Jewish pharisees Paul was very Zealous to be obedient to the Law (he hated sin)

Pauls entire point in the book of Romans is that the Gospel has the power to do that which the Law does not have the power to accomplish.

The man in romans 7 is clearly a man trying to please God through the performance of the Law, that is not the Gospel.

RE ///"For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.”-Rom. 7:19-21///

Read those verses in context, they are clearly speaking of a past tense event (Pre Saved Paul) written in a first person narrative. It is a man under the law trying to please God. (topic headings are not inspired they muffle the truths of the Bible)

RE:///Again, Paul says he has a will to do good, yet unregenerate people have a will bent toward evil; their thoughts and plans are filled with evil continuously.///

Most unsaved people that I know have a will to do what is good, but how to perform that which is good they find not.

They want to stop there drinking, smoking, self abuse, pornoghraphy etc. , but how to perform that which is good they find not.

RE: ///"For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”-Rom.7:22///

In Philippians 3:6 Paul says of his unsaved past self concerning the law :".. touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."


O
Oracio Oct 16, 2014

Okay proudpapa, I will grant the possibility of that interpretation for that passage.

But to me there could be a difference between the first half of the chapter and the second half. We see that Paul changes from clearly speaking of himself in the past tense in the first half to speaking of himself in the present tense in the second half.

So to me another possibility is that in the second half of the chapter Paul may be speaking of himself in terms of his "being" or "self" apart from Christ, whether in the past or present.

In other words, before being born again Paul was not able to conquer the flesh in his own strength or in and of himself, and the same applies after we are born again. In and of ourselves we cannot conquer the flesh. In and of ourselves we are nothing and we still live with this flesh in which nothing good dwells. As believers, we must abide in Christ and yield to the Spirit's working and power in our lives. So the same principle applies either way. Again, in and of ourselves and in our own strength we are nothing but dust or worms, hell-deserving sinners saved by the grace of God, and we can and should consider ourselves to be the chiefs of sinners like Paul did, but by the grace of God...

P
proudpapa Oct 16, 2014

Brother Oracio,

RE/// Paul may be speaking of himself in terms of his "being" or "self" apart from Christ, whether in the past or present.///

I recall Bro Denny giving that duall understanding, And I also can definetly agree with it.

O
Oracio Oct 16, 2014

I felt led to share these two short vids here which I think explain well what our condition is apart from Christ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wJK5HlGOYg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gub5uaiT3fo

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