Grieving in Heaven?

I have a compilation of portions of Leonard Ravenhill sermons called "Crowns."

In this he makes a statement: "If God gives you a job to do and you don't do it, in eternity you'll see a man forever and ever wearing a crown that you should have had. A hundred million years from now you'll be grieving over it."

Now, I really like the statement because of its rhetorical power, I am just not sure if it is true.

Do you believe there will be grieving like this in heaven, or perhaps a softer word- regretting?

I find Ravenhill's perspective to be comical . I am sure he meant it in that light . All who get into heaven will not be afflicted with envy . So none will be jealous for the one bestowed with a crown. Rather the contrary, all will rejoice with him .

There will be distinctions in heaven, scripture teaches this plainly. For example, crowns will be given to honor the martyrs; other crowns will be given to distinguish the overcomers. Not everyone will be a martyr, obviously, nor an overcomer -- yet all these will still be in heaven. I believe the new earth will have rulers, and there will be hierarchy. What we do here on the old earth will determine the authority Jesus will entrust onto us on the new earth.

If there is no regret, or tears, in heaven(or the new earth) then one's position there would be irrelevant. For there certainly will not be pride for those in higher positions, and no envy or regret for those is lower positions.

It is very difficult for us now to imagine what that would be like.

In the parable of the talents, The king gives 5 talents to one servant, two to another, and of course the one to loser-boy. At the accounting the one with 5 has made 5 more, and the one with 2 has made another 2. The approving words to each man are exactly the same as they are invited into the joy of the Master.

It seems that while the rewards will be different, the Master's attitude is exactly the same and since He is the actual reward what difference would it really make? To whom much is given shall much be required and to whom little, little!

It seems to me that the man who is given much but gives back little is just stealing from himself. His eternal reward will be shortchanged simply because he limited himself from what might have been so much greater. And still he won't be able to fathom the difference.

Lastly, spending eternity envying someone else's crown sounds more like Hell than heaven???

Agreed, Tom. This is why I wonder why Mr. Ravenhill said it.

My impression has been that Leonard Ravenhill used a lot of hyperbole in his messages to make a strong point. Not neccesarily wrong, but you have to understand the point he is making rather than take it all as literal facts. He is exhorting, not teaching doctrine.

Edit: in fact Jesus used hyperbole quite a bit, such as "you strain out gnats and swallow camels" and "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven".

I agree Dave. I am not trying to nitpick. Like I said at first I like what he said and it appears to be rhetoric. I didn't mean to come off like I was bashing him because I would not do that.

It just got me thinking whether there might be some truth in what he said.

No one ever accused Len Ravenhill of being a happy camper. He spent his life chastising the church, never satisfied with whatever people were doing at their level for the kingdom. He wanted to see more prayer, deeper worship, less worldliness, holier lives. He would take an invitation to speak at a church and rip them up one aisle, down the other. He fascinated people, but there weren't a lot of second invitations!

My friend Dick Nelson, who met Len when he tore our church up, was one of the few people he met along the way who became good friends. I was always on the edge of that relationship but in 1986 as I was moving to California I stopped in Texas to visit with him at his home. It was a nice visit and a treasured memory for me, but not filled with any personal warmth.

Best he remain the honored preacher he is, glean his wisdom and enjoy his holy wit. But be sure to similarly gather seed from a lot of other personalities too, too much Len will fill you with...too much Len.

There will be distinctions in heaven, scripture teaches this plainly. For example, crowns will be given to honor the martyrs; other crowns will be given to distinguish the overcomers. Not everyone will be a martyr, obviously, nor an overcomer -- yet all these will still be in heaven. I believe the new earth will have rulers, and there will be hierarchy. What we do here on the old earth will determine the authority Jesus will entrust onto us on the new earth.

Yes I agree as well that there will be hierarchy. Some will shine bright like stars because they lead many to righteousness. But the point is a person who is sitting at the top of Hierarchy and another at the bottom, they both will acknowledge that they are unworthy to be seated in his kingdom. So there will not be any comparison in this kingdom.

Yes I believe there will be regret when we reach heaven when God shows us how he intended our life on earth to be if we had obeyed him in everything, if we had not loved the world as we did, if we had not yielded to the flesh as we did etc.

