Church Leaders are to be Holy And Separate

sermonindex Jun 4, 2015

In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. - 2 Timothy 2:20

We all have different vessels in our homes some for cooking, some for cleaning, some for storing precious materials. We all realize that some basins have less value and we even are willing to throw them out as they are spoiled for a lesser use. Paul is writing Timothy to consider how his calling as a Church leader is holy and important and requires him to seek to be a vessel for a higher purpose. We can settle in life to choose ways of sin, compromise and mediocrity in our Christian life. Timothy as a young Apostle was being encouraged to cleanse himself "godless chatter" (2 Timothy 2:16) but rather to seek to follow the Lord way in righteousness, faith, love and peace (2 Timothy 2:22). He was encouraged that if he is going to be used of the Lord as a leader in the Church he would need to separate from those who are divisive, arguing about words, and producing quarrels amongst believers. True servants in the body of Christ do not seek to argue and debate to control but rather to show love and patiently teach in kindness and love. Simply put if God has a call on your life to be a pastor or spiritual leader in his Church you cannot live as others around you. It is said that one who desires to be an Overseer desires a "noble task" (1 Timothy 3:1). The greek word used for noble here has the word picture of something very beautiful and crafted in a way that is reverenced and admired. Church leaders are to be godly men whose godliness we can follow (1 Corinthians 11:1).

Church leaders lead by example and do not force others to live godly as they do. One church leader gave these maxims as some practical guidelines to be a vessel set apart for a noble use. Thomas Hopko says, "Be always with Christ. Do acts of mercy in secret. Be polite with everyone. Spend some time in silence every day. Be faithful in little things. Be grateful in all things. Be simple, hidden, quiet and small. Say the Lord’s Prayer several times a day. Don’t complain, mumble, murmur or whine. Don’t defend or justify yourself. Be merciful with yourself and with others." To be called as a Christian leader is to be called to a godly life following the Lord. It is a life of separation from the common, mundane and defiling. The way of godliness is practical and Paul exhorts Timothy to "avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly" (2 Timothy 2:16). When we indulge our minds and tongues in criticism, fault finding, judging, complaining, slander, gossip we end up defiling our vessel becoming less useable for the Lord. Is God calling you to be a shepherd in his body? Start now to discipline yourself in areas of your life, in your tongue, mind, body, as a living sacrifice to God (Romans 12:1-2). True spiritual leaders are those who inwardly are judging themselves and constantly seeking communion with the Lord. Practically how are you separating yourself to the Lord for his work and use? Allow the Holy Spirit to burden your heart in an area that you need to discipline yourself (Romans 8:13) so a godly life can be manifest to others.

from: https://gregjgordon.wordpress.com/2015/06/04/church-leaders-are-to-be-holy-and-separate/

sermonindex Jun 5, 2015

Good article, like always but this one is a little different.

I find it a little hypocritical that you wrote words of correction to others who posted links referencing their blogs, yet you've done that here.

Wouldn't that holier calling be to live out your own rules?

Namely, with that link, you broke 'guiding principles' #3 & #6.

B

brothagary Jun 5, 2015

You need to check your heart love meek hope ,,this is yet another thing you say that does not come from the spirit ,,most of the time we are do best not to post at all to be slow to speak and slow to wrath .

Brother you seem to major in pointing the finger ,,

Brother there is no need to costanltly make known our perception of others failings, we do better to look for our own flaws

sermonindex Jun 5, 2015

If you think I'm being quick to speak, you don't understand where I'm coming from. There are many other occasions I could've but I chose this one.

In addition, Greg's blog posts ARE a blessing to me and others at SI. But just like other brothers/sisters blog posts could be a blessing.

All I am, and have been, pointing out is integrity. If you feel I'm 'finding fault' you misunderstand.

There is a fine line here. I feel that it's being crossed and has been routinely since others have been quick to be reproved. Since there is no recourse for those posters, I'll call it out here.

