Response to Franklin Graham

I wish they would simply respond to the point made in his post rather than spouting rhetoric we have heard ad nauseum.

It makes them seem disengenous.

The truth is, in the overwhelming majority of cases, that a person will not be injured by police if they 1) don't commit a crime or 2) don't resist when arrested.

I realize there may be exceptions but in today's society it seems generally this would be true, regardless of a person's race.

In regard to "mass incarceration" are they arguing those incarcerated have committed no crime deserving same? If so, I agree that would be a travesty. But I strongly suspect that is not the case.

Wow.

I had no idea he had said that.

Police are increasingly amok and increasingly act as government thugs. Just last month in Madison, AL, police threw an old man from India to the ground for NO REASON. Broke his neck. He was visiting his son in an affluent neighborhood and he was tackled and slammed HARD to the ground when he did not "obey" a simple command to stand still. He is elderly, thin, was unarmed and did not speak good English.

Police have a horrible job. But, as time passes and Paul's aduration regarding civil authorities as enemies of God's people (yet servants to bring about His judgment) becomes more apparent, the lie is put to Graham's reasoning.

We are not to MERELY obey and submit to these human adversaries. We can love them while not subjecting our hearts to tyranny. We can love them while saying, "There is one God and you, O arm of the law are not Him. We can obey God and submit to powerful, armed thugs with badges in love. But, let us not confuse submission with subjection to tyranny. As the love of many waxes cold, and power is the overarching lust of government and its agents, we should see that things are deteriorating rightly as they must. Jesus is coming, and the powers of civil government will yield, submit, subject, burn and confess His lordship in their own judgment. We rightly leave that to Him.

Meanwhile, Graham is wrong. This relates back to my post past week. I never dreamed he would follow that earlier comment with this one. I teach my daughter that government is a God ordained evil that He tolerates and utilizes as man rejects His authority. Government is not to be loved, nations are not to be revered, and societal orders are not to be venerated. I am fully Scriptural here. She has one Potentate. One Nation, His Kingdom. One Law -- His Word. One Hope -- His Redemption. One Enemy -- Satan and his spiritual wickedness in high places in Earth, and his agents in flesh, which include civil government from the UN to the Dog Catcher. She is called to a royal priesthood, not a ruling policehood. She is part of a peculiar people, not a patriotic one. She belongs to a holy nation called out of darkness and into Christ's marvelous light, not to an unholy fallen conglomerate of fleshly interests aligned against Jesus. That is her hope, not.....this. I hammer this home as often as I can.

Graham has no idea what reality is in the American street. He can pontificate about parenting all he wants. Fact is America long ago planned and carried out the substitution of the plantation with the prison-house and every politicial party and stripe has coalesced with intent to subject black people to a life of poverty, want and servitude, of drunkenness, divorce, illegitimacy and criminal activity born of hopelessness, and the powers have long leveraged the fallout of their design to grow their own power and to ingratiate the people to them for their controved protection, amassing great wealth to themselves in the form of revenue and political control.

Graham is screaming at the outcome of the problem, not the cause of it.

I do not care one whit for Sojourners and do not endorse them. The whole lot of them is wrong. Satan is behind all of this and we should not be ignorant of his devices, especially now. Be sober, be vigilant. Do not believe anyone who tells you we are good.

iv just read the full letter here , and you brothers have all taken frank out of context ,,

The way im reading this letter is that he is against that sort of racist comments and the comments that you are suggesting he is making are the verry comments from some unknown source that he is refuting...

look at this

Dear Rev. Graham,

We write to you in the spirit of Matthew 18: we aim to reconcile with you. You have sinned against us, fellow members of the body of Christ. While your comments on March 12 were just a Facebook post, your post was shared by more than 83,000 people and liked by nearly 200,000 as of Monday morning, March 14, 2015. Your words hurt and influenced thousands. Therefore, we must respond publicly so that those you hurt might know you have received a reply and the hundreds of thousands you influenced might know that following your lead on this issue will break the body of Christ further.

Frankly, Rev. Graham, your insistence that "Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and everybody else” "Listen up,” was crude, insensitive, and paternalistic. Your comments betrayed the confidence that your brothers and sisters in Christ, especially those of color, have afforded your father’s ministry for decades. Your instructions oversimplified a complex and critical problem facing the nation and minimized the testimonies and wisdom of people of color and experts of every hue, including six police commissioners that served on the president’s task force on policing reform.

In the nadir of your commentary, you tell everyone to "OBEY” any instruction from authorities and suggest that the recent shootings of unarmed citizens "might have been avoided” if the victims had submitted to authority.

And you bluntly insist, "It’s as simple as that.”

