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witnessing to the witnesses?

D
Delboy Apr 26, 2005

Hi, I would invite advice and comment from anyone who has had success in bringing a Jw to faith in christ or maybe you are a ex Jw,i posted this on bible base Ron's new sitewitnessing to the witnesses?This week, i have had a new guy start with the company covering an ajoining area to my field.I have been training him and have found out he is a JW has anyone got advice about witnessing to him,maybe someone has had success in this area.My experience has been that I make friendships with a Jw and make limited progress and just when light seems to be dawning in them they abruptly stop.I hav'nt seen any JW's come to faith yet...

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taco Apr 26, 2005

Hi Delboy, this is by no means definitive; but I will share my few experiences.A few weeks after I became a chrisitan a couple of JWs came to my door. I had been brought up in a christian home, knew the scriptures quite well and also had a fair knowledge of JW doctrine and history. So I invited these guys in for a chat. We chated for 3 hours, I tore into them and they tore into me. We got nowhere, of course. That night I was praying for them "Lord please have mercy on these poor decieved people, open their eyes". He opened my eyes! I got a sense of the love of God for these people, and also how badly I had treated them. I hope no one thinks I am talking about endorsing a dangerous cult; Iam talking about the attitude in our heart twoards those for whom Christ died.A couple of years later through interesting circumstances I ended up in a car with an ex JW. He was brought up in the JWs and had left because of personal reasons. He listened as I shared my own story. We had a good laugh - I told him that I had read all the books on how to convert the likes of him and he told me that he had read literature on how to convert the likes of me. He told me that as a child and young teen he had had a sense of God in his life which he now really missed. He said that he rememberd God's presence as he prayed every night. But now he was confused -didn't know what the true religion was. I just kept on encouraging him to remember Jn 17- "Your word is truth" and Jn 14 -"I am...the truth". When we were parting company he told me that he didn't expect to sleep that night. I tell that story because if that had happened 2 years earlier I would have treated him much differently, firstly I would have said that the experience of God he had as a kid was false (I mightn't have said it to his face but I would have believed it) Secondly I would have spent my time trying to convince him of the truth or falsity of various doctrines -the trinity, the 144,000 etc.A few years later again, I dabbled in a bit of chat room evangelism. I was in a JW chat room one night and a girl of 16 started up a private chat with me. She asked what I thought the main message of the bible was. I waxed eloquent for a while and then returned the question. She said "Salvation and faith in Jesus". I said, thats a strange answer for a JW. She began to tel me how herslef and her family (she was third generation JW) had began to read the bible for themselves with a new hunger and that this was the message that they were seeing. She was a "regular pioneer" ie a full time door to doorer. She said that she had learnde over recent months that all she was trying to do was get people into her organisation but that now all she did was encourage people to read their bibles andto trust in Christ. I was amazed a JW doing this full time! Again, I knew not to try to spend time convincing her to get out or to believe certain things. Rather I encouraged her and her family to keep gaoing in the direction they were going -reading the bible for themselves and looking to God's Son. Every week I logged on and chatted to this girl, every week her (and her family) were opening up to more and more of God's truth. I just kept on encouraging her and answering any specific questions she asked. After a few weeks I loged on and she told me that her parents went up to the elders of the Kingdom Hall that week and told them what they had been learning from the scriptures. They asked that since the JWs was bible based, would the elders be willing to examine these things in the light of Scripture. They got the boot. This was nothing to do with me, but I felt blessed that God opened a little (browser) window for me to see his work being carried out, even in the midst of such darkness. I believe that somebody was praying for these folks.It takes the power of the holy Spirit to break into such bondage. Mere intelectual arguments won't do it. Although it is good to have an answer, to help unravel stuff as peple come away from it.

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Bomar Apr 26, 2005

There are some really good techniques in a Chick tract...The Crisis. The scriptures speak for themselves.http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0026/0026_01.asp

R
rookie Apr 26, 2005

I witness to witnesses here at Ucla. We have ex JWs in our bible studies. Some of the Scriptures we have declared are:Heb. 11:32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. The Jws teach that only 144000 Jws are part of the first resurrection. Here in the last verse of this text, it speaks of OT saints who are part of the "better resurection." They cannot reconcile this thought with their doctrine.Also: 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:\t“Rejoice, O barren,\tYou who do not bear!\tBreak forth and shout,\tYou who are not in labor!\tFor the desolate has many more children\tThan she who has a husband.”In this last verse, "For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband," again this verse conflicts with their teaching of the 144000 Jws.They believe that only 144000 Jws are born from above. All other Jws remain carnal and earth bound. This again is in conflict with the verses above.Also they teach that Jesus was an angel before His incarnation. Heb. 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say:\t“You are My Son,\tToday I have begotten You”? And again:\t“I will be to Him a Father,\tAnd He shall be to Me a Son”? Here Scripture teaches, "for to which of the angels did He ever say:, that the Father never spoke this promise to any angel. In ChristJeff