P.S. It's funny how others try to say I'm in the wrong when I confront others. The Holy Spirit brings light to a matter, not darkness. Sweeping things under the rug, no matter how small, isn't Christ's way. Greg can either choose restoration with the Body or he can assert his way/his site idea, which causes separation. It's simple as that. Neither of us like disunity, this is an area of that.

B

brothagary Jun 6, 2015

I feel I understand that you are calling out or rebuking Greg for a sin that you think he has comited.

That is the main reason why I felt I should defend Greg ,,

You seem too miss the reason why Greg doesn't allow others to post links to there blogs ,that being that the amount of work involved to constantly check other people's blogs that they are not propounding material that contradicts sermon index intent in its ministery,is much to hard to police sermon index does not want to indorse teachings wich it
deems false as does many other biblical ministerys , due to that issue the wisest thing to do is not allow links to others blogs, gregs blog is an extension of the ministry of sermon index so there is no double standard except in your own mind which seems to be offended at how Greg runs his ministry..

Iv seen it my self were a certaint Christian how was a very vocal member here for years had blog links on his posts regularly Who started to propound very unothadox and condemning views like a reasent poster ,

Greg knows that he will be held accountable for and false teachings or links to other sits and blogs that have false teachings available. And he must take the required steps and best efforts according to his abilitys to not promote or Incourage avenues in that direction, regardless that some of what is on those blogs ect are a blessing as you mentioned

I don't think God has set you up as the reproverof such ministerys as Greg has many other elder brother and other moderators to rebuke and reprove him . You prove that by those thread and other unesasary confrontations you have in a public show this forum .

Please think about ,and don't feel that you need to again defend your position.

I'm sure if I'm misrepresenting Greg that he will be kind enough to clarify.

God bless us all

sermonindex Jun 6, 2015

Saints,

We are posting some devotions that I am writing and I have been taking some steps to get them out via a blog and other means on social media. The end goal is compiling some short ebooks on different subjects, some especially towards helpful topics for SermonIndex, etc.

LoveMeekHope, if you are not happy submitting to authority on a Christian website and respecting in anyway those who start the website, run it, help moderate it, then it is probably good that you would move on from the website. I have featured my writings at times on the website, and done so in a way that I felt was never abusing the platform but trying to be a shepherd for God's work here as much as I can with other brethren who help serve.

We have not officially released the blog and have been enjoying some of the feedback and comments that help me understand if the devotions are encouraging brethren and if it is palatable in its format, content topics etc.

sermonindex Jun 6, 2015

You have no authority over me. Get over yourself.

You can ignore your fellow brethern or you can heed it, that's your choice. Others might tout your horn but...scripture says 'faithful are the wounds of a friend'.

You're article speaks of a holier calling. Wouldn't that entail living with the integrity of what you enforce? That's all I'm saying, is that the answer is YES.

I'm not fluffy nor is anyone truly above reproach. I was gently pointing out something to be err. If you think I was aggressive, I'd suggest you read some positive books because the issue is with your perception.

My tone is stern but full of hope that God can pull off proud scales from his eyes.

H

hulsey Jun 6, 2015

Because of the large membership of SI and the multiplicity of theologies existing on the internet it was necessary to introduce a rule forbidding the promotion of blogs by members of the SI community.

If blogs, sermon sites, etc were found to be edifying, naturally they will be promoted, and have been promoted on SI. This will continue to be so.

Greg has asked me in the past to refrain from promoting sites until he could verify their ministry. I was not offended and understood why he was doing it.

This restriction has proved to work out very well over the years. It has kept the forums on SI from becoming the Wild West so-to-speak when other forums had to be shut down and there are no plans to change this rule. Membership in the SI forums requires that you be in agreement with this rule.

SI is a ministry that God has given to Greg and it expands beyond sermonindex.net. If he makes a blog it's a part of the ministry of SI.

If you do not wish to abide by this, then perhaps you need to consider leaving.

sermonindex Jun 6, 2015

hulsey said, If blogs, sermon sites, etc were found to be edifying, naturally they will be promoted, and have been promoted on SI. This will continue to be so.