It is not that simple. As a leader in the church, you are called to be an ambassador of reconciliation. The fact that you identify a widely acknowledged social injustice as "simple” reveals your lack of empathy and understanding of the depth of sin that some in the body have suffered under the weight of our broken justice system. It also reveals a cavalier disregard for the enduring impacts and outcomes of the legal regimes that enslaved and oppressed people of color, made in the image of God ”” from Native American genocide and containment, to colonial and antebellum slavery, through Jim Crow and peonage, to our current system of mass incarceration and criminalization.

As your brothers and sisters in Christ, who are also called to lead the body, we are disappointed and grieved by your abuse of the Holy Scriptures. You lifted Hebrews 13:17 out of its biblical context and misappropriated it in a way that encourages believers to acquiesce to an injustice that God hates. That text refers to church leadership, not the secular leadership of Caesar.

Are you also aware that your commentary resonates with the types of misinterpretations and rhetoric echoed by many in the antebellum church? Are you aware that the southern slavocracy validated the systematic subjugation of human beings made in the image of God by instructing these enslaved human beings to "obey their masters because the Bible instructed them to do so?”

Your blanket insistence on obedience in every situation exposes an ignorance of church history. God called Moses to resist and disobey unjust authority. Joseph and Mary were led by the Spirit to seek asylum in Egypt, disobeying the unjust decrees passed down by authority figures in order to ensure the safety of Jesus. And Paul himself resisted authority and ultimately wrote Romans 13 from jail.

In modern times, Christian brothers and sisters abided by Paul’s command to the persecuted Roman church. They presented their bodies as living sacrifices. They refused to conform to the oppressive patterns of this world. Rather, they were transformed by the renewing of their minds. (Romans 12:1-2) Throughout the Jim Crow South, in El Salvador, and in the townships and cities of South Africa Jesus followers disobeyed civil authority as an act of obedience to God ”” the ultimate authority, the Lord, who loves and demands justice (Psalm 146:5-9, Isaiah 58, Isaiah 61, Micah 4:1-5, all the prophets, Luke 4:16-21, Luke 10:25-37, Matthew 25:31-46, Galatians 3:27-28). Likewise, Christians who marched in Ferguson, Mo., New York City, and Madison, Wis., follow in the holy footsteps of their faithful predecessors.

As one who understands human depravity, your statement demonstrates a profound disregard for the impact of sinful individuals when given power to craft systems and structures that govern millions. The outcome is oppression and impoverishment ”” in a word, injustice.

Finally, if you insist on blind obedience, then you must also insist that officers of the justice system obey the U.S. Constitution, which protects the right of all to equal protection under the law. Yet, reports confirm unconscious racial biases in policing, booking, sentencing, and in return produce racially disparate outcomes within our broken justice system.

Likewise, you must also call on officers to honor their sworn duty to protect and serve without partiality. The Federal Bureau of Investigations director, James B. Comey, acknowledges that law enforcement has fallen short of this mandate : "First, all of us in law enforcement must be honest enough to acknowledge that much of our history is not pretty. At many points in American history, law enforcement enforced the status quo, a status quo that was often brutally unfair to disfavored groups.”

Let us be clear: We love, support, and pray for our police officers. We understand that many are doing an excellent job under extremely trying circumstances. We also understand that many officers are burdened by systems that routinely mete out inequitable racialized outcomes.

For the past nine months, many of your fellow Christian clergy have been engaged in sorrowful lament, prayerful protest, spirit-led conversations, and careful scriptural study to discern a Godly response to these inequitable racialized outcomes within America’s justice system. We have wrestled with God like Jacob, begging God to bless us with peace in our streets and justice in our courts.

Rev. Graham, as our brother in Christ and as a leader in the church, we forgive you and we pray that one day you will recognize and understand the enduring legacy of the institution of race in our nation.

Now is the time for you to humbly listen to the cries of lamentation rising nationwide. We do not expect you to be an expert in racial issues, police brutality, or even the many factors that go in to our complicated and unjust criminal system. We do, however, expect you to follow the example of leaders and followers of Jesus throughout the scriptures and modern history. We expect you to seek wise counsel and guidance first from those who bear the weight of the injustice and second from other experts in the field.

Ultimately, we invite you to join us in the ongoing work of the ministry of reconciliation.

In Jesus,

frank says this is what you said ..(refuring to those who he is refuting }

Frankly, Rev. Graham, your insistence that "Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and everybody else” "Listen up,” was crude, insensitive, and paternalistic.

He says your instance that BLACKS AND WHITES [ECT]

frank said any of these things ,,,,have a closer read of the artical

wopss hang on i thought that was franklins open leter and it was a responce to some one else and love meek hope was responding to that,,,my bad ,,my bad

sorry it would be interesting to read what he has oridginaly said in his letter

can that be posted please so i can see what that says

"It is sad to see a man judged so quickly that is standing up for righteousness in many ways. Where are the pastors in the land speaking boldly on issues and for truth and righteousness?"