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deltadom Apr 26, 2005

My friend Jim was an Ex-Jehovah Witness he helped build there building but when he became born again they refused to have anything to do with him and his and are house was the only place that the Jehovah witnesses didnt knock it was funny to see them miss his house jim had gathered so much evidence. I dont think in our new house they are such as frightened as Jim has gone to be with the lord now and it is funny , I always find it hard preaching to mormons

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Delboy Apr 26, 2005

Taco,thanks for sharing,your experiences are helpful,I've also heard the references that Jeff mentioned on a couple of downloads on SI by Mike Theule.thanks Guysif there are any ex-Jw's your insights andtestamonies would be great to hear :-)

P
philologos Apr 26, 2005

Hi Delboy I've not seen a JW come to Christ although there are Christian organisations which support ex-JWs. When they come to my door I usually introduce myself as a 'Jesus Witness'. I then distinguish between a 'Jehovah's Witness' and a 'Jesus Witness', explaining the consequence of the coming of the Spirit is always to make the recipient a Jesus Witness!Act 1:8 KJV But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.This, of course, is why the early Christians could never be Jehovah's Witnesses.

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taco Apr 26, 2005

...although there are Christian organisations... What is a christian organisation? Christian is a noun not an adjective.:-P Just having a laugh. You deserve it.:-)

