Apostolic Credentials......

sermonindex May 3, 2005

Jimm I think it was said we needed to broaden our scope. So let's do it. This ought to open a few doors. What are the qualifications of a true apostle? How many people in the New Testament were called apostles? Eph. 4:11 says that God gave apostles, evangelist, prophets, pastors and teachers to the church for the training of the saints for the work of the ministry. If the church is trained for the work of the ministry, then none of these are needed any longer. If they are not trained, then we still need them all. So let's focus on Apostles. Enjoy.

sermonindex May 4, 2005

Well, since no body wants to step up to the plate, or though it seems, I will. Let's begin in Romans, a good place to start.Rom 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, Here, we find several clues. First, the apostle is a bond servant of Christ Jesus. Secondly the apostle is set apart(Lahry's note: by God)Rom 1:5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake, Apostleship is received from Jesus Christ our Lord. One of the purposes is to bring about obedience of faith among the Gentiles, for His name's sake, not that of the apostle.Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, The apostle gives thanks unto God.Rom 1:11 For I am yearning to see you, that I may impart and share with you some spiritual gift to strengthen and establish you; Apostles impart spiritual gifts and establish the saints in truth, faith, and love.An apostle preaches the Gospel.Rom 15:1 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves They bear the weaknesses of others, and don't seek to please themselves.This should do for starters. Anyone else want to add to it? Please do, or comment as you like.

C

CJaKfOrEsT May 4, 2005

Lahry wrote:What are the qualifications of a true apostle? Apostolos is in greek means "sent ones". Number one qualification of an Apostle is that they are sent.

D

dohzman May 5, 2005

The thread on prophets and now this. Well Here goes, I fear I'm treading where angels fear to tread! As mentioned Apostle-Messenger-one who has been sent, an ambassadore(a representive of a sovereign). Proof texts Acts 23:11/Acts 26:14-18. Note the Commission came directly from Jesus Note Lukes comments on the apostles Lk1:1-2 Eyewitnesses of Jesus Christ. Apostles were taught by Jesus--- Gal 1:12,16. So at least 2 qualifications of an apostle is 1)direct revelation of Jesus 2) set apart and commissioned by Jesus 3) taught by Jesus.

C

CJaKfOrEsT May 5, 2005

dohzman wrote:So at least 2 qualifications of an apostle is 1)direct revelation of Jesus 2) set apart and commissioned by Jesus 3) taught by Jesus.Mmmmm, these are pretty hard these to test. Especially after Lahry's comment:Lahry wrote:If the church is trained for the work of the ministry, then none of these are needed any longer. If they are not trained, then we still need them all.

D

dohzman May 5, 2005

I believe there are still apostles but have never meet one personally.

C

crsschk May 5, 2005

From Ye Old WebstersApostleAPOS'TLE, n. [L. apostalus; Gr. to send away, to sent.]A person deputed to execute some important business; but appropriately, a disciple of Christ commissioned to preach the gospel. Twelve persons were selected by Christ for this purpose; and Judas, one of the number, proving an apostate, his place was supplied by Matthias. Acts 1.The title of apostle is applied to Christ himself, Heb 3. In the primitive ages of the church, other ministers were called apostles, Rom 16; as were persons sent to carry alms from one church to another, Phil 2. This title was also given to persons who first planted the Christian faith. Thus Dionysius of Corinth is called the apostle of France; and the Jesuit Missionaries are called apostles.Among the Jews, the title was given to officers who were sent into distant provinces, as visitors or commissioners, to see the laws observed.Apostle, in the Greek liturgy, is a book contained the epistles of St. Paul, printed in the order in which they are to be read in churches, through the year.

sermonindex May 5, 2005

At least two more of the NT ministerial group were called "apostles" (strongs 652) Barnabas, Acts 14:14Epapharditus, Phil 2:25One thing is obvious, that signs and wonders usually followed the ministry of the apostles. Signs and wonders were not necessarily limited to apostles.How it makes me tremble to know that in this hour there will be among us those who the appearance of signs and wonders will follow, and multitudes will follow these. They will of courses be controlled by satan.Oh the gift of discernment, oh Lord. We all need discerment. Give us that inner witness that hears Your voice in ordinary men. Glory be to God. Jesus said that His sheep know His voice. Don't listen to any other voice. If it's not Him, what value is it to you or I? That is why we should guard our vessels, our eyes, our ears, and our tongues. The blood of Jesus cleanses the cup. But He does not put a lid on it to keep out the dirt. We must do that ourselves. One could spend considerable time here in prayer, seeking the Holy Spirit to evaluate what has been heard, and desiring the freedom to listen only to those who speak the voice of the Shepard. I'm certain, there are not many in this hour.Oh how I would like to take off here on "words", their weight, their impact on the spirit of man. But I'll hold my peace as this thread is not on that subject. Shalom.