I agree with you Greg that Franklin Graham is standing up for righteousness, and out of all of the false prophets and teachers that are perverting the gospel, why some on this forum are going after Franklin Graham is beyond my understanding.

I know that part of it is a misunderstanding of the scriptures and the call of God on His servants to stand up in the public arena and hold governmental leaders accountable for their actions.

There are many Christians that are on the right side of the issues that are putting their trust more in government and politics than in the living God, and that have an inordinate view of patriotism, and those that are critical of these men are just in doing so, but I don't believe that this is the case with Franklin Graham, who is consistently lifting up the name of Jesus Christ and calling men to repentance and salvation.

"When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn." (Proverbs 29:2).

God is the one that is over all authority, and government was His idea. What makes government good or bad is the leaders. There have been godly leaders over nations that have done the will of the Lord, and there have been ungodly leaders such as our current president that have been out of alignment with God on almost every point.

Franklin Graham is only speaking the truth, declaring God's will, and in early America many of those in authority in government were themselves men of God, and they addressed the issues of their day.

The seperation of Chruch and state has been carried too far by athiests, liberals, and misguided Christians to the extent that God is not to have any part in our government, even to the point of having the ten commandments removed from a courhouse.

I have a picture in my living room of the First prayer of the Continental Congress of 1774 in which all of these governmental leaders were on their knees before the Lord praying for wisdom and guidance.

Franklin Graham is not perfect, but I beleive that he does have a love for the truth, and he is bringing to light the issues that the enemy would like to keep hidden that are destroying our nation.

God is judging America, but what is our attitude going to be? Some Christians seem to be more like the sons of thunder that if they could would call fire down from heaven to destroy our nation.

However, God is looking for men and women that would stand in the gap and make up the hedge, confessing our own sins and the sins of the nation, and crying out to God that in His wrath that He would remember mercy.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." (2 Chronicles 7:14).

Our trust and faith is not in government, it is not in political parties but it is in the King of kings and the Lord of lords, who is Lord of heaven and earth, and who has instructed us to pray that His Kingdom would come, and His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven.

It is not from a disregard of "standing up for righteousness in many ways" that I speak about Graham's comments. If that is what he were doing here, I would join him.

That is not what he is doing. His remarks are ill informed both biblically and factually.

The church needs to wake up and shake off this notion that we have any friendship with the state. Everything it is opposes Christ. And while we benefit from the orderliness of structure and the peaceableness orderliness affords us to spread the gospel, it remains true that the same beast feeds on the weak for the sake of the strong, and we cannot afford to lose sight that this beast is only sharpening its skills to kill, steal and destroy so that in the wrath to come, it will be hardened to cement its own judgment and steeled with lethal efficiency and force against believers. It is already unprecedented in scale, ferocity, hate and indiscrimination. The beast is preparing to turn on us.

The American police officer is, at root, the antiChrist equal to the Taliban or Boko Haram, carrying out orders of his master to destroy. America is no different than every other kingdom of this world as being opposed to Christ, and never has been. We are deceived if we think this country is somehow "based on" God's Word. There is no human invention that is any bit sacred because it "bases itself" on the Bible. Civil, corporate and all government of men is invented. The carnal mind cannot comprehend or receive the things of God; government that claims any love of Him is a lie of carnal men gaining advantage by stealth and deceit.

So, Graham is deceived. He thinks police powers are benign except to evil doers. He is of the stripe that says if you are not doing evil, you have nothing to fear. He does not know what he is talking about, and in his current state of ignorance he is better off filling shoe boxes.

Truth and righteousness in this day must be addressed not in terms of yielding to the well armed, but loving the tormentors AND correctly identifying the agents of hell as objects of the gospel plea. It is NOT unrighteous to not stop, drop and roll on the command of a police officer. It is NOT a lack of truth in the inward parts to not do so. The day is already here when the deceiver will give us messengers in Jesus' name who insist that we must serve Caesar. Graham has taken the bait on that, and he has hooked himself terribly. Even if he also speaks about injustices and government rejection of God, it is just sound and fury.

The problem with Graham's statement is that he completely avoids the issue of satanic power and generational curse that is on some people of color. I agree with TMK that it is pretty stupid to say that we are "enslaving" black people in prison if they have committed legitimate crimes to put themselves there. Are they being targeted? Possibly! But did they still commit a crime? Most likely. So how do you balance the two?
There is a total disregard for authority in America today, both for parents and people of authority in our lives. Kids have zero respect for their parents, so therefore have zero respect for their teachers and then zero respect for anyone including those who serve on the police force. Graham is obviously Republican and I can hear all of them cheering as they read this statement. But he completely misses the point that there is a deep seated generational attack from the devil on many communities of African Americans that needs to be addressed. If that is not dealt with just telling them to OBEY is useless. Some have never been taught of required to obey because their parents haven't and on and on.

