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Faith is a FREE GIFT to you totally initiated by God without out any of your doing at all!

sermonindex Dec 3, 2014

From Of Justification by Faith and Works BY William Law

"[Just-15] Churchman. What true Christian ever called good works our own works? Does not scripture say, "it is God who worketh in us, both to will, and to do?" Now if your faith may be called good and saving, because it is God's gift, and power within you; then a Christian's works may be called good and saving, or such as work out his salvation, because they are all wrought in God, and by his power working in him. But now, suppose one man to rely on his own faith, and another to rely upon his own works, they then are both of them carnally minded, and the faith of the one, and the works of the other, are equally the same worthless, filthy rags. On the other hand, do but (as plain scripture requires you) ascribe good works of the same original, and divine power, as a right faith must be ascribed to, and then faith and works are equally one power of God to salvation, because equally the same saving, redeeming, and sanctifying work of God in our souls.”

Most people realize that they can never be justified by the law or by works but then make efforts to obtain faith by their own efforts and right thinking. Now this is still filthy rags. If you are attempting to rely on your faith in Christ then you are as wrong as the person who relies on his works because you have made faith a work of your own efforts and abilities.

You must see that faith is a FREE GIFT and is a GIFT to you totally initiated by God without out any of your doing at all!!!

T
TMK Dec 3, 2014

Then why do NT writers (and Jesus) tell people to have faith?

It seems obvious that faith is something we have to exercise.

S
Sidewalk Dec 3, 2014

"Free gift" has been a misrepresentation of the gospel for a long time, containing a partial truth.

In the sense that the mercy of God cannot be demanded as payment for work performed- true. But God is not Santa Clause, He is the author of a covenant, and two must comply with the terms.

He offers it freely, but it will cost you your life. My repenting and believing is as nothing compared to the heavy lifting done on His part, but without it He cannot give me the precious gift.

S
Sidewalk Dec 3, 2014

Unable to remove repeated post frame...?

D
dolfan Dec 3, 2014

I blame Joseph Prince for a lot of confusion mongering on faith.

Why is not James enough. Faith without works is dead. Show me your faith, and I will show you works, he says. Why does he say it? "Faith without works is dead."

James never said "faith by works". He said, essentially, "works as faith". Paul said, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." What we do is an outworking of who we are. In Christ, we are made and being made like Him. So, what do our lives look like? Jesus. Our outworking lives, visible in what we do, prove who we are--Christ's or our own. Our fruit proves the kind of tree we are. We are "Jesus trees" producing His kind of fruit.

That is what faith does.

If faith is not doing this in my life, I do not have faith. If I do not have faith, I am not His. Simply put, faith is known by works. But for what I do, my own faith is an illusion, a construct of my own thinking and not even a work of the Spirit. Faith works.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2014

True faith is supplied to us in the Gospel message.

Grace gives us the ability to respond to what God has already done.

If we rely on our own ability and efforts to believe or even to will to have faith we remain in our filthy rags of works.

We do not have a part to play in the New Covenant. This Covenant was only made concerning us and we are just participants in it.

The gospel does not demand faith ... it supplies faith.

The gospel does not demand love ... it supplies love.

The gospel does not demand repentance ... it supplies repentance.

The gospel does not demand surrender ... it supplies surrender.

The gospel does not demand obedience ... it supplies obedience.

D
dolfan Dec 3, 2014

Grace is, indeed, God's gift to us and it enables us to obey Him. Obedience is what you described as our "respon[se] to what God has already done." I affirm that fully. Even my self willed obedience is self willed. Nothing good dwells in my flesh. I am always 100% tethered, bound to the gospel. The gospel did not, whale like, spit me out on the shores of promise for me to walk on as I see fit; the gospel IS the power of God unto my ongoing salvation and my sanctification. Grace is the gift of God that bears on its wings, to me, those abilities in Christ that now abide in Him in me. Christ in me, the hope of glory. The only hope. One step without Him is a walk into perdition. I need Him every second.

I supply nothing. What do I have that I did not receive? My life is hidden with Christ in God, who lavishes on me His treasures, spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. I testify that if not for God's supply of anything good, true, just, pure, lovely, virtuous, praiseworthy, all of my thoughts would only be corrupt continually.

I do nothing and I am nothing in myself. In Christ, I can do all things. In fact, all I do that is any good at all is in Christ and by Him. To Him be glory and honor forever.

