The Madness Of the Gay Lifestyle.

There was a program up here in Canada on CBC radio (which is funded by Canadian tax-payers) the other day on gay rights, etc, etc. This particular gay couple they interviewed wants their children/child to be gay too, and this created some controversy over the air-way. Another gay person wishes their child not to be gay because they don't want their child to go through the same riddicule as they did when they were growing up. Our announcers only ask questions like this when it comes to these kinds of topics - "what do you think?", and not, "It is written....", nor base fact on science, etc.

So here's a thought that came to my mind a few years back when I was meditating on the Scriptures and the God of all goodness, mercy, justice, and truth (and I've never heard it elsewhere, but that's not the point): If being gay is so "natural" as they say (and all sin is pretty much natural to a sinner, although a sinner has his/her favorite sins and other sins he/she may frown upon, until awakened and more importantly born-again), then how about this for a test (please bear with me)- If say 100 full-blown gay, not bi-sexuals, people were to be confined to live on an island for 80 to 100 years, and a group was to go over to that island after this amount of time to see how they were living, they would find them all dead, the whole works of them. Why? Well, gay people can't reproduce naturally, it's naturally and scientifically an impossibility. Therefore, being religious or not, is not the point I'm trying to make. The fact is, their gay-lifestyle would ultimately destroy them off the face of the Earth. I mean if everyone was gay, the whole human-race would be destroyed. So, how is this gay lifestyle any good in the least bit way? Not only is it condemned by God, but the very behavior is a destroyer of life in itself. God's truth is so simple that even a little child can understand. Full-stop.

To God be the glory alone. God help us to speak the truth in love to all gay people who are deceived, and to those straight, educational ones who advocate for gay-rights without knowing what on earth they're talking because they haven't weighed the behavior either scientifically or in the light of Truth. Love your gay neighbrs, but never compromise the Truth of God's Word. Never. God help us all to be bold and loving in this war for the souls of men and women.

LMH-

I think your argument would have much more force if homosexuals kept to themselves like in the old days. But the militant homosexual movement is aggressively going after innocent children.

A TV show on abc family channel recently aired a kiss between young boys. So much for family friendly.

Christians need to demonstrate "true" love for others by being honest with them about their sin not compromising and say nothing. Jesus did not love less because He told those who were/are in sin the truth, He loved them because He was willing to risk all and speak truth into their lives.

its not unloving to share God's truth with another person, the most unloving thing you can do is keep quiet and say nothing when you see a brother/sister in sin

rdg

If their sin is going to find them and destroy them, why do we attempt so...much to prevent them from what they want?

God's word will never fail and never end. The godly endures forever.

If we live Godly lives and co[n]vert people, slowly but surely. It doesn't matter what the sinner does, eventually they will met their own end.

We can try to persuade people but at the end of the day. You can't force people to love Jesus (1st commandment). Let people reap what they sow. God will have you reap what you are sowing.

Sow freedom. Let go. Watch God's glory fill areas of your life.

I get your point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would go something like this: "There is an inevitability to the pervasive presence of homosexuality, so why fight it? Just preach/teach/disciple in love and let the chips fall. God will judge in the end."

Here's the rub. We have to speak Gospel truth. Gospel truth is that marriage is God's designed reflection in the flesh of His own image as the triune God and a type of that consummation of union between Christ and the Church in the end of all things. God determined that His image is reflected in the marriage of male-female and the one flesh union of that marriage; He made no allowances for any other. It is set in creation. Gospel truth is that if we neglect to understand and teach this with particularity, we are also marring the image of Christ in the eyes of the lost world. We offer all sorts of extrabiblical ideas of men about marriage that lack the power of Holy Spirit conviction and otherwise fail to persuade; an example of this is the ubiquitous "homosexuality is bad for children/bad for society" argument. It is true that homosexuality is bad for children and society, but it is not the essence of biblical truth about who Christ is and what marriage is to say so. It is true but it is not the bottom line biblically. The bottom line biblically is who God is, how He chose in His will to reveal Himself and His own image and ways, and what He calls us to do in response to that divine revelation. That IS inescapable and is essential to the nature of the gospel itself, which is the power of God unto salvation and alone has the power to transform the human heart. Also, on peripheral truths (i.e., homosexuality is bad for children, bad for society) people are not necessarily persuaded, and the power of conviction is not necessarily present in the argument.