I grew up as some people would call "white trash" . And the same issue is happening there, maybe on an even equal level. You go to some white trash neighborhoods and you see profiling all the time! The same generational satanic power is prevalent there.

I agree with Dolfan that the government is not a God ordained institution. God has one institution and that's the Church. Some people go over board with that but most completely avoid the fact that the government is not and has never been under the inspiration of God's Spirit.

The people who experienced loss in their families it is a tragedy. Whether they committed a crime or not, it is still a tragedy.
It does irk me a little though when I see people making millions of dollars off of being "race advocates". They want to do away with race issues, but yet they make millions off of there being race issues.... Disturbing. Really what would they do for a living if there wasn't race issues? Some ( not all) are in love with the "fighting for something" mentality. Fight for Jesus to be glorified in America, that is the only hope.

"The American police officer is, at root, the antiChrist equal to the Taliban or Boko Haram, carrying out orders of his master to destroy."

Tim,

I cannot believe that you would make a statement like this. I am sure that Eric Holder and Al Sharpton would agree with you. They are just as much to blame for the racial problems in this country as any one with prejudice in their hearts.

You are calling the American police officer, at root, the antiChrist, when God calls him "His Minister".

" Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing." (Romans 13:1-6).

There are bad policemen that abuse their authority, but it is unjust to put every policeman in this category.

I have a prison ministry, and believe me, those that I minister to know that they belong there, and many are thankful that they are in prison, because God has had mercy on them and saved them from a life of destruction in which they could have very easily been killed on the streets and ended up in hell.

We should be praying for our policemen, not calling them "antiChrist".

If you want to rebel against the police for doing their job, then you are in rebellion to God.

I think we have to talk practically. Yeah it would be nice to live in a utopian theocracy but unfortunately that ship has long sailed and had not (yet) come back in.

What is the alternative to police officers?

I am open to suggestions. Maybe Gomer Pyle shouting "citizens arrest" would be more effective.

o"Are you saying ISIS, who is the law in the middle east, is to be obeyed? What makes their situation different than the blacks of today?"

Let's get real brother! You know good and well that we are not talking about Isis. The brother was talking about American policemen being AntiChrist.

We never have to obey any authority that would have us do something that would violate the will of God, and I will say this: If a policeman would stop me from witnessing when I haven't broke any law, and I knew it was God's will for me to do so, then I would probably end up in jail. For we are always obey God when the laws of the land go against the laws of God.

When you don't obey good laws that were put in place to maintain peace in a community, then you are lawless, you are out of the will of God, and your problem is not only with the police, it is with God, who has put these authorities in place to prevent lawlessness.

Quote "Are you saying ISIS, who is the law in the middle east, is to be obeyed? What makes their situation different than the blacks of today?"

I think this is a little to far... But our outward expressions show forth an inward reality of the heart. And for most who have no respect for authority its and internal issue of the heart. I think we need to be careful trying to deny that reality.

How about the police officers that are lost and going to hell as well? Are we supposed to treat them with disrespect and just hope they get saved because some of them may have done something wrong? Everyone wants to complain about all of these race issues but no one really has any suggestions on how to fix them! People get rich off of it, others fill some sort of fulfilment in fighting for something they believe in, but non of it is changing anything. Just making cops quit and no one wanting to be a cop anymore I guess. I don't really blame them either. That sounds like a great place to live, where there is a shortage of policemen...

Franklin said: Listen up--Blacks, Whites, Latinos, and everybody else. Most police shootings can be avoided. It comes down to respect for authority and obedience. If a police officer tells you to stop, you stop. If a police officer tells you to put your hands in the air, you put your hands in the air. If a police officer tells you to lay down face first with your hands behind your back, you lay down face first with your hands behind your back. It’s as simple as that. Even if you think the police officer is wrong””YOU OBEY. Parents, teach your children to respect and obey those in authority. Mr. President, this is a message our nation needs to hear, and they need to hear it from you. Some of the unnecessary shootings we have seen recently might have been avoided. The Bible says to submit to your leaders and those in authority "because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account.”

I find Graham's comments to be very practical and they hit at an issue that is huge in our nation, the issue of respect for authority. We see an absolute casting off of authority on every level, for parents, for teachers, for police, for government, and ultimately, for God. Satan has done a terrible work among us.

Franklin Graham knows as well as any Christian that the ultimate solution to our problems is to deal with them on a spiritual level. To imply that he is demanding legalistic obedience misses the point. He is simply pointing to one of the many results of our spiritual decline, lack of respect for authority. The Bible deals with many specific sins to get us to consider our condition and return to God where the true healing is found.

In Christ,