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judgement65 Apr 26, 2005

This might help given to me by an ex jw . These questions have been put together using information from many different sources. All verses are from the NWT so that the translation of these verses cannot be questioned by Jehovah's Witnesses. If the Watchtower Society decides to change any of these verses (like they did with Heb 1:6), then the obvious question for the individual Jehovah's Witness is why did the WTS change their own Bible."...keep testing whether you are in the faith" (2Cor 13:5)1.\tThe WTS claims it uses the Bible as it's "supreme authority". Where in the Bible does anyone count their time in preaching on a slip of paper and are assigned record cards of activity, determining this as a "gauge to their spirituality"? Where in the Bible are Pioneers, Auxiliary Pioneers, District Overseers, Circuit Overseers, Bethelites, and Kingdom Halls? 2.\tTo what was Jesus referring to by the term "this temple" in Jn 2:18-19? In Jn 2:21 John clearly states that when Jesus used the term "this temple", he was referring to his body. If what the WTS teaches about Jesus' body after his death is correct, then how do you explain these verses? 3.\tIf the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal "active force", why does he speak directly and refer to himself as "I" and "me" in Acts 13:2? 4.\tCol 1:16, in talking about Jesus, says that"... All [other] things have been created through him and FOR HIM". If Jesus were Michael the Archangel at the time of creation, would an angel have created all things for himself? Isa 43:7 says God created "everyone ... for my OWN glory ..." 5.\tThe WTS claims that Ezekial's prophecy of the Jews returning to their land is fulfilled in their organization. Ezek 36:24, 28 says "and I will take you out of the nations and collect you together out of all the lands and bring you in upon your own soil" and "You will certainly dwell in the land that I gave to your forefathers, and you must become my people and I myself shall become your God." If this is fulfilled in the Watchtower organization, then how are they returning to the land of CANAAN as promised to the forefathers? Ps 105:8-11 6.\tConsider also what is said concerning those who fulfill this prophecy. Ezek 36:22 says, "Therefore, say to the house of Israel, this is what the sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: 'not for your sakes I am doing [it] 0 house of Israel but for my holy name, which you have PROFANED among the nations where you have come in." Since the WTS claims that it is spiritual Israel and fulfils these prophecies in Ezekial, how do Jehovah's Witnesses believe they have profaned God's name among the nations? 7.\tSince the WTS prohibits the use of blood transfusions, why does it permit the infusion of albumin, clotting factors, and gamma globulins, all of which are derived from human blood? Since Acts 15:29 clearly refers to the old Jewish law of not EATING blood (Gen 9:4, Lev 3:17, Deut 12:16), and since the WTS has changed its teachings so many times on major issues like organ transplantation, the definition of "generation", the year of Armageddon, etc, etc, and simply calls these changes "New Light", how can you be sure they won't some day change their teachings on blood transfusions and refer to the change as "New Light" also? 8.\tDoes Prov 4:18 really justify an organization replacing doctrines and failed prophecies with new doctrines and prophecies, or does it simply contrast the benefit to the "righteous" of obeying a wise father (Prov 4:10-19)? False teachings can be called "false words" and Prov 13:5 says, "A false word is what the righteous hates..." When the WTS changes a teaching to something that is totally different, is it like a light that is getting brighter and brighter or more like having one false light (word) completely turned off and a totally different light turned on? Do you think the WTS would be critical of any other organization that changed its teachings as many times on as many different issues over the last 100 years as the WTS has? 9.\tRegarding Jesus' return to earth, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that it occurred in l914 as an invisible return. That event is described in Zechariah 14:4, which states, "... and his feet will actually stand in that day upon the mountain of the olive trees which is in front of Jerusalem on the east." If Jesus has no body and if his return was invisible, how do you explain this verse? 10.\tPaul said, "... for as often as you eat this loaf and drink this cup, you keep proclaiming the death of the Lord, until he arrives." (1Cor 11:26). If Christ arrived in 1914, why do Jehovah's Witnesses continue to partake of the bread and wine? Shouldn't they have stopped in 1914? 11.\tSince the WTS claims "apostolic succession", can it trace its roots all the way back to Christ (Mt 16:18)? If so, who was it that "passed the torch of God's spirit" to C. T. Russell when he founded the organization? What was the name of this individual or individuals? 12.\tThe NWT translates Jn 1:1 as "... and the Word was WITH God, and the word was a god." How can the Word (Jesus) be "a god' if God says in Deut 32:39, "See now that I -- I am he, and there are NO gods together with me..."? 13.\tThe WTS teaches that the 144,000 of Rev 7:4 is to be taken literally. If chapter 7 of Revelation is to be taken literally, where then does the Bible say that the 144,000 will come from? See Rev 7: 5-8. 14.