God specifies this word, "abomination", as a thing that disgusts Him numerous times. If the abomination were attributable to God in some truthful way, it would pollute God Himself.

Watch. In the OT, the Hebrew "toebah" (H. 8441, Strong's) is translated 117 times as "abomination" in the KJV (Strong's is not keyed to every English translation, so I'll go with KJV here). The first use of the word in this manner in the KJV OT is Lev. 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Then, in Lev. 18:26, God calls all of the prohibited actions in Lev. 18:3-25 "abominations". Not abominations in the eyes of men or a nation (as the uses of toebah prior to Lev. 18:22 had referred to), but abominations to God. And, note -- all of them are sexual abominations. Why? Same reason why homosexuality itself disgusts Him -- each is a sin against the body, a physical rejection of the sovereignty and nature of God.

Following the principle of scriptural interpretation known as "principle of first use" or "principle of first mention" -- which, is also a tool employed in statutory and constitutional construction and interpretation -- we look to the subsequent uses of "toebah" and see if the uses of the word share this feature of pertaining to that which mars the reflection of God in His creation. We should expect to see it not exhaustively so, but as pervasively so and be able to explain exceptions from the text.

I'm not going to list them. (I will give you a link to the list: www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/H8441/tow%60ebah.htm)

Suffice to say that of the 108 times "toebah" is used after Lev. 18, 46 of those are directly called abominations to/of the Lord or are otherwise phrased where God personally places the label of abomination on a thing/person/action. About 10-15 of them are "abominations to men" or "abominations to kings" where the thing/act/person described is something that that would be disapproved by men or kings or some other person in a practical sense. The remainder of them, with perhaps a handful of arguable exceptions, are occasions where a prophetic statement declares a thing/person/action as an abomination in reference to sins and idolatries of Israel in their rejection of God.

So, abomination, then, is thoroughly saturated in the sense of being that which rejects God or in some manner attacks the reflection of God's image of Himself in His creation.

No wonder that homosexuality is treated this way. But, we cannot just "let it be". The Gospel IS the assertion of God's kingdom, God's way as the Way, and comes to us in the person of God the Son. If we fail to proclaim the perfection of Jesus as the fullness of God bodily, one reason where we fail to do this is in letting what is an abomination to His nature continue without labeling it so. Jesus did not "let it be". He expressly defined marriage and He did so in terms of the nature of who God is. He even relied on the principle of first use in terms of what marriage is -- "from the beginning it was not so." We have to do that overtly and up front and out loud, or we are guilty of neglecting salvation. We are guilty of failing to declare the whole counsel of God.

This is not just an issue of getting people saved. This is an issue of proper discipleship and training in the Way of Jesus. It is a church issue. We can't just let the chips fall. We can't just let people reap what they sow. We can't sow freedom in silence when the word that is being sown to the world is that bondage is freedom.

LoveMeekHope,

I do not understand your point other then that one should not be confrontational. The gospel by its very nature is confrontational.

You are disagreeing here - to me this is confrontational.

On the other hand, if you are talking about a militant confrontation that is an entirely different issue. I do not see this as the issue.

You confuse me...do not want to be cranky...

LMH,

I don't think anyone here wants violence, lack of freedom, lack of love, lack of service, etc. I think it is unfair to say, "Well, I can't get you all to see the Light of non-violence, freedom, etc. You won't listen to me so I'm leaving." For one, my hope is you will not leave/reduce your attention here. There's a lot to treasure here.

There is a healthy discussion here. Don't run from that.

First, you and I would agree 100% that the church has nothing --- NOTHING --- to offer or to receive from government. "Forcing" anything through government is manifestly not the role of nor the power of the church. Nothing I've stated should be taken as political; the gospel of Jesus Christ can in no way be brought to bear on the hearts of men by any government or part of it.

Now, may I take a point you made and rebut it from Scripture. You said, "The Gospel is NOT the assertion of God's kingdom. It's individuals living in it."

Matthew 4:23 says, "And Jesus went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people." It was after this that Jesus "went up on the mountain" and taught Himself as the embodiment of truth and the judge of truth as God Himself.

The gospel of the kingdom. That was the truth of the message of Jesus on the whole. It wasn't finished by Jesus. He commissions His church still to preach it. Matthew 24:14: "...this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." The gospel of the kingdom.

