Christian Songwriting

I was wondering what people thought about the doctrinal content of many of the new Christian hymns? I recently read in a denominational publication that many of the contemporary hymns are designed more to make one "feel" God and seek experience over all things. Gone, the publication seemed to say, are the Scripture-based songs of the Reformation era. In my opinion, so much today is based on what we feel about God and not so much on what His Word says.

I'd go as far as to say that much of the modern "praise and worship" music, is actually "spiritual pornogarphy" designed to "get the bride in the mood" for "intimacy with God" (note that a "bride" isn't married yet). Now I'm sure that God would eject a "harlot", who would fall for this kind deception, from His bed. If that's the case, then who is it that is responding to their "praise and worship"?Mmmmmmm....

The words also, often lack the lustre of an encounter with God, that straightens the back and makes one's faith want to step out in His victory.The pop Christian music industry is a Babel Tower opperating from a worldly foundation - so no wonder so much of the music lacks spiritual lustre. I'll bet many are written by unbelievers. They produce what sells, and "Christians" buy what is popular. That's a sad commentary on our church culture - no different than the world. I suspect that most people prefer something that numbs rather than something that awakens (spiritually speaking). It's time we get unhitched from our dependency on the commercial market. There are some great songs being written as a deep expression of faith - that never make it to the publishers. May God guide us to that music. Actually, just this week I discovered a Christian song writer who wrote some great musicals for kids, and he's letting me have them at NO CHARGE.

We follow in His footsteps;What if our feet be torn?Where He has marked the pathwayAll hail the briar and thorn!Scarce seen, scarce heard, unreckoned,Despised, defamed, unknown,Or heard but by our singing,On, children! ever on!

If we are all part of the body of Christ, I would say this is a meeting of the noses. And the noses are saying “Hey feet, you stink.” Noses will not like the smell of a lot of other parts of the body.I am pretty fresh back in the body of Christ, so I keep seeing God everywhere – from the song of the robin that wakes me up before my alarm clock goes off, to the scriptures that I read, and even yes – modern Christian music.I think God can use whatever he wants to reach people and certainly, the new contemporary music is reaching people and crossing over from just Christian stations to secular ones. How can that be a bad thing?My son is 19 years old, he played an instrumental role in bringing my wife and I back to the Lord. In his short life he has been on 5 mission trips (2 as a leader), built 4 houses for poor people, and spent a week living downtown with the homeless.Today he is on a 3 week tour into the United States and Canada with a choir singing probably the kind of music that the nose approves of.The kid has fruit. So do many of his friends. Revival is coming when these guys get a few more years under their belt.Anyway he is a very talented musician and has played with some of the current popular Christian singers when they have come into town. They have very powerful testimonies, and the Lord is definitely with them. I believe plenty of the lyrics are inspired by God. A lot of it is pure worship music.They are the feet of the body and taking it to the streets. If you have not seen any Hillsong (from Australia) video, you should take a look. Jesus is reaching youth (millions) through these kids, and he has blessed them with great talent.We shouldn’t take away from them, just for not being noses.I like reading Philip Yancey. If I met him, I would ask him to autograph one of my books. I appreciate what he does for the kingdom of God.John 17:22,23 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you loved me.By the way, I love my nose and through it I breathe.

Dougie, I'm really glad that you inserted your thoughts in this thread. We do need to be careful how we judge music, or whatever else. I know a lady who got saved (for real!!!) watching "Jesus Christ Superstar". At that time, my pastor was repeatedly warning us all to stay away from that vile movie. (I ignored him) This unchurched lady, who had NEVER heard the gospel message, saw her sins on the cross, and the Spririt broke her. It was a genuine salvation, and when I met her years later, I couldn't deny her authentic faith. Music can enrich us - even if there are no words in it. It is a pity that some think that authentic spirituality can only be expressed in verbal language. Music is the universal language - and touches people powerfully - in some way - whether for good or bad; but as Keith Green says in his sermon, "Devotions or Devotion" it depends on the motive of the person. Maybe for most, "Jesus Christ Superstar" didn't do them any good in the long run, but for others it did the opposite - it all depends on what's going on in the heart of the person. Having said all that, I still say that there is a lot of bad music around - cheap - uncreative, lousy instrumentation, demonic, etc etc..... and there is good quality music (which not everyone can appreciate). Attaching the label, "Christian" to it makes little difference. I'm glad that you like your nose because I think we all need to have a good "nose". I've heard it said, "A real musician is someone who can tell the difference between a good sound and a bad sound" So keep on sniffing!