\tSince the WTS currently rejects most of the teachings of its founder, Charles Taze Russell (who was president of the organization from 1879-1916), and since they also reject "judge" Joseph Franklin Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president from 1916-1942, how can you be sure that in 25 more years, the WTS won't reject the current president, Milton Henschel (1992-present), as they did Russell and Rutherford? What kind of confidence can you have in an organization that rejected its founder and first two presidents for the first 63 years of its existence - over 50% of the time they have existed?! 15.\tIf there is no conscious awareness after death, how could the "spirits in prison", who lived during the time of Noah, be preached to by Christ after His death (I Pet 3:18-20) and how could the good news be "declared even unto the dead" (I Pet 4:5-6)? 16.\tSince the WTS has received "new light" regarding the 1914 generation, and completely changed their views on this, does this mean that all the former Witnesses who were disfellowshipped years ago for the same view the organization is now teaching will automatically be accepted back into fellowship again? Were these ex-Witnesses in fact disfellowshipped for what is now taught as "the Truth"? 17.\tIf there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two? 18.\tOn pgs. 66, 69, 211, 423, 560, 648, and 719 of Jehovah's Witnesses--Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, reference is made to The Finished Mystery, which was the 7th of the Studies in the Scriptures series published by the WTS in 1917 (pg 66, 719), and was the major publication of the WTS at that time. On pgs. 88, 648, and 651, a picture of this book appears, complete with the winged disk symbol of the Egyptian sun god Ra on its front cover. Is it true that The Finished Mystery taught that Christ was the Almighty of Rev 1:8 (pg 15), that Christ established a "Church" (pg 17), that Christ returned invisibly in 1874 (pg 54, 60, 68). that the Holy Spirit has a personality (pg 57), that the great pyramid of Giza was God's stone witness and was used to predict the year of Armageddon (pg 60), that Armageddon would definitely occur in the spring of 1918 (pg 62), that Christ was crucified (pg 68), that Leviathan of the Bible refers to the steam locomotive (pg 85), and that Michael is the Pope of Rome and the angels are his bishops (pg 188)? According to "current" WTS teachings, Christ returned invisibly in 1914 and in 1918 chose the WTS as his earthly organization because they were the only ones teaching "the Truth". If this was so, then Jesus would have known the teachings of the WTS as put forth in The Finished Mystery, published in 1917. Do you really think that Jesus would have chosen an organization which taught so many things that were not correct according to "current" WTS teachings and are no longer taught as "the truth"? 19.\tIn Jn 20:28, John refers to Jesus in Greek as "Ho kyrios moy kai ho theos moy". This translates literally as "the Lord of me and THE God of me". Why does Jesus, in Jn 20:29, affirm Thomas for having come to this realization? If Jesus really wasn't the Lord and THE God of Thomas, why didn't Jesus correct him for making either a false assumption or a blasphemous statement? 20.\tIf Christ will not have a visible return to earth, then how will he be seen by "ALL the tribes of the earth" (Mt 24:30), and by "EVERY eye" (Rev 1:7) when he returns? How can Christ "APPEAR" a second time (Heb 9:28) if he will not have a visible return to earth? 21.\tIn Rev 19:1, where does it say that the great crowd will be? 22.\tIf the Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force, how could he: Be referred to as "he" and "him" in Jn 16:7- 8 and Jn 16:13-14; Bear witness (Jn 15:26); Feel hurt (Isa 63:10); Be blasphemed against (Mk 3:29); Say things (Ezek 3:24, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, and Heb 10:15-17): Desire (Gal 5:17); Be outraged (Heb 10:29); Search (I Cor 2:10); Comfort (Acts 9:31); Be loved (Rom 15:30); Be lied to and be God (Acts 5:3-4)? 23.\tWhat is the correct spelling of God's proper name, "Yahweh" or "Jehovah"? If Jehovah's Witnesses maintain that "Yahweh" is more proper, why do they misspell it "Jehovah"? If the name of God is so important, then should you not only pronounce it correctly, but spell it correctly too? 24.\tJn 1:3 says that Jesus created "all things", but in Isa 44:24, God says that he "by myself created the heavens and the earth" and asks the question "Who was with me?" when the heavens and the earth were created. How can this be since if Jesus had been created by God, then he would have been with God when everything else was created? 25.\tIf the soul is the body, why does Jesus make a distinction between the body and the soul in Mt 10:28? 26.\tIn Col 1:15-17, the NWT inserts the word "other" 4 times even though it is not in the original Greek (See Gr- Engl Interlinear). Why is the word "other" inserted? How would these verses read if the word "other" had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6. 27.