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"Being" vs. "doing" -- ideas/thoughts?

D
dolfan Aug 17, 2015

"Be doers of the Word, and not hearers only...".

The bible tells us clearly to be doers.

I hear frequently from Christians who really think they are saying something profound that we should quit "doing" and start "being". And, then I go back in my mind to a scene with Chevy Chase in Caddyshack, where he is giving the caddy a quick driving swing tip and tells the caddy "be the ball." "Just be the ball."

It's funny because it is absurd. And, the whole goal of "being the ball" was to get the ball to **do** something, right? Get in the hole!

I get why some Christians default to this line of "being not doing", though. Many come from a background of legalism and performance-based churchianity. Some of those pitiable brothers and sisters endured a long time of shaming and loveless going through the motions of church. "Be not do" is a breath of cool air to them.

But, the wind machine of "be not do" is not content to just refresh and reorient a generation of people worn out on the meaningless routines of "do, do, do". There is a strong voice inside this school of thought that says, "just stop all doing and just be." Danger, danger, danger! (I feel like the robot on Lost in Space -- "Danger Will Robinson!")

How do you practically take a brother or sister by the hand who comes from a legalist/performance background and walk them from the "doing" that is promoted as securing one's place in heaven to the "doing" that is an outgrowth of a regenerated heart and Spirit-filled inner man? How do you overcome their objections to all "doing" as equal to legalism? How do you move them into a doing that IS being -- being a doer of the Word?

Any experiences here?

T
TMK Aug 17, 2015

True faith = doing

That is the paradox of the Christian faith.

sermonindex Aug 17, 2015

Reading some theological systems, you can observe that they teach justification is by faith and sanctification is by works. But Sanctification is by faith, also. Our whole life in Christ is by faith. Our abiding in Christ is by faith. All of our works (His works in and through us) are by faith.

It is God who is working in us as we come into agreement with His will. The fruit we bear is not of ourselves.

Php 2:13 For it is God which WORKETH IN YOU both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, WORKING IN YOU that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

If the character and behavior of Jesus Christ is not working in and through us then we should examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith.

sermonindex Aug 17, 2015

Look - Behold and be transformed

There is nothing that has the ability to transform our lives as much as how we hear and what we behold. What we hear determines what we see and we become what we behold. Beholding truth makes us true.

"That which was from the beginning, that which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes; that which we have gazed upon, and our hands handled, concerning the word of life" (1 John 1:1

Can you see how the tangible experience of God's presence starts with what we hear. There is a natural progression from hearing to seeing to gazing to touching.

What we hear

The Word John speaks about is not the latest fashionable 'revelation', but rather that which was from the beginning. In Christ, God's original thought was preserved since the beginning. The destiny of this Word was always to become flesh. This Word cannot be contained in books … not even sacred books. Paul said it this way: We, of course, have plenty of wisdom to pass on to you once you get your feet on firm spiritual ground, but it's not popular wisdom, the fashionable wisdom of high-priced experts that will be out-of-date in a year or so. God's wisdom is something mysterious that goes deep into the interior of his purposes. You don't find it lying around on the surface. It's not the latest message, but more like the oldest””what God determined as the way to bring out his best in us, long before we ever arrived on the scene. 1 Cor 2:6-9

Would you agree that the Word that was in the beginning, that was with God and that was God, was not a book but a person? The truths contained within the scriptures point towards The Truth, which is a person, not a book! In Jesus' days there were many who highly revered the scriptures, yet completely missed its message. Jesus said to the religious scholars of His day: "You have your heads in your Bibles constantly because you think you'll find eternal life there. But you miss the forest for the trees. These Scriptures are all about me! And here I am, standing right before you, and you aren't willing to receive from me the life you say you want. John 5:39

How often still do we hear messages, backed by many scriptural references, filled with formulas and principles yet oblivious to the person - Christ in you. He still desires to find expression, not only in a doctrine or a teaching, however eloquent they may be, but in a person - in you.

This Word is original not invented last week. This Word is eternal, not seasonal. Even before time as we know it, God made up His mind about us. "He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4 Before we did anything to impress or disappoint Him, He knew us, chose us and uniquely identified us in Christ. Christ came to show us what God originally saw in us, that cause Him to take such interest in us.