Music is the universal language - and touches people powerfully - in some way - whether for good or bad; but as Keith Green says in his sermon, "Devotions or Devotion" it depends on the motive of the person. Roadsign and Dougie,I find it ironic that many people who adore Kieth Green are offended by the contemporary Christian music industry that Green helped to pioneer. I can remember as a kid in a baptist youth group hearing the explanation why Kieth Green was really just offering worldy entertainment instead of God honoring music. "So You Wanna Go Back To Egypt" was contraband at our summer camp. Some of us, after the camp counselors would be asleep, would sneak off to the kitchen and listen to the tape at low volumes while whispering and eating moonpies...we were hardcore rebels!I agree with you guys...music gets wrongly blamed for all sorts of silly things. Like you say, the problem is the heart, not the art.MC

Does anyone know about Steve Camp's 'Call To Reformation for the Contemporary Christian Music Industry'? http://www.obc.org/downloads/articles/107theses.htm Mr. Camp pointed the CCM industry to the Word of God and how they have gone astray. Partnering with secular record labels, blasphemous lyrics, lack of accountability to the local church are just some of the issues. The '107 Theses' were born out of much prayer and fasting. Unfortunately, the CCM goes on disobeying God and his holy Word. Visit Steve Camp's Audience One Ministries website for more meat. http://a1m.org/ Forty dollars to hear someone sing about God being their girlfriend is stench to the nostrils of God!

I've read Steve Camp's thesis' before. Charlie Peacock, I think had a similar complaint.I'm probably missing something but I personally think that the reason Steve Camp and others don't like the industry is because it is in fact an industry and not a ministry. But it could not be otherwise unless we surrender yet another part of our culture and abandon music altogether.It is the unavoidable delimna of mass communication and retail manufacturing...Have you ever noticed how much Shania Twains albums sound like Steven Curtis Chapmans' who sound like Amy Grant who sounds like Deana Carter? It's not because the Christian artists are being "influenced by the world"...it's because they are all using the same producers, session players, and studios in Nashville. (Probably all on the same street...) There's nothing darkly spiritual afoot...it's just how music product is produced and reproduced today. Why do we expect Christian entertainers to be prophets and psalmists? Aren't they merely Christian versions of fast food or T-shirts? When was the last time we evaluated the spiritual meat of a T-Shirt that pictures a Harley in front of a cross with the words "Driven by the Spirit?" If we wanted high praise, are we going to find it in pop culture art? Really, isn't CCM just a safe Christian option for those of us who like radio friendly 2 minute jingles in the car? If Steve Camp wants us listening to music that truly expresses God glorifying praise, shouldn't he be directing us to Handel, Haydn, or Bach? Not that I wouldn't want to see more "devout" music but whose going to pay for it? I think that's the only problem I have with Camp's inspiring ideals...he's talking to an industry. It's great that Christians want to minister through music...just don't become professional! Record your songs at home with Protools on a PC. If Christians don't believe they should be making music for money then they have no ethical right to get into the industry, expecting a label to bankroll their art. They should stay a non-profit and keep their day job. Of course all of this is just my opinion which doesn't make it right. My perspective is that there are more urgent defects in the church to focus on than Switchfoot and ZOEGirl. MC

2nd Samuel And David Danced before the Lord with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet. And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD, and she despised him in her heart... (6:14-16) Then David returned to bless his household. And MIchal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD. And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in high honour. (6:20-22)Dear ladies and sirs, does David ever sing? Are we to be holier than a king?*Edit* Just to defend the legalist point of view: yes, David sung psalms. Nobody knows how, but they might have good guesses. I'm also betting that the harpest didn't stop at selah. And he did not sing of the gospel, not once. Our God does not change.