I would like to address the subject of 'crowns' as used in the bible and the quite common teaching that gets passed down about there being different crowns in the sense of rewards for different types of faithfulness. I would like to suggest that like many teachings that get repeated, that this is probably not correct.

When you look at the usage of ‘crowns’ in the bible from OT into NT I think you see that this term is used quite commonly as a metaphor to describe an outward manifestation of something or the end result of something. For example, Paul says of the Thessalonians (1 Th.2) that when they appear in the presence of the Lord at His coming they will be his ‘crown’ of rejoicing. He is not saying he will get a ‘crown’, but they are his ‘crown’. i.e. they are the manifest end result of his ministry. From the OT in Proverbs 12:4 "An excellent wife is the crown of her husband”. It is not that the husband gets a ‘crown’ for having an excellent wife (I wish), but that she is a visible blessing on him.

In the same way the ‘crowns’ mentioned that we receive when the Lord returns are not actual crowns or even some special reward, but is a metaphor for the manifestation of the end result of our faith. They are the ‘crown of righteousness’, the ‘crown of life’ and the ‘crown of glory’. All of us who are redeemed and born of God will be adorned with righteousness, (eternal) life and glory when Christ returns. Also no one can say they get any of these as a reward for any special activity they did on earth. They are all bestowed by grace on those who walk by faith and obedience in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now I do believe the bible teaches there will be different levels of authority given, based on different levels of faithfulness, but that is a different thing.

Great post Heydave! It provides a good example and explanation of why we cannot use extreme literalism in interpreting some portions of Scripture. There are many things written in the Word that are not to be interpreted in a strictly literal sense.

Another clear example is in considering the whole book of Revelation. Many have interpreted much of the symbolism found therein in a strictly literal sense and there have been weird teachings derived like that imo.

Sidewalk writes:

No one ever accused Len Ravenhill of being a happy camper. He spent his life chastising the church, never satisfied with whatever people were doing at their level for the kingdom. He wanted to see more prayer, deeper worship, less worldliness, holier lives. He would take an invitation to speak at a church and rip them up one aisle, down the other. He fascinated people, but there weren't a lot of second invitations!

My friend Dick Nelson, who met Len when he tore our church up, was one of the few people he met along the way who became good friends. I was always on the edge of that relationship but in 1986 as I was moving to California I stopped in Texas to visit with him at his home. It was a nice visit and a treasured memory for me, but not filled with any personal warmth.

Best he remain the honored preacher he is, glean his wisdom and enjoy his holy wit. But be sure to similarly gather seed from a lot of other personalities too, too much Len will fill you with...too much Len.

But again, I love Ravenhill's preaching in that it challenges the prevailing lukewarmness of today's churches, and I would recommend his audio sermons and books to every believer.

I was introduced to LR in around 2004 when my wife and I attended a youth worker conference. The speaker was playing compilations of his sermons and I had never heard of him before. It was like a slap on the face that I needed to stop playing at church and to get serious. It sparked a personal revival and there was a mini revival there at this youth conference in Ripley WV.

Leonard Ravenhill was one of the most powerful and influential men of God of our day. The first time I ever heard him I listened to the 7:25 Judgment seat of Christ compilation on YouTube. I found myself bowing down on the floor weeping and crying out to God asking him to cleanse me and to help me prepare for His coming. Since then, I've not been the same. His messages and ministry have greatly impacted my life. This is a man that walked with God and served the Kingdom of God wholeheartedly. He fought the good fight, and kept the faith.

I can't and won't say anything against him. However, whenever we are
listening to him or any other preacher, we must exercise caution that we don't take everything they say over what God says in His Word. The Bible said in Matthew 24:24 that even the very elect could be deceived if possible.

How will we not be deceived? If the Word of God doesn't say it, don't believe it. Romans 10:17 says faith cometh by hearing, hearing by the Word of God. As Christians we must base our lives on God's Word. Not Man's word, history, or our thoughts and opinions.

To answer the question of the thread. I don't read in Scripture of Grieving in Heaven. I read where it says in Revelation 21:4 KJV
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

This let's me know that although it is a clever saying, certainly thought provoking, it doesn't line up with the Scripture. Therefore I must go with the Scripture.

We must be like the Berean Church. When the Apostle Paul came preaching, they got their Bibles out and followed behind him. They didn't have the mentality that oh this is the Apostle Paul, he is a good guy and we know he is of God. The Bible said they searched the Scripture to see if these things were so. Only then, after they found it in the Bible did they believe it.