\tIn Phil 2:9, the NWT inserts the word "other" even though it doesn't appear in the original Greek (See Gr-Engl Interlinear). What is the reason for inserting this word? Is the word "Jehovah" a name? See Exo 6:3, Ps 83:18, and Isa 42:8. How would the verse read if the word "other" had not been inserted? What does scripture say about adding words to the Bible? See Prov 30:5-6. If Christians are persecuted for the sake of Jehovah's name, why did Christ tell the first Christians that they would be persecuted for the sake of his (Jesus') name, instead of Jehovah's (Mt 24:9, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:12,17, Jn 15:21, and Acts 9:16)? If the name "Jehovah" is so important, then why does Acts 4:12 say, "There is salvation in no one else; for there is not another name [vs 10 Jesus Christ] under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must get saved"? If the teachings of the WTS are correct, would this not have been the logical place for God to have used the name "YHWH" or "Jehovah"? Since the word "Jehovah" didn't appear until at least the 12th century, and since the term "Jehovah's Witnesses" wasn't used by the WTS until the early 1930's, doesn't this mean that the first century Christians were not known as "Jehovah's Witnesses"? 28.\tThe WTS makes the claim, "Like the Primitive Christian Community - the religious publication 'Interpretation' stated in July 1956: 'In their organization and witnessing work, they [Jehovah's Witnesses] come as close as any group to approximating the primitive Christian community..."- Jehovah's Witnesses- Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, pg 234, and on pg 677 of the same book, a caption appears titled "Like the early Christians". Do Jehovah's Witnesses pray the "Our Father" (Mt 6:9-13), break bread together (celebrate the Eucharist) frequently (1Cor 10:16-17, 1Cor 11:26-27), come together on Sunday to break bread (Acts 20:7), confirm the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands (Acts 8:15-17, 19:5-6, Heb 6:2, 2Tim 1:6), ordain (appoint) priests (elders) through the laying on of hands (Acts 6:5-6, 13:2-3), pray to Jesus (Mt 11:28, Acts 7:59-60, 1Cor 16:22-23, Rev 22:20), anoint the sick with oil (Mk 6:12-13, Jas 5:14), often kneel down to pray (Acts 9:40, 20:36, 21:5, Lk 22:41), consider themselves to be witnesses of Christ (Acts 1:8, 10:39, 13:31), have deacons (1Tim 3:8, 10, 12), fast from than Jesus Christ (Acts 4:10-12), celebrate Pentecost (Acts 2:1, 20:16, 1Cor 16:8), have special people that look after widows and orphans (Acts 6:1-4, Jas 1:27), occaisionally drink wine (1Tim 5:23)? If not, then how can Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be like the primitive Christian community? 29.\tIn Rev 14:13, how can the dead be "happy" and find "rest", if there is no conscious awareness after death? 30.\tIs it true that the WTS's prophecy that Armageddon will come before "the end of the generation of 1914" (You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pg 154), is no longer taught as "the Truth"? If so, then does this mean that this teaching of the WTS, which they have taught as "the Truth" for decades, was really a false teaching? Since the WTS claims that they are the "one channel that the Lord is using during the last days of this system of things" (Jehovah's Witnesses-Proclaimers of God's Kingdom, pg 626) and that the governing body is "the mouthpiece of Jehovah God", does this mean that God changed His mind about this teaching and the definition of "generation"? Is it possible that God could change His mind? Has the WTS ever changed their mind before about a teaching that they once taught as "the Truth"? The WTS has taught that Armageddon was going to occur in:1914 - The Time Is At Hand, 1888 (1911 ed.), pg 101; Zion 's Watchtower, 1/15/1892, pg221918 - The Finished Mystery, 1917, pg 62, 4851925 - Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920, pg 89-90, Watchtower, 7/15/24, pg 211WWII - Watchtower, 9/15/41, pg 2881975 - Kingdom Ministry, 6/69, pg 3; AWAKE!, 10/8/68, etc.Before the end of the generation of 1914 - You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth, pg 154; A WAKE} 10/8/95, pg 4Since the WTS claimed that their teaching that Armageddon would come before "the end of the generation of 1914" was "Jehovah's prophetic word" (WT, 5/15/84, pg 6) and "the Creator's promise" (AWAKE! 10/8/95. 9/22/95, 9/8/95, etc. pg 4), therefore speaking "in the name of God" (Deut 18:22), then according to Deut 18:20- 22, doesn't this mean that the WTS is truly a modern day false prophet? See Mt 7:15, 24:11, Mk 13:22, 2Pet 2:1, 1Jn 4:1, Rev 19:20,20:10. 31.\tIf the name Jehovah is so important, then why is it never used in the entire Greek New Testament? If men edited out the proper name of God, "YHWH", when they copied the New Testament, as only the WTS claims, thereby altering God's word, then how can we have confidence in ANY of the New Testament? Should we discard the New Testament or the WTS as unreliable? 32.\tIf Jesus was executed on a torture stake, with both hands together over his head, as only the WTS teaches, why does Jn 20:25 say "... unless I see in his hands the print of the nailS...", indicating that there was more than one nail used for his hands? Two nails would have been used if he was crucified on a cross. 33.\tCan Jehovah's Witnesses hold and discuss openly with other Witnesses opinions that differ from orthodox WTS teachings? If no, why not? 34.\tThe NWT translates the Greek word "esti" as "is" in almost every instance in the New Testament (Mt 26:18, 38, Mk 14:44, Lk 22:38, etc). See Greek-English Interlinear. Why does the NWT translate the same Greek word as "means" in Mt 26:26-28, Mk 14:22-24, and Lk 22:19? Why the inconsistency in the translation of the word "esti"? If the NWT were consistent and translated the Greek word "esti" as "is" in these verses, what would these verses say? Why did so many of Jesus' disciples leave him when he told them they must eat his body in order to have eternal life? See Jn 6:25-69, Mt 26:26-28. 35.