There is only one gospel, LMH. It is the assertion of the kingdom of God. NOT in a sense of it overcoming the world through Christian action and all the Myles Munroe "kingdom now" kind of nonsense and the dominion theology folks. It is the assertion of the arrival of the king, His kingdom, and His terms for peace, among other things.

You are right that new wine doesn't go into old wineskins. But, the new wine is the new life of Christ in us. We're made into new wineskins. As new wineskins full of new wine, we have a message -- the gospel of the kingdom. That gospel asserts the truth of who our Lord and Savior is -- God the Son. Who God is must be stated. How will they know if they do not hear? How will they hear without a preacher? It has to be said, LMH. What must be said is the "whole counsel of God", as Paul said in Acts 20:27.

This is more than merely delivering the kerygma to the lost; but, we also must faithfully state the truth to the church itself. As we deliver the kerygma to the lost, and they ask who Jesus is or challenge who He is with their ideas about sex and marriage, we have to tell the truth. Do we say it lovingly? Well, sure. If I lack love, genuine love for the lost, my proclamation is powerless. I have nothing. It is not unloving to tell someone who Jesus is in truth. And, who Jesus is in truth is the God (Elohim, Gen. 1) who created us in His image (John 1) and who created us male and female in His image, and designed marriage as THE fleshly expression of His triune ("Elohim") self in the world by making two people -- male and female in His image -- one flesh also IN His image. And, Himself present in it as the one flesh whom God has joined together. That's who He is. We have to say it. If we neglect it, we are to be judged.

It is not lording over someone to tell them the truth. I am not saying we should try to codify this in human law. Human government is going to be consumed in the last great carbon footprint of 2 Peter 3:10. I wouldn't depend on fallen men and fallen governments to deliver a chicken from a coop, let alone deliver a dead man to life and a sinner to eternal life. But, proclamation of gospel truth is not that at all. I'm for leaving government completely out of it and staying out of it myself. (I don't even vote for this reason.)

You are not facing an engrained belief that opposes you in this. Maybe somewhere else on another topic; truth is I haven't paid that much attention if it is so. But, not on this. This is not about you changing us, sister and friend. It is about all of us changing to conform to the image of Jesus. The same Jesus who asserted the gospel of the kingdom, commissions us to continue it, gave Himself for us to do it, and sent the Holy Spirit to us so that we can while we declare the whole counsel of God to the lost world and to a church that is dancing on the edge of an abyss of apostasy and false teaching. Including, certainly, in this last day, the truth of who He is as reflected in marriage and the dangers of abomination. Yes, ma'am, that's who He is and that's what He is doing.

speak the truth in love of course! we are called to do so but that is not what is happening in our churches today. sin is washed over and people are deceived into thinking they can live how ever they want and still follow Jesus.

all we can do is share with those who are lost in their sin, if they choose to continue sinning and living for self then we can do no more but pray for them.

i think we can agree though that love is never silent, when we see a brother/sister in sin we should speak truth to them, point them to Jesus and pray for them.

rdg

LMH,

For the record, I love the heart you expressed in that last post. I also agree with it.

Debate. It is a weary thing. Easy to get caught up in. I am as liable as anyone. I would rather edify than debate.

SI, for me, the forums at least, are sounding boards. I spend a lot of time doing what so many here do: thinking about the things of God. With the focus on home fellowships that SI encourages and prayerfully equips, the forums have been useful for me as a place to express, share, and take scriptural stands and challenge and to be challenged. This seems vital to me, LMH. As we move forward in time, we need the skills that warfare demands. It seems safe to me to do that here. I get challenged, and it is mostly lovingly done. I learn when to hush, too, and learn how to lovingly bow out of a matter. Still developing that. :)

So, pick what matters. Engage what matters most. But, do not get weary to the point of frustration. This place is uniquely beneficial. There is such a depth of solid, timely preaching that, although ages old in many cases, these timeless truths are still alive and matter now maybe more than ever.
Couple that with the bump and run coverage you get in these discussions and, well, it helps you. It prepares you.

So, stick around.

here's the way I see this issue.
Love the sinner hate the sin.

Pray for them, Minister to them. That is our duty. Follow the teaching of Jesus and Paul on witnessing.
Let them know that they will not inherit the Kingdom of God, if they die in their sins. You can find tha tin the book of Romans.

If they reject you they are rejecting Christ.
Wipe your feet at the door and move on.

We are living at the end and it is important that every Christian be vigilant and listen to the Holy Spirit, and do what he says to do.