As my original post said, I'm basing my view on the guidelines. If what you said is true hulsey, I've rarely seen it. I've seen more of 'it's in the guidelines', no promotion, etc. And it's rarely due to bad doctrine.

If saints, have an opportunity to be naturally promoted, then I'd encourage some kind of guidelines for that because in practice and in truth there hasn't been a straight line on things. And to me, much of it looks very hypocritical. A lot of these things lose clarity since many users have deleted their accounts.

Thanks for adding some clarity hulsey.

sermonindex Jun 6, 2015

Greg, these are true words. Thank you for writing them so tersely.

I would change only one preposition in Thomas Hopko's advice "It is a life of separation from the common, mundane and defiling."
Our lives as believers must be a separation IN the common, mundane and defiling" because as Jesus says, we must be in the world but not of it. This is truly the overcoming of the world by Jesus. I for one, haven't got this down yet :-)

Appreciate your exhortations and keeping the site going in spite of probably weariness and futility. May God keep these precious sermons intact until everyone who needs to hear will hear.
In Christ,
Sister Leslie

G

ginnyrose Jun 7, 2015

QUOTE:
______________________________________________________________

Greg has asked me in the past to refrain from promoting sites until he could verify their ministry. I was not offended and understood why he was doing it.
______________________________________________________________

This is a good principle to follow regardless where we post what. It is so easy to post a link to a well thought out article to find some on that site/blog that raises more questions and confusion. The older I get the more aware I am becoming of this principle because the most dreadful thing I can imagine doing is giving approval to something that would end up misleading anyone.

LMH - are you aware the link Greg posted was one to an article he has written himself but was posted in a different venue?

God bless

Sandra

R

rainydaygirl Jun 7, 2015

in the Word we are all told to be Holy as He is holy. We are all called to be servants to one another and live holy lives unto the Lord.

B

brothagary Jun 7, 2015

Sis the difference is that leader must be all that .other wise he must not led ,we can have time to grow in holiness and grow from being babes in Christ who Paul said still acted carnal at time ,but leaders are to be mature and have victory over things that others may still struggle with like idol words and grumbling to name just two a leader must not expect or force babes in Christ to be mature but nurture them with the paience of Christ. And feed them slowly and tenderly

S

Sree Jun 7, 2015

It is a good word. I have done a similar study on all commands that Paul gives to Timothy in those 2 letters. One can easily list them as essential qualities for a future Church leader. Yes they are applicable to all as well, but particularly to an young upcoming leader.

Regarding sharing a link, I feel when we login into SermonIndex we all agree to submit under the authority of the moderators. It is similar to entering a neighbors house. By default you are accepting to submit to the rules of your neighbor. If he wants you to wash your feet before entering the house then better do it. We cannot question the neighbor why he is not washing his feet but expecting others to wash? If we are unwilling to ask such questions to our worldly neighbors then how much more are we to keep silent in spiritual house and matters?
For example your neighbor may ask you to remove your shoes when you enter his house, but he himself might be wearing a sandal that he wears only inside his house, hence he knows it is clean. We cannot question him on this, can we? How stupid we will be if we question our neighbor saying, "how can you ask me to remove my shoes when you are wearing a sandal in your house?"; We all know what answer to expect.

Similar to a house that belongs to a neighbor, this ministry of Sermonindex is from the burden of a brother who also wants to be faithful to the Lord. It is his burden, we may assist him in all the ways we can, but never question him on how he wants to fulfill his burden. Because on the judgment day he will be answerable for what he did with SI.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2015

Saints,

I have featured my writings at times on SermonIndex in the past and have not done so overly in the recent, but am considering to feature some of the new blog I have started. I have never seen this as a problem or especially a sin because God has caused me to shepherd this ministry under his grace.

I do believe this is a submission to authority issue that some have a problem with people being "leaders" or shepherds of this website that believers need to respect and submit to.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2015

Sree said: It is similar to entering a neighbors house. By default you are accepting to submit to the rules of your neighbor.