How we hear

Jesus said: Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away. (Luke 8:18) There is a way of hearing that will enrich you greatly and there is a way of hearing that will rob you.

Prior to this statement Jesus told the parable of the sower to illustrate some of the different ways of hearing. He likens the Word of God to seed … seed that is received (heard) in different ways and consequently produces different levels of fruitfulness. I want to liken the progression of hearing, seeing, gazing and touching that I mentioned above to this parable of the sower.

As the sower goes out to sow, some seed falls along the way on a path - it produces no fruit. For me this speaks of casual, careless 'hearing'. The path is not ready for nor receptive to the seed. I would say that this is a person that never really heard the message.

Then there is the seed that falls among the rocks. There is a bit of good soil there and so the seed does sprout, but because there is no depth it withers quickly. Often, in the excitement of hearing this gospel, the first response is: what shall I do; how do I apply it? People want to move directly from first hearing this good news to trying to change everything around them. However, it is vital to hear in such a way that what you hear starts changing what you see. Otherwise the excitement might be short lived because as soon as you 'see' a contradiction the whole experience withers. This person is at the hearing stage, but has not heard enough to start seeing.

In each of these illustrations there is a progression in the intensity of 'hearing' and a consequent progression in the fruit it produces. The next example is a person who hears and having some depth, they allow the word to sink in, to change the way they see. Because of this, the seed sprouts and begins to bear fruit. Yet they allow other seed, other words to have an equal place in their lives. This Word is not yet the ultimate word in their lives, it has not captured their exclusive attention yet. Consequently, the seed is not as fruitful as it could be.

"As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience." This is the person who hears and embraces what they hear. This is a way of hearing that captures the persons heart. Embrace this word until you find yourself inescapably embraced by it. The soil does not have to make the seed grow - the seed spouts and grows of its own accord. The soil simply needs to provide an environment for the seed to remain. Jesus once said: "If you abide in me and my words abide in you, you will bear much fruit". 'Abide' does not take much effort. It speaks more of rest that activity.

What we have seen and gazed upon As we heed this word, as we give our ears, our attention, we'll begin to see. "which we have seen with our eyes; that which we have gazed upon". John uses two variations of the word 'see'. The first is 'horao'.

Strongs define it as: Properly to stare at, that is, by implication to discern clearly; by extension to attend to.

The second word is 'theaomai' and it is a more intensive form of the first word, meaning: A prolonged form of a primary verb; to look closely at, that is, by implication to perceive.

Again the progression is evident. Look until you see beyond the obvious. Look beyond the surface and allow the true meaning of this word to captivate your attention. Continue to gaze ans soon you'll find this word becoming a tangible reality.

There is no method, technique or process that has a greater ability to transform our lives than simply gazing into this mystery, seeing in it the face of our birth, allowing our attention to be captivated by it. Let me be clear. when I speak of being transformed, I do not mean becoming something that you are not. This transformation is a restoration to the original.

And all of us, as with unveiled face, continued to behold as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transformed into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another (2 Cor 3:18

But friends, that's exactly who we are: children of God. And that's only the beginning. Who knows how we'll end up! What we know is that when Christ is openly revealed, we'll see him””and in seeing him, become like him. (1 John 3:2-3

Can you see in these how 'transformation' is linked to 'beholding'? Once we start seeing the truth of God's opinion of us and excitement fills our hearts, the first response should simply be one of adoration - lets see more; let's look more deeply, let us gaze upon Him. Such adoration will awaken the appropriate response.

Be a doer of the word, not just hearer.

"But be doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. Because if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his own face in a mirror; for he looks at himself, goes away, and right away forgets what kind of man he was. But the one who looks intently into the perfect law of freedom and perseveres in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer who acts””this person will be blessed in what he does."

Now when this scripture is taught were are given principles to follow, and told to make some type of personal application, told to take certain steps to achieve success, told to use some magic and secret keys to unlock true victory, told to try harder and told to put forth more effort to obey.

Now all these responses are WRONG and if you do any of these things you will only find failure and defeat.

Why? Because you are attempting to do the impossible. God in Christ has totally destroyed the person you were in Adam on the Cross. When Christ rose from the dead you were completely recreated into the very image and likeness of God Himself. Now this is what God has already done without your approval or choice. The truth is the truth and you can not change this fact even if you wanted to.