R

Rahman May 5, 2005

Brother Daryl wrote;"I believe there are still apostles but have never met one personally" ...Ha! ... Ha! ... You think daring to identify oneself as a prophet in this day and age draws "fire and ire" ... Identify yourself as an "apostle" and see what happens to you ... Ugggghhhh ... :-? Since i'm not called to be an apostle (thank God) i haven't the slightest idea what one is other than Paul (to me) would epitomize the "calling", and from doing some research it seems that no one else really knows either ... But it does seem that as one moves back in the 5 fold ministries/services spoken of in Eph. individuals in the "callings" get fewer and fewer ...You know Brother Lahry this is a very interesting thread ... An apostle must surely be one that flies in a highly rarified spiritual atmosphere as one might analogize a prophet as eagle, but an apostle as condor, as in the Holy Spirit flying him wayyyyyy up there ... i'll be looking forward to what's posted on this thread too! ...PS - Check out this website, perhaps it might help ...The Signs of the Apostolic Callinghttp://www.apostolic-movement.com/articles/signs_of_apostolic_calling.htm

sermonindex May 6, 2005

Thanks, dear brother. God bless you real good. I did check out the web page, but I....well....it did not minister to me. But I so appreciate the love that was behind posting the link. Thanks alot.

I

InTheLight May 6, 2005

What are the qualifications of a true apostle? I belive Art Katz answers this question with amazing insight in his book Apostolic Foundations. I urge you to take the time to read it carefully, you can do so online at the following link;Apostolic Foundations by Art KatzIn Christ,Ron

R

Rahman May 6, 2005

Brother Lahry you wrote,"I did check out the web page, but I....well....it did not minister to me" ...Yeah i'm not surprised, it struck me as a whole lot of unneccesary words to just say "i don't know" too, same as when i tried to find some info/sermons on the gift of "faith" ... :-( You know i've found that a lot lately in my quest to find any good definitive sermons on the gifts of the Spirit ... Funny how in the callings Christ gives to His Body there are pretty clear definitions of preacher/teacher. evangelist, a whole lot of argument about prophet, and next to nothing being clear about the apostle ... Same thing with the gifts of the Spirit, the ones folks can seem to get there heads wrapped around they explain, the ones they can't they discard :-P (hey come to thing of it thats what done with the "callings" also) ... Have you checked out brother Ron's link to Art Katz at Burning Bush? ... i'll be looking with interest as this thread delves deeper ... Hmmmm ... i guess before the credentials can even be talked about, first has to be defined even what an "apostle" is ... i look forward to learning!

sermonindex May 6, 2005

Thanks dear brother. I'm glad you understand. Prophets are not called by man ,elected by popular vote or trained by man. Neither are apostles. Yes, I know about Samuel and Elisha. But they were mentored and then anointed by God. Prophecy comes directly from God. I can't see how someone would suggest that somebody who wanted to be a prophet (desiring a good work) could attend "prophecy 101" and come out on the other side speaking from God. Anyone who would suggest such a thing in my humble opinion would be doing so purely for monetary gain and promotion of self. One other thing, there is no biblical precidence for women apostles. Shalom.

J

Jimm May 6, 2005

You know i've found that a lot lately in my quest to find any good definitive sermons on the gifts of the Spirit ... Funny how in the callings Christ gives to His Body there are pretty clear definitions of preacher/teacher. evangelist, a whole lot of argument about prophet, and next to nothing being clear about the apostle ... Same thing with the gifts of the Spirit, the ones folks can seem to get there heads wrapped around they explain, the ones they can't they discard (hey come to thing of it thats what done with the "callings" also) . Thanks dear brother. I'm glad you understand. Prophets are not called by man ,elected by popular vote or trained by man. Neither are apostles. Yes, I know about Samuel and Elisha. But they were mentored and then anointed by God. Prophecy comes directly from God. I can't see how someone would suggest that somebody who wanted to be a prophet (desiring a good work) could attend "prophecy 101" and come out on the other side speaking from God. Anyone who would suggest such a thing in my humble opinion would be doing so purely for monetary gain and promotion of self.One other thing, there is no biblical precidence for women apostles. Shalom.I am with you dear Brothers! I think I have over-extended:knockedout: myself over the past few days, so I will sit this one out, please continue to stir me as you do so well.James

R

Rahman May 6, 2005

Brother Lahry you wrote:“I can't see how someone would suggest that somebody who wanted to be a prophet (desiring a good work) could attend "prophecy 101" and come out on the other side speaking from God. Anyone who would suggest such a thing in my humble opinion would be doing so purely for monetary gain and promotion of self”. As brother Ravenhill would say do you mean like in “cemetery … uhhhh i mean seminary” … :-P I was just thinking when I got up this morning that Holy Spirit breezed thru upon 120 (i presume) ordinary folk (12 of which we know for sure) such as ourselves waiting on Him and via these unlearned multiplied the Church by 3,000 … There’s so much to be said for just laying on our faces before Him in solemn assembly and just “waiting” on Him …