I am a former listener of Creed, POD, and the like. My favorite songs now are the old time hymns. The main reason is the doctrine that the lyrics put across. I don't fight Christians who listen to music that I don't listen to.After I was converted, I got my fingernails dirty and did research on the authors of the old hymns, and on the authors of the newer stuff I listened to.I saw Creed in concert three times, and a band I was in played some of their tunes. Today, I can still recite many of the lyrics by heart. Some things I read turned me off to them. Some of Stapp's thoughts are very poetic, somewhat Biblical, philosophic, and artistic. But what about Lyrics like, "What is the truth?" and "Next time I see his face, I'll say, 'I choose to live for always.'" I don't think he is evil incarnate or anything like that. He is talented, but he is confused, and if you're honest, you'll agree there is still some rebellion with him. So, God bless him, I'm not interested in soaking up doctrine from someone who is confused and rebellious. Fanny Crosby wrote poetry, too. But it isn't her poetry that she is now famous for, it is "Blessed Assurance." BTW, two or so years ago I would have taken the other side of this argument.I manage a Christian youth praise band, all of whom probably like Creed and bands like that. I haven't even brought this issue up, I just preach the Word. If they were to ask me, I would give my opinion. But, I don't think that Spurgeon or Wesley were used so greatly by God because they were interested in being entertained. Wesley often spoke about how he looked at all aspects of his life under a microscope. I don't hate movies, Saving Private Ryan was great, and I don't hate modern Christian music, some people may be getting saved or influenced by it, but where is the message of repentance and sanctification that echoes throughout the Bible. I think many of us would change our perspective if we got in our Bible more and did what it said, rather than seeking things that are temporary. I'm just as guilty as anyone, and that is why I say, "Let's get busy." I don't know about you, but I am ready for revival, and I don't see the messages that lead to it in much of today's entertainment, Christian or otherwise.

I believe hymns have a special place in strengthening the saints for perseverance, hope, knowledge of how God works, remembering what He has done for others and inspiring us at times of spiritual pressure. Saints who have never learned hymns cannot have them revived by the Holy Spirit in an hour of need. Music (as we all know) does something in the spirit and the soul. Dorcas,Inspite of my relaxed attitude towards music I do agree with your statement here. While I like to say that the real problem starts "in the heart, not the art"...I do feel that not all music is equal for worship and spiritual edification. Everything that is permissable is not profitable or healthy for spiritual growth. If most of CCM is "fast food" then hymns are homecooked steak and vegatables.Nothing combines theological richness, enobling melodies, and the common accord of congregational singing like that which is found in the heritage of hymns that belongs soley to the Church. MC

Just think, music as we know it today is really a very recent phenomena in the history of civilization. Before Bach's time, equal temperment (our scales, harmony, chords, etc) didn't even exist. That's less than 300 years ago!! Hymns didn't exist as we have now. What did Christians do before that? Didn't the clergy chant.. to primitive sounding modes? This thought blows me away. Our four part hymns and beautiful sacred songs are an incredible blessing to the church. Yet the squabbles over church music has never ceased. People have always been trying to keep it from getting "worldly" .... control, control.... Their zeal has often been the product of the legalistic mindset.They have been a pain to creative musicians. I'm glad that the truly gifted have not submitted to that hogwash - and just wrote music that came from deep within them - risking rejection. Often their music became timeless - not just short-lived music for the cultural tastes of their peers. Imagine if Bach etc, had listened to all the church rules: No eighth notes allowed, no violins, no harmony, no... no... no.... His music would have been so bland that it would have died long ago. (so would anything that we know as good music today)So where am I going with this? .....I'm not sure... We could go on discussing music till the cows come home, and never find the right pegs to fit it into. Like King David - it's what's in the heart that counts, and a lot of distasteful aspects just don't concern God as much as us. We can have the purest music possible, but ultimately those who participate are accountable for their own response to God. Probably the TV leads more people astray than bad music in church. .... enough rambling.... Diane