You were recreated by Him - now look and when you look into God's very likeness and image you will see Him and yourself. This is the way God created you. He is VERY pleased with you - how could He not be? You are totally loved, treasured, valued, holy, righteous and perfect without any spot or wrinkle. God in Christ has justified you before you were born on this earth.

He has placed you into union with Him and He made you one with Him. Now just look and behold your image in Him - The REAL YOU!!

Why have you missed this? You are blind to this existing fact and need your eyes to be opened to see the GLORY and truth about you and God.

If you are sick and tired of all your efforts and struggles just ask God to open your eyes to see and He will!

As you see His love for you, His care for you and see Him hugging and kissing you - all you need to do is hug and kiss Him back. Now that is a true doer of the Living Word.

NOW THIS IS TRUE REST!

No more steps to follow, or personal applications to make.

We can just enjoy His love and love Him Back!

NO more confessing Scriptures over and over again like some magic potion,

HE IS VERY PLEASED IN HIS RECREATION OF YOU - how could HE not be?

You are HIS creation and that is not of yourself.

YOU ARE NOW IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS!!

LOOK AND BEHOLD!!!

The word 'doer' is so much richer than many translations bring across. It's the same word from which we get 'poet'. 'poietes' a performer; specifically a "poet": - doer, poet.

It speaks of inspired, passionate expression. When this word is declared as it should be, you'll hear much more than 'do's and don'ts', you'll see the face your origin as in a mirror. The secret to accurate 'doing' of this word is in accurate 'seeing'. It is the one who looks intently and continues to look, that finds inspired expression - expression birthed from what He sees.

With that in mind I enjoyed the following translation:

Look and continue to look,
the perfect, complete, and eternal freedom.
Listen; listen intensely;
listen in such a way that it bursts forth in inspired expression.
Allow what you hear to awaken the poet in you;
allow what you see to awaken the artist in you.
Then act; act in the full conviction of what you have seen and heard,
and you will will find delight and affirmation in your action.
James 1:25

Then you can respond with something like this "I AM ONE WITH HIM - HALLELUJAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW THIS JOYOUS RESPONSE IS ONLY A RESULT OF WHAT HE HAS SHOWN AND IS SHOWING YOU.

This confession does not make anything happen.

I am just filled with joyous AWE, wonder as I see all this - and there is so much more to be seen.

LOOK AND BEHOLD!

IT DOES NOT EVEN DEPEND ON OUR BELIEF!!

IT DEPENDS ON HIS FAITH TOWARD US AND IN US!!

HE OPENS OUR EYES AND THEN WE SEE THEN WE JOYFULLY RESPOND.

The belief and faith was NEVER DEMANDED - iT is SUPPLIED TO US when our eyes are opened BY HIM!!!

Y
yuehan Aug 17, 2015

Hi dolfan,

Consider John 6:28-29: "Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”"

In the past, I thought it was a cryptic answer, even an evasive one. But if we understand that the Christian life is not about "doing" in itself, but having faith in Christ and allowing Him to live through us... it is Him who transforms our "doing". Our actions are the fruit of our abiding in Him.

BTW in popular thought, Jesus is said to be holy because He did good works. But the real reason that He led a sinless life on earth was because He trusted His Father every moment, and lived in total dependence on Him.

Trusting in God's character, and believing what He says about us - that we are forgiven, perfectly loved, freed from sin and are now new creations... these things don't come naturally to us. The lack of trust in God is really the root of all problems we see in Christian community.

But God is patient, and the more we trust Him, the more we experience the reality of God's truth in our lives and able to better minister to others.

Believing, abiding, having faith, even obeying (Romans 6:17) - all these are synonyms for trust :)

D
dolfan Aug 17, 2015

Let's put concrete in this.

A church canvasses neighborhoods and the members do it okay, but many privately do not believe it "works". Yet, ask them and each will say that it is a necessary work. They would not dream of not canvassing because that is what you do.

A believer and another believer sit down to coffee. One says, "I want to learn to explain the gospel to unbelievers more clearly and succinctly." The other says, "Man, just be an example that will make Him see Jesus in you and make him want what you have."

Comment on those scenarios.

L
Lysa Aug 17, 2015

I love that robot on Lost in Space, God has used him many in my life to thwart the enemies plans!! Thank you Jesus!