I thank the Lord that He enables, empowers and intends for me to do what pleases Him and to avoid doing what displeases Him. What hope would I have otherwise? Oh, Lord I am nothing, and You are my all in all. Thank You, Father, for foreordaining good works for those whom You adopt to do them. If not for Your kind supply of works to do, we would be darkened concerning You. We would be without hope in the world. We would have no means here by which You would transform us from who we are and into the likeness of Your Son, Jesus.

God is truly, truly good.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2014

Dolfan,

I agree 100% with you.

I can count on His Love, Faithfulness and Goodness towards me.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2014

Gal. 2:19-21 message

19 What actually took place is this: I tried keeping rules and working my head off to please God, and it didn't work. So I quit being a "law man" so that I could be God's man. 20 Christ's life showed me how, and enabled me to do it. I identified myself completely with him. Indeed, I have been crucified with Christ. My ego is no longer central. It is no longer important that I appear righteous before you or have your good opinion, and I am no longer driven to impress God. Christ lives in me. The life you see me living is not "mine," but it is lived by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not going to go back on that. Is it not clear to you that to go back to that old rule-keeping, peer-pleasing religion would be an abandonment of everything personal and free in my relationship with God? I refuse to do that, to repudiate God's grace. If a living relationship with God could come by rule-keeping, then Christ died unnecessarily.

sermonindex Dec 3, 2014

"Faith doesn't demand, it supplies." Such a beautiful illustration. I'm saving that for future reference.

It seems everyone's perspective is enriching. I love this. We come from different backgrounds and see things differently but it (everyone's perspective) all seems fruitful. Praise Jesus.

Recently, in my study, I learned some of the Jewish perspective of faith. Here is the excerpt from "New light on the difficult words of Jesus" by David Bivin:

"Emunah (faith, belief) is closely related to spiritual weakness. Biblical faith is not so much belief in someone or something as persistence. It is "hanging in there" in spite of the circumstances. But faith is also the recognition of our dependance of God."

He further reaffirms this 'hanging in there' that is faith. By speaking of Jacob at Penial, terrified of what his brothers were going to do but goes to meet God and is weakened further. Yet God is strong.

Again, with the widows, generally a hopeless lifestyle back then. Their weakness, if they depended in God, was His strength.

Finally, elaborates with Jesus. 2 Cor. 13:4. 'He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by God's power'.

Let's 'hang in there' by leaning on God. His strength is perfect in our weakness.

O
Oracio Dec 3, 2014

So here's my two cents on this millionth Calvinism vs Arminianism thread :)

I'm leaning toward God being sovereign in bestowing His free grace and saving faith on underserving sinners, while simultaneously holding humanity responsible for their sins and for rejection the gospel call and offer. If you ask me how those two things are reconciled I do not have an answer. It is a mystery beyond my finite comprehension.

God's Word is clear that God COMMANDS all people to repent (Mark 6:12; Luke 13:5; Acts 3:19; Acts 17:30) and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15; Acts 16:31).

And God's Word is also clear that salvation (which includes regeneration) is a gift of God's grace and not something we can earn or produce in any way shape or form.

It is also clear that we "receive" Christ when we are saved(John 1:12).

So is our saving faith/belief in Christ something given to us and produced within us by God, completely apart from us, or do we exercise that saving faith on our own, or is it both God and man playing a part? I cannot say for sure between the first and third option but I would not go for the second one. It just seems evident to me from scripture that even if we can exercise saving faith on our own, God must help us to believe because we are too weak in and of ourselves to fully believe unto salvation. I'm reminded of the man who cried out, "Lord, I believe, help my unbelief."-Mark 9:24.

I think that when we sincerely endeavor to embrace the whole counsel of God's Word we can't go wrong. Many problems lie in emphasizing to an extreme one truth above another and pitting one truth against another when Scripture teaches both.

I
InTheLight Dec 3, 2014

Churchman went on to say...