We must remember that on Judgment day we will not be judged by our standards or by the laws of man but by the Word of God. If we sanctify ourselves and live by His Word only then will He say well done thou good and faithful servant.

2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Love everybody have a great night.

I totally agree. Bro Ravenhill was a man of God . He was a passionate preacher. Reading his insights of the scriptures in his books and his sermons immediately clue us in that he walked with God. Many today cant even hold a candle to him .
So dont knock him. But like many of us occasionally he was given to hyperbolic statements

I am very encouraged by the posts on this topic in the maturity and balance expressed. We can all agree that Leonard Ravenhill certainly was a 'man of God' whom God used and is still using today to speak strongly to us, but at the same time he was a man and not God and so it is with all. Even Elijah is described in the bible as being a man of similar nature to us.

I would like to develop this discussion (if that is OK) to ask what type of judgement do we think we should expect as believers when the Lord returns for us. This again is something that is often preached about in rhetorical language, that I wonder what is the reality.

If as believers all our sin has been judged and removed in Christ, can there be a replaying of and reminding of past mistakes or failures? Using the example of Elijah, do you think he will be reminded about his running scared from Jezebel? Or how about David, will he continue to feel guilty about his adultery? Or will we all be so taken up with the beauty and majesty of Christ that nothing else will take our attention? No guilt or shame.

I think this hymn by Zinzendorf (Translated by John Wesley) sums it up and topically Len Ravenhill often quoted Wesley's hymns.

Jesus, Thy blood and righteousness
My beauty are, my glorious dress;
‘Midst flaming worlds, in these arrayed
With joy shall I lift up my head.

Bold shall I stand in that great day,
For who aught to my charge shall lay?
Fully absolved through these I am,
From sin and fear, from guilt and shame.

Lord, I believe Thy precious blood,
Which, at the mercy seat of God,
Forever doth for sinners plead,
For me, e’en for my soul was shed.

Lord, I believe were sinners more
Than sands upon the ocean shore,
Thou hast for all a ransom paid,
For all a full atonement made.

I would like to develop this discussion (if that is OK) to ask what type of judgement do we think we should expect as believers when the Lord returns for us. This again is something that is often preached about in rhetorical language, that I wonder what is the reality.

If as believers all our sin has been judged and removed in Christ, can there be a replaying of and reminding of past mistakes or failures? Using the example of Elijah, do you think he will be reminded about his running scared from Jezebel? Or how about David, will he continue to feel guilty about his adultery? Or will we all be so taken up with the beauty and majesty of Christ that nothing else will take our attention? No guilt or shame.

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 11 Knowing, therefore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."

I take that to refer to the judgment of both believers and unbelievers(I know many Christians believe it only refers to the judgment of believers).

Paul says there that there is a real "terror" to this judgment. But we are not told exactly how that will be played out or applied to believers on that day.

Romans 14:10 also mentions the judgment of believers;

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."

I'm also reminded of 1Cor 3:11-15 which describes different levels of rewards and losses;

"For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

In verse 15 Paul says that some will "suffer loss" even though they will be saved from eternal damnation. That seems to indicate some kind of sorrow.

My musing is that it's probable that the "sorrow" will only happen at the time of the judgment seat as far as believers are concerned.

That said, I agree that there will be different levels of authority and/or privileges and responsibilities throughout eternity according to certain passages of Scripture.

The truly beautiful thing is that this new hierarchy will be inaugurated with unapproachable righteouness and unenviable perfection. Those who are crowned will toss their crowns at the feet of Him who alone is worthy.

Quote: "That said, I agree that there will be different levels of authority and/or privileges and responsibilities throughout eternity according to certain passages of Scripture."

I agree; but the mystery is that the word "privilege" will have no meaning. That is an earthly word that usually creates divisiveness and envy. In other words, no one in heaven or the new earth will be thinking "that guy is more privileged than me."

Nor will the person with the greater responsibility think "I am more privileged than that poor guy."

In regard to the judgment seat of Christ, I remember AW Tozer saying that it wasn't the things that he did that worried him so much as the things he could have done.

Is there any scriptural support given as to how long the judgment seat of Christ and its consequences lasts?