James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Some will argue but mind you that I do not believe that *** 'works' is a set of 'rules' that we have to live by in order to show ourselves to be 'faithful.'

Here's a few of the works I believe that James was talking about. :) :) :) The work of "PUTTING ON"...

Esther 5:1 Esther PUT ON her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the king’s palace

Isaiah 51:9 Awake, awake, PUT ON strength, O arm of the Lord!

Matthew 6:25 ...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will PUT ON. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing?

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us PUT ON the armor of light.

Romans 13:14 ...PUT ON the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Ephesians 4:24 ... PUT ON the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Ephesians 6:11 PUT ON the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Colossians 3:12-13 ... as the elect of God, holy and beloved, PUT ON tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering...

Colossians 3:14 But above all these things PUT ON love, which is the bond of perfection.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us who are of the day be sober, PUTTING ON the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

God bless, and honestly, I don't think that 'works' is work!! ;)

Lisa

PS: perhaps more of us can have a yahoo or gmail email address for sermonindex, Tim and others!!

T
Theophila Aug 18, 2015

Hi brother dolfan,
Scenario #2:
a] I kinda like Ray Comfort's approach. Show a person the law, and frequently, they admit they are on the wrong side of it. Then explain the consequences and the Remedy.

Scenario #1:
Canvassing a neighborhood [when it does work] only adds dead bones to more usually dead bones.


T
TMK Aug 18, 2015

Tim- in your scenarios

1) doing what we think is right when we don't want to is part of taking up a cross. Eric Liddell (from chariots of Fire) did not mop out overflowing latrines when he was a prisoner in China because he wanted to. He did it because God wanted him to.

2). Thank goodness no one gave Finney or Wesley or Taylor that advice; or if they did that they did not listen.

No, even if we are filled with the HS we will not somehow just naturally do what we are supposed to do like it just pours out of us. We still must consciously choose to act. We act because we trust Jesus. If we say we trust him but do nothing then we don't really trust.

I
InTheLight Aug 18, 2015

How do you practically take a brother or sister by the hand who comes from a legalist/performance background and walk them from the "doing" that is promoted as securing one's place in heaven to the "doing" that is an outgrowth of a regenerated heart and Spirit-filled inner man? How do you overcome their objections to all "doing" as equal to legalism? How do you move them into a doing that IS being -- being a doer of the Word?

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (II Corinthians 5:14)

Love is the practical constraining virtue; our love to Jesus Christ, His love to us as demonstrated on the cross. If folks will rightly consider that they were dead and had no hope of life without Christ's death, then they will know this constraint of love that calls them to duty.

In Christ,

J
JFW Aug 18, 2015

Brother Todd,
I'm tracking with you on that!

For me it's not a "vs"- either/or scenario... Does not the word say "be ye holy"? Which is a state of being that a few others have touched on already tho' to "be holy" is to do that which is holy... Not possible to have it any other way. While this is not a "working to be" it is a work in and of itself produced by holiness. "Work out what has been worked into you" is another place where we are charged to act, and not only act but to have the issue settled in our hearts once and for all. Allot of the "work" seems to firstly be an internal/inner man undertaking of which the out working "fruit" is what the Apostle James seems to be referencing. Meaning if we keep ourselves/vessels pure (inner work), and we abide (inner work) and devote ourselves to prayer (inner work) and so on... Then the fruit will come in all its various flavors (out working) which is I believe what James is contrasting here to show the same thing that in another place is stated "having the form of godliness but denying the power" which is to say James was charging them to not deny the power of the gospel thru a passive/apathetic mere mental/theological approach. A commentary on this scripture would be; Therefore said he unto them, "The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest."
I get the "danger danger" when I hear the grand and lofty ideologies put forth but don't see any dirt on the knees.... because our Lord says "the least shall be the greatest" and "he who makes himself last will be made first" and the aforementioned group seems to be a primary concern/target in James' epistle as he keeps going back to them throughout his writings.
Personally I find James to be the most simple, most profound, and most challenging of all the NT books and so it wasn't surprising when I discovered it was also one of the most controversial and contested. I think maybe this word "work" had a lil to do with that;)

sermonindex Aug 18, 2015

I always find it interesting that when people think of works they think of outward activities like witnessing rather than the inward activity of sowing to the Spirit or walking in love. I went witnessing a few times in my younger years with a brother who had a real bad anger problem. He could witness pretty good, though.