Diane,Thank you for that. I don't think you were rambling really.What I do believe is that this argument has very little factual basis, which is more along the lines of what I was attempting to say. History is wonderful. History of the English culture should not be our crutch.Creed is not a Christian band, and they never have been. They don't attest to it at all, in fact they flat out say they aren't. The reason they get labeled so is because one of their members is a Christian and writes music that the entire band must agree on before its played. Background research to me reveals that quite quickly.I have to attest to what roadsign said, and agree with it completely. About musical history, the heart, about our personal accountability.What to one person is steak looks to another to be nothing more than a raw cut of meat, or an overcooked plate. And what looks to some to be a fast food meal may be a perfectly acceptable $9 gourmet hamburger. Add your baked potatoe, soup, and dinner rolls and you have yourself that $15 steak dinner. In fact, it probably took more effort to prepare.This is an argument of personal preferences, and I hate to say it, personal views. As Christians, I think we must be very careful to not attack something in any way (degredation of quality based on personal preference notwithstanding) that belies merit. Question, maybe, but that is not what this thread is about. And many who appreciate the modern Christian music industry (which is a lot more defined by the casual listener than you might initially assume) also rather enjoy hymns. They are finding themselves farther into the main stream.Oh, and a good hamburger and french fries is every bit as nutritional as a steak dinner. Sauce is the real killer. There's usually more that goes with that steak and potato.

Well, as reference to Jesus, the saving grace of the Son of God - well, the gospel starts the new testament by most reasoning.David sung of redemption and grace, of judgement and justice. David sung of God as a whole. The point was that God does not change. We don't need to sing of the gospel to sing of God.I'm willing to be wrong, incorrect, whatever you wanna call it. Show me a psalm where David sings of the Son of God, and I will willingly admit it.

Oh, and a good hamburger and french fries is every bit as nutritional as a steak dinner. Sauce is the real killer. There's usually more that goes with that steak and potato.LOL. Is there any room in the metaphor for a thick chocolate shake? Show me a psalm where David sings of the Son of God, and I will willingly admit it.While Dietrich Bonhoeffer recieves mixed reviews with many evangelicals, I found that his small book Psalms, "The Prayer Book of the Bible", offers a perspective of the Psalms that has changed the way I read them. His basic premise is that the Psalms, are not only inspired by the Holy Spirit but that they in fact capture the prayer life of Christ himself. "...David did not pray out of the personal exuberance of his heart but out of the Christ who dwelled in him." The Psalms are the Son of Man teaching us how to pray with humanity, passion, and reverence to the Father.Well, as reference to Jesus, the saving grace of the Son of God - well, the gospel starts [with]the new testament by most reasoning.Consider Peter's testimony to the amazed crowds on the day of Pentacost.""Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;" Peter believed David did give reference to Jesus. In line with your interest to see where David sings or writes of the Son of God, here are a few verses that do indeed seem not only about Him, but from Him. When I read the poignant prophetic words of Psalm 22 I get a sense of the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world passing through the heart of David along the lonely way to His destiny at Calvary. These remarkable verses reveal that the Via Dolorosa was not a road that began in Jerusalem but a road that had existed for Christ since before the prophets were born. In the gospels we read the account of the events in Golgotha but here we read the account of Jesus' heart breaking the day He cried out "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" (My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?)"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my groaning? ...But I am a worm, and no man; A reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 'Commit thyself unto Jehovah; Let him deliver him: Let him rescue him, seeing he delighteth in him.'...Many bulls have compassed me;...They gape upon me with their mouth,ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint: My heart is like wax; It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: A company of evil-doers have inclosed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I may count all my bones; They look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, And upon my vesture do they cast lots."MC