Old Testament saints part of the Church?

I'm not dogmatically settled into what I believe on this issue yet bit it has my interest because of recent conversations and discussions I heard take place.. Yet I believe scripture presents to us some intriguing possibilities regarding the Old Testament saints who died in faith and as I have been taught were saved by Christ and His atonement also as the rest of us. Yet the question is were these OT saints part of the Church? How does this statement sit with you - just because the Church was first openly revealed at Pentecost does not mean it did not exist before then? Why can that statement be made? Here are some fo the reasons,

3 - And Abraham said, "O Lord God, what will thou give me, since I am childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"

4 - Then behold the word of the Lord came to him saying, "This man will not be your heir, but one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir."

5 - And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."

6 - Then He believed in the Lord and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. (Gen 16:3-6)

Believing in the Lord and having it reckoned to us as righteousness is exactly what happened to us at our salvation when we were born again. It matches Abraham's experience to the tee.

Regarding Abraham and us,

1 - What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found?

2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.

3 - For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4 - Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.

5 - But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

6 - just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 -"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven, and whose sins have been covered.
8 -"Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.” (Romans 4:1-8)

18 - in hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "So shall your descendants be.”

19 - Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb;

20 - yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God,

21 - and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform.

22 - Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness.

23 - Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him,

24 - but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead,

25 - He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. (Romans 4:18-25)

What type of righteousness is there except the total and holy righteousness of God? Therefore, did Abraham have reckoned or credited to Him some different type or partial righteousness than we receive when we believe? Reckon means what we don't have is credited to us because of the righteousness of another. This other righteousness we don't have is imputed or credited or imputed to our account and we have what we were unable to get by our own efforts. So as Abraham sat under the stars and listened to God's impossible promises (humanly speaking) and obviously was given the gift of supernatural faith to believe were we seeing a early member of the church? Just because the church was first openly revealed at Pentecost does that mean it didn't exist before that but just was not yet brought into the full light?

29 ”“ Thus they provoked Him to anger with their deeds; and the plague broke out among them.

30 ”“ Then Phineas stood up and interposed; and so the plague was stayed.

31 ”“ And it was reckoned to him for righteousness, to all generations forever. (Psalm 106:29-31)

Yup! Just like us when we believe. We didn't slay
offending parties as Phineas did but what differs from this description of reckoned righteousness than our own?
If these believers had this righteousness the OT did the Holy Spirit dwell within them as He does each and every true church member who has had righteousness reckoned to them?

10 ”“ As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied f this grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry,

11 ”“ seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (I Peter 10-11)

We see the Spirit of Christ was within the prophets and not just wit or about them. If the Spirit was within them did He come and go or did He abide within them? There's no evidence He came and went. David prayed that the Lord would take not His Holy Spirit from Him. Did David know something of the Spirit dwelling within? Could Jeremiah speak of the new covenant to come etc. and not at least know something of the Spirit dwelling within him on a experiential basis? As for the prophets mentioned (Jeremiah included), if the Spirit of Christ was within them how could they not have righteousness reckoned to them just as NT believers experience when Christ indwells them?

There are more scriptures regarding the Spirit and Old Testament believers but I just don't have time right now to get at them. I'm just offering up these thoughts and something to think about and maybe discuss if anyone is inclined. Uncivil and rude spirits and attitudes turn me off and I'm not looking for that so if you want to go that route please just stay away. I saw a minster and another person discussing this theological issue not long ago and they had points of disagreement as they went thought it but they kept a most irenic and respectful attitude toward each other during their conversation. I was as impressed as much by attitudes as by this subject they were discussing. They both ended up agreeing that the atonement of Christ is the foundation for all and I concur and agree with that.

So,

- If Christ's salvation is present, forward looking and retroactive, can Old Testament believers who died in faith be counted as part of the church in its earliest forms?

Things to bear in mind,

- If Abraham and Phineas had the righteousness of God reckoned to them by faith, just as New Testament believers do when they are born again, did the Holy Spirit dwell within them?

- If the Spirit of Christ was within the prophets did He come and go from within them or did He abide within them continually?

That's all. Civility is possible.

Have a good Thanksgiving and blessings to you.

"Doc"

The following WORD indisputably answers your question,"Yet the question is were these OT saints part of the Church?"

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on the mount Sina, and with our fathers who received the living oracles to give to us." Acts 7:38

Acts 7:35-40 This Moses, whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel who appeared to him in the bush. He brought them out, after he had showed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years. This is that Moses, who said to the children of Israel, A prophet will the Lord your God raise up to you of your brethren, like me; him will ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the living oracles to give to us: Whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,Saying to Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.