\tRev 20:10 says, "And the Devil... the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever". Where will the Devil, the wild beast, and the false prophet be "tormented day and night forever and ever"? Likewise, Rev 14:9-11 says, "... If anyone worship the wild beast... he shall be tormented with fire and sulphur... And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever..." Where could "anyone" be "tormented... forever and ever"? 36.\tJesus Christ is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isa 9:6 ("For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us... And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God..."). Jehovah is referred to as "Mighty God" in Isa 10:20-21. How can this be if there is only ONE God? 37.\tIf the WTS claims they are not "inspired" but does refer to themselves as "God's spirit-directed Prophet", what is the difference? Is there such a thing as an "uninspired prophet"? Why would anyone be part of a religious organization which claimed that their teachings were NOT inspired? 38.\tIn the NWT, every time the Greek word "proskuneo" ( ) is used in reference to God, it is translated as "worship" (Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, 19:4, Jn 4:20, etc.). Every time "proskuneo" is used in reference to Jesus, it is translated as "obeisance" (Mt 14:33, 28:9,28:17, Lk 24:52, Heb 1:6, etc.), even though it is the same word in the Greek (see Gr-Engl Interlinear). Especially compare the Greek word "prosekunhsan" used with reference to God in Rev 5:14, 7:11, 11:16, and 19:4 and used with reference to Christ in Mt 14:33, 28:9, and 28:17. What is the reason for this inconsistency? If the NWT was consistent in translating "proskuneo" as "worship", how would the verses above referring to Christ read? 39.\tThe NWT translates the Greek word "kyrios" ( Gr - lord) as "Jehovah" more than 25 times in the New Testament (Mt 3:3, Lk 2:9, Jn 1:23, Acts 21:14, Rom 12:19, Col 1:10, lThess5:2, 1Pet 1:25, Rev 4:8, etc.). Why is the word "Jehovah" translated when it does not appear in the Greek text? Why is the NWT not consistent in translating kyrios (kurion) as "Jehovah" in Rom 10:9, 1Cor 12:3, Phil 2:11, 2Thess 2:1. and Rev 22:21 (see Gr- Engl Interlinear)? 40.\tThe NWT translates the Greek words "ego eimi" ( ) as "I am" every time it appears (Jn 6:34, 6:41, 8:24, 13:19, 15:5, etc.), except in Jn 8:58 where it is translated as "I have been". What is the reason for the inconsistency in this translation? If "ego eimi" was translated in Jn 8:58 the same way it is translated in every other verse in which it appears, how would Jn 8:58 read? See Exo 3:14. 41.\tIn Rev 22:12-13, Jesus Christ, the one who is "coming quickly", says of himself," I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end". In Rev 1:17-18, Jesus, the one who "became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever", refers to himself as the first and the last. Rev 21:6, in speaking of God, says, "...I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end .,.". God is also referred to as the "first" and the "last" in Isa 44:6 and Isa 48:12. How can this be since by definition of these words there can only be one first and one last? 42.\tJesus uses the phrase "Truly I say to you,..." over 50 times in the Bible. In the NWT, the comma is placed after the word "you" every time except in Lk 23:43, where the comma is placed after the word "today". Why is the comma placed after "today" instead of after "you" in this verse? If the translation of this phrase in Lk 23:43 was consistent with the translation of this phrase in all the other verses in which it appears (see concordance), and the comma was placed after the word "you", how would it read? 43.\tJn 1:3 says in reference to Christ, "All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence". How could Christ have been a created being if ALL things came into existence through him? If Jesus was a created being, then according to Jn 1:3, Jesus would have had to create himself. 44.\tIf the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does IThess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"? 45.\tIf Christians are persecuted for the sake of Jehovah's name, why did Christ tell the first Christians that they would be persecuted for the sake of his (Jesus') name instead of Jehovah's (Mt 24:9, Mk 13:13, Lk 21:12, 17, Jn 15:2 and Acts 9:16)? 46.\tIn Mt 1:23, who is Matthew referring to here that has been given the name which means "With Us Is God"? 47.\tThe Bible says that ONLY God is our savior (Hos 13:4, Isa 43:11,45:21, etc.). How can it be then, that the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus Christ is our savior (Lk 2:11, Phil 3:20. Tit 2:13, 3:6, 2Pet 1:1, 2:20, 3:18, etc.)? 48.\tReferring to Isa 14:9-17, if there is no conscious awareness after death, how could Sheol "... become agitated at you in order to meet you on coming in..." (v.9), how could the souls in Sheol "... speak up and say to you..." (v.10-11), how could the souls in Sheol when "...seeing you will gaze even at you; they will give close examination even to you, [saying,] This this the man'..." (v. 16-17), and how would you be aware that this was happening? 49.\tHeb 3:1 refers to "holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling". In Mk 3:35, Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother..." Therefore, according to the Bible, whoever does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if the Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people go to heaven? 50.