[Just-56] Again, what difference is there between the old man and his deeds, which we are to put off, and the new man in Christ, that is to be put on, if he has no deeds, but what are maimed, wormeaten things? But hear now what Christ saith of the necessity, the excellency, and efficacy of Christian good works, in the following words, "Whosoever heareth my sayings and DOETH them, is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock. And when the floods arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded upon a rock." Here you see the excellence, the power and efficacy of Christian good works, compared by our Lord to the strength and firmness of a house built upon a rock, which floods and tempests cannot overthrow. How could he more fully show you, that they are the beginning, the continual strength and support of the divine life, than by comparing them to a rock on which a house begins, and from which it hath all its power of standing against all floods and tempests? How could he better show you, that this rock of good works, all proceeding from his power within us, is that very rock, on which he builds a church, against which the gates of hell shall never prevail? On the other hand, call anything salvation but Christian works, and then you have Christ's word for it, that you are "like the man that without a foundation built his house upon the sand, against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell, and great was the fall of it." Hear again what our Lord saith of Christian works, "A good man," saith he, "out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good"; but how could this possibly be, if Christian works could be no better than maimed, worm-eaten things? And here by the by, let me desire you well to observe, whence it is, that the good man bringeth forth good things. Not as your orator tells you, because Christ's goodness, or righteousness is outwardly imputed to him, and so made his. No, truth itself tells you the direct contrary, that it proceeds from the good treasure of his heart, and therefore is a goodness born within him. Now, whence has he this good treasure of his heart, and what is it? It is that treasure of a divine life, or nature, which Adam had at first, and to which he died, and which by the free grace and mercy of God, was secured to him and all his posterity, as a seed of the woman, a preserved remains, or power of his first divine nature. Christ in Adam, was his first glory and perfection of life; Christ remaining in fallen Adam, as a preserved seed of his first divine nature, is the only ground and foundation, of his being able to be made again in Christ a new creature. This divine seed of the woman, is so much of Christ remaining in him; and thence it is, that Christ alone hath power to be the mediator and redeemer of man, because that which is to be raised from death into life in us, is nothing else but the incorruptible seed of himself in us. This, sir, is that good treasure of the heart, out of which the good man bringeth forth good things, and is in itself nothing more or less, than a seed of Adam's first divine life within us, preserved by God's never-ceasing love towards man, as his covenant of grace and redemption within us, which seed, as it comes through the mediation of Christ to a new power of life in us, causes all those different sensibilities, called humility, penitence, fear, prayer, faith, hope, and earnest seeking after God.

T
TMK Dec 3, 2014

"If you ask me how they are reconciled I do not have an answer. It is a mystery beyond my finite comprehension."

But another much more simpler answer is that they cannot be reconciled and therefore it cannot be true. It is far too easy to say it is beyond comprehension.

O
Oracio Dec 3, 2014

If we rely on our own ability and efforts to believe or even to will to have faith we remain in our filthy rags of works.

If what is meant is that we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved, I completely agree. But if what is meant is that those who believe in man's free will in salvation are not saved, I completely disagree. There have been and are godly, saved, Spirit-filled men and women on both sides of this debate.

sermonindex Dec 4, 2014

We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved.

This was not a Calvinism vs Arminianism thread.

S
Sidewalk Dec 4, 2014

"We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved."

Nope. Too weak. Churches are filled with these people, once they are out in public they are indistinguishable from the sinners around them. They are insurance policy holders, content with the paperwork they believe will show up on their behalf at the judgement. They couldn't even find the book of James in the bible, much less a reason to read it.

They have done nothing to build within themselves substance that assures their salvation.

Assurance of standing with God is essential for a genuine Christian. In Ephesians 1:13 Paul speaks of being sealed by the Holy Spirit, an anchor that holds him, that gives him the freedom to live and learn, to make mistakes and recover, to recognize the net when he falls, to center on the cross when temptation is overwhelming, to keep him in perfect peace when the questions are too hard.

I'm still stuck on the covenant, an agreement between two parties with performance requirements on both sides. I believe God desperately wants to save the soul of every man, but the grim reality is that so many- most I would venture- are lost.

All because the covenant is offered fully and freely from the One who paid so dearly to make so easy for even the weakest of men to easily receive it- and they won't.

They want it their own way. The never ending product of Adam's original choice in the garden.

God has the right to see in me evidence of the regeneration He has purchased, doe He not?

O
Oracio Dec 4, 2014

We agree! - we cannot rely on anything we do to be saved.

This was not a Calvinism vs Arminianism thread.


Glad we agree! The reason I said this was another Cal vs Arm thread is because Calvinists say faith is solely a gift of God therefore man cannot exercise saving faith in Christ by his own free will, and Arminians say man has a free will and is able to exercise faith in Christ of his own free will.