Jesus said He would build His Church upon His Messiahship(Matt.16:18), which seems to imply a difference between the OT Church and the NT Church. But the NT also clearly teaches that there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile in the New Covenant(Eph.2:14-18). So it seems to me that while there is a distinction between the NT Church and OT Church, yet there is also a unifying of both under the banner of Jesus Christ.

The OT saints were justified by faith just like we are. They looked forward to Christ and we look back to His atoning death and resurrection. I look forward to the day when I will be with Christ and united with all the OT saints as one under Christ. How glorious it will be! Until then we must occupy until He comes, being filled with the Spirit and being busy about the Father's business, sharing the gospel at every opportunity.

In Luke 16, Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus in their respective final dispositions. The rich man is hopelessly in what could be described as Hell, with torment, and Lazarus is in a place of intimacy and comfort.

In the telling, Jesus has not yet ascended, and the church is not yet fully come to birth. It seems to me that He has established from the beginning a place for the wicked and the righteous- though the picture here lacks the mansions and golden streets upon which so many modern Christians have set their hearts.

It is just speculation of course, but there must certainly be a transitition of the intimacy from the bosom of Abraham to the bosom of Jesus. None the less, it seems unlikely that the eternal body of Christ would be two camps, one organized for those who entered eternity ahead of Jesus' time and those who came after.

just because the Church was first openly revealed at Pentecost does not mean it did not exist before then? Why can that statement be made? Here are some fo the reasons,

That is why the Old Testament Prophets longed to see the days of Jesus, the days of Holy Spirit dwelling on mankind.

Now the question is have we seen this glory?

Here is a insightful statement by Oracio:
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"So it seems to me that while there is a distinction between the NT Church and OT Church, yet there is also a unifying of both under the banner of Jesus Christ."
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In Hebrews 12:22&23 it says this:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,"

So in the city of God are:
1/God
2/Angels
3/Church of the firstborn (Jesus)
4/Spirits of just men made perfect.

Who are the 'just men made perfect'? Back a few verses in Heb 11:39&40 it tells us:

"And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

So as Oracio said, although different a 'church' in OT to NT, there is a coming together as they are NOW perfected together with the church of Jesus Christ so we all are partakers of the promise and citizens of God's Kingdom.

Oh how marvellous and perfect is the manifold wisdom of God!

Amen Heydave! I find it interesting to note that without us the OT saints were not perfected and that now they are.

Matthew Henry's commentary says concerning Hebrews 11:40,

"...since the gospel is the end and perfection of the Old Testament, which had no excellency but in its reference to Christ and the gospel, it was expected that their faith should be as much more perfect than the faith of the Old-Testament saints; for their state and dispensation were more perfect than the former, and were indeed the perfection and completion of the former, for without the gospel-church the Jewish church must have remained in an incomplete and imperfect state."

I want to point out the scripture in Acts that savannah shared:

"This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel who spoke to him on the mount Sinai to us." Acts 7:38

The Greek word there for church is ekklesia, the same Greek word used for the church of Jesus Christ throughout the NT. In reference to the OT saints it simply means the congregation or assembly of Israel in the OT, the people of God in OT times. So in that sense it was indeed a sort of "church". They were not just called out as individuals but were under a Theocracy and called to represent Yahweh as a people together. But in the New Covenant it is a different kind of "assembly" in that the New Covenant is much different from and better than the Old Covenant.

The Romans 11: 17-24 passage clearly indicates the church is a continuation of God's kingdom of the O.T.. Based on it yes the OT saints are part of the Church

The term "Church" is somewhat of an unfortunate translation. The underlying Greek text when read with the Septuagint gives not hint at any separation between OT saints and NT saints.

Ekklesia is used to describe the congregation of the Lord in the OT so it was only natural that the writers of the NT would use the same word.

I agree that the same term is used for the people of God in the OT as the NT. But the word Ekklesia just means 'congregation' or 'assembly'. In the same way it could be used of any secular group such as a political assembly. Where the distinction comes is in what type of people group this is being applied to. In the OT it clearly means the nation of Israel, including all those who have joined themselves to Israel as embracing the God of Israel. However this OT church could comprise of true believers and also unbelievers.

In the NT it means the Church of Jesus Christ, meaning all those who have become part of the bride of Christ through the new birth, irrespective of national boundaries. But it can also refer to the 'church' as a local gathering that could also comprise of believers and unbelievers (consider the letters to the 'churches' in Revelation).