\tHeb 11:16, in speaking about some of the faithful people of the Old Testament (Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc.) says, "But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven..." and,"... their God for he has made a city ready for them." The footnote on the word "city" refers to HEAVENLY Jerusalem of Heb 12:22 and Rev 21:2. How can this be since according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society, the only people who will go to heaven are the 144,000 spirit anointed who have been chosen from people who lived after Christ died? 51.\tIn Lk 24:36-39 and in Jn 20:26-27, Jesus showed his disciples the wounds in his body as proof of his resurrection. If Jesus' body had been destroyed by God after he died, how could Jesus show the disciples his body which had the wounds in his hands, feet, and side and claim that he is not just a spirit, "because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have" (Lk 24:39)? 52.\tIf Christ was created by God and was the wisdom of God (Prov 8:1-4, 12, 22-31), then before Jesus would have been created, God would have had to have been without wisdom. How is it possible that God could have ever been without wisdom? 53.\tRev 7:11 says that "before the throne" is in heaven where "all the angels were standing". Rev 14:2-3 says "And I heard a sound out of heaven ... And they were singing as if a new song before the throne ...". Rev 7:9 says,"... look, a great crowd ... standing before the throne...". Rev 7:14-15 says, "...There are the ones that come out of the great tribulation ... That is why they are before the throne of God ..." Therefore, if "before the throne " means in heaven (Rev 7:11, 14:2-3), and the "great crowd" is "before the throne" (Rev 7:9, 7:14-15), where does that mean that the great crowd will be? 54.\tIn Lk 20:37-38, how could Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob be "all living to him (God)", since they all died hundreds of years before Jesus said this? 55.\tIf the soul dies when the body dies, how could the "souls" of Rev 6:9- 11, who were of those who had been "slaughtered" (i.e., killed), cry out "with a loud voice, saying: 'Until when Sovereign Lord ..."? 56.\tIn Mt 28:19, Jesus tells his disciples to baptize "people of all the nations ...in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit". Why would the disciples be instructed to baptize in the name of anybody or anything who was not God? Do Jehovah's Witnesses follow the command of Jesus and baptize "in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit"? 57.\tIf the human soul IS the person, how could the soul go out of a person (Gen 35:18) or come back into a person (1 Kings 17:21)? 58.\tThe Watchtower Society teaches that the earth will never be destroyed or depopulated. How can it be, then, that God says in Isa 51:6,"... the earth itself will wear out, and its inhabitants will die like a mere gnat...", and that Jesus says in Mt 24:35, "Heaven and earth will pass away...", and that John says in Rev 21:1 that he saw"... a new heaven and a NEW earth, for the former heaven and the FORMER earth had passed away, and the sea is NO MORE."? 59.\tReferring to Lk 12:4-5, what would be left of a person after they were killed that could be thrown into Gehenna? 60.\tWho or what does the spirit of Christ (Phil 1:19, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9) refer to? In Gal 4:6, how is it possible that the spirit of Christ could come into our hearts? How is it possible that the spirit of CHRIST could reside in someone? If what the Watchtower Society teaches is true, how could Paul make this statement if Christ was a spirit person residing in heaven? 61.\tIn Jn 8:56, Jesus says, "Abraham your father rejoiced greatly in the prospect of seeing my day, and he saw it and rejoiced". Since Abraham died hundreds of years before Jesus said this, how could Jesus say that Abraham "saw it and rejoiced", if there is no conscious awareness after death? 62.\tIn Jn 6:51, Jesus says that a person must eat "of this bread" in order to "live forever", and that "the bread that I give IS my flesh". In Jn 6:63, Jesus says "... Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." In Jn 6:54-55, Jesus says, "He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life..." and "... for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink." Do you partake of the flesh of Christ, as Jesus commanded, in order to have life in yourself and in order to live forever? 63.\tIn Acts 17:31 Paul says, "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a MAN whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead". Did Paul believe that the future judge of the world, Jesus Christ, would be an immortal MAN or an invisible spirit creature? 64.\tThe WTS teaches that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will not reside with Christ in his heavenly kingdom. How then do you explain Mt 8:11 in which Jesus says," But I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens"? 65.\tEvery true Christian would agree that we should follow the commands of God. In Mk 9:7, God the Father commands us to listen to Jesus. Do you follow this command and listen to Jesus? After all, Jesus died for your personal sins (1Jn 2:2, 1Pet 2:24). Jesus tells us to go directly to him (Mt 11:28-30), and the Father commanded us to listen to Jesus. Why? Because JESUS gives us everlasting life (Jn 10:28), and so that JESUS will enter our house and be with us and give us the right to sit on his throne (Rev 3:20- 21). Do you pray to Jesus as Paul and the early Christians did (1Cor 1:2)? Do you partake of the flesh of Christ as Jesus commanded (Jn 6:51)? If not, then are you following the command of the Father who said "Listen to him"?