sermonindex May 7, 2005

Preach it!! Amen and amen. \\o/

R

RaymondE May 8, 2005

Hi Ron,I recently met Art Katz, who, in my opinion, is both a proven apostle and prophet of God according to the "calling and election" given to Him by the Chief Apostle, our Messiah (Yeshua Ha Mashiach), The Lord Jesus Christ! Christ is all and in all! (Colossians 3:11)Art Katz has confirmed many of the "unctions" that I received, in part, in 1970 concerning the mystery of Israel and the Church (Romans 11), but, was unable to bring them to a mature understanding because of the traditional teachings of the church that I grew up in.Many in the Body of Christ fail to understand that what makes the Church the Church is "the fullness of Him (Christ) who fills all in all." (Ephesians 1:23 emphasis mine)In other words, whatever any of us profess to be in Christ, if it is authentically so, then we are acknowledging, foremost, to the principalities and the powers of the air that this is "how" Christ is working in us "in measure" and we can expect the powers of darkness will be given the "authority" to expose us as being true or false, regardless of who we profess to be as "anointed ones," or Christians!"For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13)"And the evil spirit answered and said, "Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?" (Acts 19:15).All of us need to answer the question being asked by the principalities and powers of darkness of our present generation, "Who are you?" Corporately speaking, the whole Church, as the ONE NEW MAN (Ephesians 2:15), is an APOSTLE, PROPHET, EVANGELIST, PASTOR, AND TEACHER to the Jew first, and also to the Gentiles! (Romans 1:16;2:9,10)One thing is certain about "apostles" and "prophets," in any generation, they are "foundational" to the infrastructure of the Church! (Ephesians 2:20) There can be no true restoration of the "kingdom to Israel," (Acts 1:6) nor the restoration of foundational principles to the Church," (Hebrews 6:1-12) without APOSTLES AND PROPHETS!As it is written, "If the FOUNDATIONS are destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psalm 11:3)My response is, re-lay the foundations! And the laying of foundations require the specific grace abilities of wise master builders called apostles and prophets! As it is written,"According to the GRACE OF GOD which was GIVEN TO ME as a WISE MASTER BUILDER I have LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another builds on it. For no other FOUNDATION can anyone lay than that which is laid,which is JESUS CHRIST." (I Corinthians 3:10,11).The issue of apostles today is the issue of the present day Apostlolic ministry of Jesus Christ, Himself! There is only one Body of Christ whose "Book of ACTions" is still being lived out through the Apostolic, Prophetic, Evangelistic, Pastoral, and Instructional HEADSHIP of Jesus Christ through earthen vessels!

sermonindex May 8, 2005

Thanks for your post and you bring out some excellent points. Satan's ploy from the beginning is to smoke screen truth so that truth is not easily discerned. Thus the initiation of this thread and the one like it on prophets. Prophets, Apostles, and Evangelists are called by God. So are teachers and pastors. I know several evagelists. It's easy to identify the real evangelist, because their fruit is obvious and remains. Souls are being saved. Lives are being changed, and God is getting all the glory, honor, and praise. I'm not at all familiar with Art Katz, much to my loss I'm sure. Anointing is everything in church leadership. Unfortunately, a person can be placed into leadership by popular vote. I mean, when Matthias was elected, at least they drew lots AFTER they had recognized two men of God who were already anointed by God.So back to the enemy, he brings forth all of these prophets and apostles by name, whose personal charisma and talent make it appear they are anointed. That's why we really have to know the Word, because whomever speaks for God will never speak outside the structure and law of scripture. That does not mean that God is without imagination. It just means that all of God's moving among us will not break forth outside of God's true nature. We must recognize the true Shepards voice, even among pastors, since they do 99.9% of the preaching these days. That too is terribly unfortunate and unfair to these noble men of God. They carry absurd burdens of business and have little time to spend with God. Organizations must have "official" positions. Positioning is not being like Christ. Quite the opposite. Jesus is the Head of the Church and is quite able to lead and guide it. Don't we need leaders? Of course we do, but they should be recognized by their anointing, not by their doctorate in theology. Finally, it is quite clear that signs and wonders followed the preaching of the word by the apostles. This too has been smoke screened by satan. We really need to pray for discernment here. So apostles must be special messengers with a message from God, not just a title, called by Jesus Christ Himself, anointed for their service, with signs and wonders following. We must also be careful with emotionalism. (Yea I know I said finally, but wait, there's more)When Jesus touches someone, they become emotional. But emotion does not necessarily mean that Jesus has manifest His glory in somebody. In times past when revivals have broken out and the saints became emotional. However, it eroded into an unwritten legalistic declaration that if there was no emotional display in a meeting, then the pastor was not anointed and God did not manifest Himself. This is not true and very unfortunate. Certainly those of us who were not saved yesterday have withnessed this in grand fashion observing and even being caught up in the "charasmatic renewal". Flesh will always want to organize and legalize. Jesus said, follow me. So we must all follow Him, be we apostles, prophets, evangelists, teachers, pastors, greeters, custodians, missionaries, gardeners, servers, or whatever the Body needs. To not follow Jesus is to miss Him completely. The line starts at the cross. See you there.

C

CJaKfOrEsT May 8, 2005

InTheLight wrote:I belive Art Katz answers this question with amazing insight in his book Apostolic Foundations. I urge you to take the time to read it carefully, you can do so online at the following link;Apostolic Foundations by Art KatzAmen...This book is amazing. My life has never been the same since reading:-). For those who want a taste, before reading, try What is Apostolic?, by Katz (May require a few hearings to fully appreciate, though).