O
Oracio Dec 4, 2014

I understand the concern pertaining to many who are under a false assurance and have a "dead faith without works". That is a valid concern and we must guard against that deception. The book of James does indeed address and warn of that.

On the other hand, there is also a valid concern pertaining to many out there who rely on their own self-effort or self-righteousness and fall into a works-based trap and legalism. We must also guard against adding human effort or works or legalism to the gospel. Paul devotes the letter to the Galatians and many other portions of the NT to warning of that danger.

S
Sree Dec 4, 2014

Everything in our life is Gift of God. Paul asks Corinthians 'what do you have that you have not received?'. Even our every breath, health, body are God's gift. We did not deserve it.

Say for example if we take 2 babies born with good health. One of them grows as a smoker and dies at the age of 40 due to lung cancer, while another lives till 80 due to good diet and exercise and clean habits. Now can the first person who lived as smoker say that God only gifted health to live till 40? Is he not responsible for losing what was given to him as a gift? So to say that those who receive something as gift has no responsibility is absolutely stupid argument.

Bible says Jesus is author of our faith. Which means he writes faith into us. But he can write it only depending on the space I give him. If I did not open my heart for him then where is the space to write? Will Jesus forcably snatch my heart and write his faith? If so then why does he call his disciples as men of less faith? The discples should then respond, you have written only little faith in me that is why I have little faith. The man who was father of demon possed boy cried out to Jesus to 'Increase his faith'. It is only God who gives and can increase it. But we need to seek knowing our lack of faith in different circumstances.

All the things in our Christian life starting from faith till baptism of Holy Spirit are given by God. But it can happen only to the measure of how much we open to him. That is why certain believers have faith to move mountains but others lack faith to eat certain food that God himself as cleansed. Both should give credit to God for the faith they have. There is nothing to boast.

That is why it is very important for us to not take the human part out of salvation. There is NO SCRIPTURE in Bible that will support the following assumption.


We do not have a part to play in the New Covenant. This Covenant was only made concerning us and we are just participants in it.

Whenever I question TUC on such theology he will post so many scripture that does not say anything about ZERO INVOLVMENT from MAN. If this is the true Gospel, why is there no clear verse in NT that says you can do nothing to lose your salvation, God just forces you into salvation.

Many posters here look into all the good things in the original post like 'do not trust on your own work' etc and then agree on whole thing. It is like eating a soup ignoring a dead lizard floating on it. If any of the part of the post is unscriptural then it is a poison. Barians would reject Paul straight away if he had preached this as Gospel. Because there is no scriptural proof.

I always compare Salvation to fire fighters saving men caught in a house on fire. Imagine if the fighters are on roof trying to look for those caught in fire. Those who shout for help will be seen and a rope will be dropped to rescue them from fire. Now to be lifted up I need to keep holding the rope. Also the proof of being lifted up is fire will not consume me or will not burn me continuously. In this example Fire is our sin, God is lifting us through Jesus and Holy Spirit. Now if I am being saved then sin will have no dominion on me.

If a person calls for help and gets the rope. But still continues to burn on fire then it means either he has not really called for help or he got the help as he once called for but is no longer holding the rope. So it is equally important to hold the rope to be lifted up. Now when I see someone buring in fire, I ask him to call for help and keep holding the rope as I hold so that you can be lifted up as well. If I do not tell that holding part then I am only preaching half the truth that cannot save him from fire.

It is very important to preach the human side to be saved. That is why Paul who wrote that eternal life is free gift from God, also wrote timothy to take hold of Eternal life. If we talk only about gift but not about taking hold then we are only deceiving people.

Now when I am finally lifted out of the house, will I get any credit for holding the rope? No the firefighter will get all the glory for saving my life. Same way God will receive all the glory for our salvation. There is no glory needed for holding what he has given. But it has to be held to prevent loss!

W
wijnand Dec 4, 2014

"True faith"
"Sovereign God"
"Free will"
"Free grace"

Are all terms used much these days, but I can't find them in scripture. I would try to use biblical terms, and attach your 'theology' on those biblical terms.

"What must I do to be saved?" -> Repent, Believe(, Be baptised). No matter if you are more calvinistic or arminian, both should agree with this one.

"Can we save ourselves?" -> No, our sins were seperating us from God. Jesus died for our sins and was resurrected so that He could make peace between us and God, and free us from our sins. This is from God, salvation is from God in Christ Jesus. So now, repent of your sins, believe on Him, cry out to Him and you shall be saved.

Etc.

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