Two things to this. First, I'm reminded of Mark 7:1-13 and Matt. 15:1-9. Second, sure, they might own the house but who owns them? Similar to Matthew 17:24-27 and Matt. 10:28.

Also, when it comes to 'authority', I'm extremely leery when people in authority say 'you must submit', as that's the gentile's way and not Christ's nor the Kingdom of Christ. Luke 22:25-27

When it comes to Greg/SI, I'm a bit leery of some john doe creating a website of other ministers and that by proxy somehow accredits the john doe. I'm not attacking CRF nor their choice to give credentials to Greg.

What I am doing is standing up against hypocrisy. Simple as that. If I enter someone's house and they tell people to wash others feet and they don't do it themselves, I'm a bit leery of that and being in God's Kingdom, we have a right to speak up to that, which is what I *was* doing. Hulsey cleared some of this up but I also asked for added clarity in some form to communicate this to others (i.e. editing the community guidelines).

In clarity, SI.net and Greg aren't one. If you think that is true, maybe the definition is different from the actual about us page. Located here: https://www.sermonindex.net/about.php

Greg isn't Paul Washer nor David Wilkerson. SI, at least according to the website, was supposed to be: "Thus the main thrust of the speakers and articles on the website encourage us towards a reviving of these missing elements of Christianity."

If Greg wants to piggy back off of revivalists of our day, he is allowed to do what he wants with his website. But for the sake of integrity, rethink the words on 'about us' and throughout the entire site that talk about what SI is because SI doesn't look like 'ministry of Greg Gordon' because the words say 'the Body of Christ' run it. Ummm, that is a bit misleading.

The push on SI is to listen to Puritan revivalists. If the push becomes Greg Gordon's messages, well, for integrity sake, change the definition of what SI is.

sermonindex Jun 7, 2015

A few of my thoughts plus some comments i found on the net:

"Obey your leaders and submit to them,” is a difficult text to speak on because of our culture ... Our culture is anti-authoritarian and postmodern, and both ideas militate against obedience or submission.
Anglican preacher, John Stott, wrote (Between Two Worlds [Eerdmans, 1982], p. 51), "Seldom if ever in its long history has the world witnessed such a self-conscious revolt against authority.”

" obedience implies going along with direction or commands, whereas submission involves an attitude. You can obey outwardly while seething with anger on the inside, but you aren’t submitting. Submission implies a sweet spirit of cooperation that stems from trust. You trust that the leaders have your best interests at heart, and so you go along with them. "

LMH if you can have it your way then you are the authority and you expect that Greg and his team should submit to you.
I think you need to seriously pray and seek God and may be repent for having such an attitude.

Hebrews 13v16 "And do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased. 17Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. 18Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things "

Blessings

S

Sree Jun 8, 2015

"What I am doing is standing up against hypocrisy. Simple as that. If I enter someone's house and they tell people to wash others feet and they don't do it themselves, I'm a bit leery of that and being in God's Kingdom, we have a right to speak up to that, which is what I *was* doing. Hulsey cleared some of this up but I also asked for added clarity in some form to communicate this to others (i.e. editing the community guidelines)."

It is not hypocrisy. As a house owner they have all rights to decide whether their feet has to be washed or not. In other words if the house owner knows that he has not gone out at all then he will not find the need to wash his feet. He may intern ask those who enter the house to wash because he does not know where all they have gone before entering his house. If we want to enter his house we have to wash our feet whether we know it is clean or not. In real world scenario no man with right mind will question this rule.

Same way Greg may suspect the external links posted by others in SI. But he might permit certain links that he knows for sure is correct. He has all rights to do so. There is no hypocrisy here.

SI doesn't look like 'ministry of Greg Gordon' because the words say 'the Body of Christ' run it. Ummm, that is a bit misleading.

I am not here to defend SI here. I am very happy that Greg was able to defend with certain strong words in this thread. I cannot speak for how SI is termed or defined.

I can speak on submission in general and also in SI. I believe the following quote from the post of "markuskiwi" sums up LMH's idea of Body of Christ.