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Rahman Apr 26, 2005

Hi Delboy,Well i started out a Catholic up to age 6, and from then was raised a JW and did not get free till i got saved at age 29 ... i agree with Taco when he stated, "It takes the power of the Holy Spirit to break into such bondage. Mere intelectual arguments won't do it"JW's orginizationally is run with militaristic percision and self sacrificing volunteerism ... JW's are a well prepared people with great empahasis on the prideful promotion of their being the only right religion and the incessant brainwashing indoctrination of their beliefs via extensive and exhaustive "teaching" ... Even their Sunday morning "preaching" is "teaching" ... Truth be told by comparison to most evangelical churches/orginizations they're like ants to our being grasshoppers, especially amongst the laity ... Unlike so many of our laity, JW's know their funny looking altered to suit New World Tranlations ... Amongst a few of the things that floored me when i first got saved was the lack of cohesiveness amongst the true Body, and the fact that the true Church with the true Gospel was so lackadaisical as to it's spreading ... Anyhow over on ...From Jonah, to Jeremiah, to Ezekiel ...https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=3250&forum=35#21631... someone asked me, how did i escape the JW's? ... This was my short reply ...Quote:"That's a long story, but basically what happened was when i was about 13, or 14, i was sitting in a Tuesday nite Bible study, studying the book of Revelation, about the 144,000, and how the JW's believe that they are representative of a small class of JW's who they believe are the only ones going to heaven ... Well i was sitting there, and the Spirit of God (who at the time i only believed was an impersonal active Force) said to me, "This is not right, this scripture is about actual Israelites ... Tell them so" ... So i raised my hand and told the presiding overseer that God had just told me to tell them that what he was saying wasn't right, and that He was talking about actual Israelites in the end time ... Well needless to say that went over like a lead balloon, and the more the brother tried to make me see it from JW doctrine perspective, the more i insisted he was wrong ... My mom and dad were just totally outdone with me, and i was subsequently barred from speaking, or asking any questions in any Tuesday nite meeting after then ... Actually i got branded a member of what they call "the evil slave class" ... It wasn't until i was 28 that i formally broke off with the JW's. i was at that time living a very sinful life because my dad had told me that if i wasn't going to be a Witness, that i may as well live my life for the devil, and so since i didn't know any better, that's exactly what i did ... Until out Lord met this leper on my road of filthiness" ... (Note: My recounting of the 144,000 being actual Isrealites is only posted as an event that transpired in my life and not to spark a long debate as to whether they actually are or not ... If you believe otherwise i have no contention, argument or debate as it will keep none of us out of heaven)Now as to how i witness to JW's, i usually approach them foundationally first from their history which i find a lot of the "newbies" dont know ... They like to quote Is. 43:10 as their origin, but are floored to find out that the began from a jaded Presbyterian PK ... It was 1956, and i was 6, when my Dad became a JW, and so i was raised under the accursed fear that as they were predicting once more, the world would come to an end in 1976 ... When that didn't happen (at age 26) that really bent me outta shape in that my Dad made me miss University because of this belief (if you check their history their membership really fell off after 1976) ... That and the fact that i'd been denied all the wonderful family holiday times in between made me actuall hate JW's for a long while ... But anyhow i get them on the history (because i know it) of Charles Taze Russel as their founder, Judge Rutherford, and their long list of prophetic blunders as to the worlds end, and Christ rule beginning in 1914 tho scripture says all the world will be aware of Christ return, so i nail them with the "false prophet" scriptures ... But what happens with me is that they mark me off their list at the local congregation as a member of "the evil slave class" after i tell them i was raised a JW and am one no longer ... Here are a few helpful websites on JW history, etc ...Comparing Jehovah's Witnesses History With Jehovah's Witness Historyhttp://www.watchman.org/jw/whist1.htmJehovah's Witnesseshttp://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/Jwitness.htmlHelping Jehovah's Witnesses Find Freedom in Jesus (John 8:36)By Charles and Cindy Meekhttp://faithfacts.gospelcom.net/jw.htmlUseful Scriptures For Witnessing to Jehovah's Witnesses http://www.cephasministry.com/jw_useful_scriptures.htmlHeres also a past thread on SI with info;Jehovah's Witnesseshttps://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&;order=0&topic_id=1233&forum=35&post_id=&refresh=GoPS - i must say that there are a few good things that came out of my time in the JW organization ...- i was taught public oration in their ministry school ...- Going from door to door made me unafraid to approach people ...- It got me used to standing alone when required ...- It instilled an awe, majesty and fear in me of a Most High God the Father that i don't much see in most church upbrought saints ...- Due to it's error regarding Jesus and the Holy Spirit as co-members of the etrenal Godhead i have an even deeper appreciation for them both ...- And being raised in a "law" bound religion really gives one such an appreciation for "grace" ...Of which all are now used of the Lord to His benefit ... All things work together for the good of we that love the Lord and are called according to His purpose ... Thank you Jesus for your calling out of darkness into your marvelous light! ... Amen

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Delboy Apr 26, 2005

Well, what can i say,but thanks Rahman i appreciate your testimony ill look at those links to.Daniel thanks for the list of points thanks for the time oh and welcome to SIjust to fill you in,My wife gets regular visits from a Jw and elders wife at the moment.My wife says things are polite and that the Jw is intrigued that our door is open.I have a guy who has just started work with my company who is a Jw,He is low key about it,tell me are they evangelistic outside of the door to door work?I have deliberatly held back at this stage but have said i would like to discuss things with him,Do you think this is the right approach?I'm completely secure in who i am,and want to really show a genuine love for the Guy.I pray god by the Holy spirit open their heartswatch this space!would appreciate your prayers

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Delboy Apr 26, 2005

Hi Ron,thanks Bro,as always.. solid :-)

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PreachParsly Apr 27, 2005

Christian is a noun not an adjective. Not to take sides but this is what Dictionary.com says about Christian... :-P :-P It is a noun and a adjective. Chris·tian (krschn)adj. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents. Showing a loving concern for others; humane. n. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

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philologos Apr 27, 2005

Not to take sides but this is what Dictionary.com says about Christian... It is a noun and a adjective.which serves as a warning never to take your doctrine from a dictionary. The Bible only ever uses 'Christian' as a noun.

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PreachParsly Apr 27, 2005

which serves as a warning never to take your doctrine from a dictionary. The Bible only ever uses 'Christian' as a noun.That's true.

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