So it is hard to be absolutely dogmatic about the use of the term 'church' as applying only to a particular entity. It can mean the Church of Christ of all true believers or it could refer to the professing church, which is a mixture of true and false. I would say that the church in the OT is a different distinction to the 'church in the NT.

Now who constitutes the people of God as a whole is a different thing altogether. God has always had His people, saved by faith from Abraham through to today. And all are brought ultimately into one people in Christ, who is the Jewish Messiah, but also the messiah of all men.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is born again and whose are they?

Who is the Word of God?

John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

How could the Spirit of Christ be in those who could not be born again? Who are the Body of Christ the Church His bride? Who are the ones who can see the Kingdom?

No one could be born again until Jesus Paid the Price and God now could give the Son those whom He choses to give to Him.

I guess that is enough for now, there is much, much more which seems to show, there is a difference in Old Testament Moses Law Saints and New Testament Christ born again Saints.

Ephesians 2:7-10 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Walk in Whom made He and me ONE.

Ephesians 2:14-22 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Wow!

In Christ: Phillip; one new man in Christ by His being birthed in me by the incorruptible Seed of the Father.

In Eph. 2:14-22 and Eph. 3:1-12 God's Word teaches us that the mystery hidden from times past was that Jews and Gentiles would be united as one man in Christ Jesus and that there would no longer be a wall of partition between the two entities.

"11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father."-Eph.2:11-18

So before the cross Gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise. In general there was a huge separation between the two(a wall of partition) and a real enmity between the two. Gentiles were cut off from the people of God(Israel) unless they became proselytes through circumcision and other ceremonial rituals (I know the case of Nineveh's awakening seems to have been an exception). But in general there was an enmity and wall of partition between Jew and Gentile. But under the New Covenant that is no longer the case as both have been reconciled to one another and to God through the cross and there is no longer any need for Gentiles to become part of Israel through circumcision and other ceremonial rituals.

Then notice the next verse there in Eph.2,

"19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God."

So again we're told that we(Gentiles) are no longer strangers and foreigners(as in OT times), but now "fellow citizens with the saints"(both OT saints and NT saints if we consider the context) and "members of the household of God"(together).

Then in Eph. 3:1-12 Paul expands on this same theme,

"1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles-- 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him."-Eph. 3:1-12

So if we consider the whole context of those passages in Eph. 2 and 3(as well as other scriptures) it seems clear to me that we are now all one together with the OT saints, "fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God." There is only one heavenly citizenship and one household of God and we are all part of it(both NT saints and OT saints). There is no favoritism in heaven of NT saints above OT saints or vice versa. In heaven we are all one under Christ Jesus.

On this earth there is the Body and Bride of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ, and it is different from the OT congregation of Israel. But not so in heaven and throughout eternity. We are and will be one people of God as that was the ultimate plan of God for His redeemed people.

KPYee also pointed out an important passage in Romans 11 which teaches that Gentiles are grafted into the olive tree of Israel(spiritual Israel, the people of God).

I believe that God's covenant with Abraham was two-fold, that his descendants would be numerous and that all the families of the earth would be blessed through him. (Gen:18).

One eternal kingdom, one Savior, one Head for the body.

Who has God created without love that we should not welcome into the kingdom, in our own day and from any day in history?

I believe these also are important relevant passages:

(This first passage was already pointed out in the OP but I wanted to point it out to make a certain point):
"11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. 13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed--God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."-Romans 4:11-18

"27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."-Gal. 3:27-29

So based on those passages we (both Jews and Gentiles) are all part of Abraham's seed spiritually through faith. Again, showing a unity between OT saints and NT saints.

At the risk of posting too much consecutively here I do want to say that Philip does bring up a good point about a distinction between OT saints and NT saints regarding the nature of conversion. We know that in OT times saints did not have the Spirit indwelling them and now we do through the new birth. So there was definitely a distinction in power to live a godly life.

6 - Then he (Abraham) believed in the Lord and He reckoned it to him mas righteousness. (Gen 15:6)

Why is that description the same to the tee of what happens to New Testament believers ttwhen they are saved? If Abraham became saved at that point then how would he not be a part of the church? How could Abraham believe what he did (Gen 15:5) without the enabling of the Spirit?

10 - As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry.

11 - seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (I Peter 1:10-11)

If the Spirit of Christ supposedly didn't indwell Old Testament believers then the phrase "the Spirit of Christ within them" is even more intriguing.

The church was first openly revealed at Pentecost but does that mean it didn't exist before it was openly revealed? How could Abraham have the righteousness of God imparted to him without the Spirit within him? Does God impart this righteounsess from the outside?

I don't know all the answers. I'm just propsing questions for civil discussion.