"Obey your leaders and submit to them,” is a difficult text to speak on because of our culture ... Our culture is anti-authoritarian and postmodern, and both ideas militate against obedience or submission.

Yes based on today's culture, people think in Body of Christ there should be democracy. Democracy though we all enjoy it today in many nations, it was not God's design at all. God never let Israel choose their King. He always appointed them. So this idea of Democracy is creeping into the understanding of Body Of Christ. In Body of Christ, all parts are equally important in God's eyes. But their roles and responsibilities are different. Clearly there are certain parts which are to submit and work with other parts.
The point is, Body Of Christ does not mean all the individual parts in that Body rule themselves. It is because we have such a wrong understanding of Body Of Christ influenced by the world around us, it is difficult to submit.

All these terms of democracy like 'fight for your rights', 'raise up your voice against authority' etc, are all demonic. If you do not like the authority of a place, then just leave that place. If it is a Church were you see the Elder or Pastor is not doing the right thing and Church is going in wrong way, then just leave the Church. Do not try to raise your voice. It is not democracy in Church.

sermonindex Jun 8, 2015

I am afraid that what is being said here is not scriptural.

Comparing SI to a neighbours house is not helpful, as the neighbour is acting in the way of the world: I have the authority here, do as I say. This is MY house and what I say goes. If you don't like it then get out.

The Bible however, says that those who lead are the ones who are to serve and are to lead by example and it is not serving if all you do is lay down a set of rules, ever increasingly restrictive rules to boot. The proof of this in action is in a dwindling membership and disgruntled members who are just shouted down.

In heavily moderated discussion forums, the membership just fades away. People feel too controlled and just leave. On the contrary I have seen forums where the moderation is very light indeed and they thrive, one of which is Christian Chat which I think is a very good example. People are willing to contribute because they feel safe and valued, and the discussions are lively and instructive.

You cannot compare a discussion forum with anything else including a church membership and it's no good trying to blame the people. If the majority vote with their feet than it would be foolish to carry on insisting that one is in the right.

If someone gets something into their mind, they will not listen to the majority voice and there will always be those who gain their worth by backing up anyone with power, and unfortunately without discrimination.

S

Sree Jun 8, 2015

I am afraid that what is being said here is not scriptural.
Comparing SI to a neighbours house is not helpful, as the neighbour is acting in the way of the world: I have the authority here, do as I say. This is MY house and what I say goes. If you don't like it then get out.

Sister no comparison or illustration can be 100% exact, including the illustration that Jesus gave. We should only look into the point about the illustration that the one who uses it is trying to express. The point here is we should not question the owner of the house. Just like the owner of the house is responsible for the well being of the members of his house, same way a forum owner is responsible for the well being of those who visit.

I agree with you that a Leader in Church should have an attitude to serve, they should be a servant of all. But they should also have the authority to call a disciple Satan, when he is trying to drive in his direction. Jesus called Peter Satan when he was trying to Stop Jesus from the cross and turning him in another direction. He was not politely requesting anything to Peter. What if Peter got offended and left? He would have lost his chance to be in God's kingdom.

It is very similar situation in any forum or Church, there will always be immature believers who will try to take the drivers seat and give direction. We need strong leaders to rebuke them like how Jesus did.

In heavily moderated discussion forums, the membership just fades away. People feel too controlled and just leave. On the contrary I have seen forums where the moderation is very light indeed and they thrive, one of which is Christian Chat which I think is a very good example. People are willing to contribute because they feel safe and valued, and the discussions are lively and instructive.

Success of a forum is not based on quantity of people in it but the quality of people in it. I would prefer being part of a Forum where only few believers participate but has very high quality posts, rather than 1000s of believers participating and posting random stuff and theologies of man.

Sadly the focus for quantity rather than quality is spreading in Church as well. The moment we start loosening our standard for the sake of quantity we are no longer pleasing God. Apostle Paul said, 'If I try to please men then I cannot be a servant of God'.