What good are outward works if we are not embracing the work of the cross our sowing to the Spirit?

Reminds me of Matthew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

D
davidkeel Aug 18, 2015

dolfan (Tim) said :
How do you practically take a brother or sister by the hand who comes from a legalist/performance background


Hi Tim, I think on a practical level you have to get inside the persons mind through counselling or friendship and discover what kind of striving they are doing in their performing. Find out what they themselves believe is necessary for a close relationship with the Lord.
As many times someone like this has over a period of years developed a performance related lifestyle. That is so ingrained in their mind that it is operating on a sub conscious level.
They need to be taught grace and faith again as if they are new born.
Then when they begin to experience moving in faith and grace freely and receiving of the Lord they will hear God speak to them about surrendering areas of themselves to Him.

I think thats what you mean Tim but you might be talking about people who seem to not want to perform at all by claiming all 'doing' is of works. In that case I ain't got a clue, lol They are harming themsleves really if thats the case.

D
davidkeel Aug 18, 2015

Sorry, I'm not sure how the quotation thing works

D
dolfan Aug 18, 2015

Davidkeel you are well on track.

A good friend of mine is wrestling with this. I want to be a help.

For months, he continues to repeat several themes as if he has had an epiphany of sorts. And, what he has "seen" is not the biblical response to the problems he rightly recognizes. His "new light" is a mix of biblical language and self-help and just old nature self.

The examples I supplied are close analogues to stories he repeats as examples of his struggle.

At bottom it is a simple heart matter: Am I sold out to God and reserve nothing for myself? Do I seek Him with my whole self on the altar? Am I doing what is needful for God to show Himself to me and me see and hear Him? Do I really love Him so that I claim nothing of my own and all I am is His, or am I just "dating" Him?

Yet, this is not proving to be a simple process to bring him to understanding. I suppose it is because we can't bring him to that point ourselves. But, as a brother and someone with whom I fellowship, I have a duty to bear this burden in his weakness of belief and thought. That has to be more than nice sounding words.

My supposition is that he spends a lot of his time planning on pleasures (vacations, next purchases, etc.) when he is not directly engaged in his work. He is admittedly not a student of the Bible. He reads, but I think from a sense of obligation and "if I do the right things I will go to heaven and God will bless my life here with more stuff, a vacation home, etc.".

Leading someone from A to B who does not seem to want to be lead to B is a challenge, but you must know that this is just where many people are in this faith.

J
JFW Aug 18, 2015

Brother Tim,
That's why I wrote what I did....
I was raised CoC and had discovered that legalism comes when we try to skip A (inner works) and try to go to B (out working) in order to "show ourselves approved" etc.... But the problem is there is no rebirth and therefore this person is working out of their own strength which I have found leads to a critical spirit that is oft associated with legalist. It doesn't sound like your friend has a new heart...still seems too captivated by the world and not so concerned with advancing the Kingdom/cause of Christ.
So I would say your friend needs to truly be born again and the baptized with the Holy Spirit and then the Lord will have fixed the problem. So my suggestion is to pray, intercede for this brother before the Lord.

sermonindex Aug 18, 2015

Exactly, JEW!

That is what I was alluding to in my post.

You can't put new wine into old wine skins. If someone has a religious spirit or are not even interested in the inner workings of the Holy Spirit it is very possible they are not born again. "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

D
dolfan Aug 18, 2015

I am praying that he gets baptized in the Spirit. I accept his testimony of salvation. He had a genuine experience with God years ago. And, he is very performance driven in his own life. Thanks for your thoughts guys -- and ladies -- as your heart is on display for Jesus.

I stayed home extra this morning to pray specifically for him and for my daughter. I really believe God will, in His timimg, do a work in this brother.

L
Lysa Aug 19, 2015

dolfan wrote:
How do you practically take a brother or sister by the hand who comes from a legalist/performance background and walk them from the "doing" that is promoted as securing one's place in heaven to the "doing" that is an outgrowth of a regenerated heart and Spirit-filled inner man? How do you overcome their objections to all "doing" as equal to legalism? How do you move them into a doing that IS being -- being a doer of the Word?

I’ve thought more on this last part of what you asked brother. We cannot take anyone from where they ‘want’ to be but we can bump them a little to get them moving.

I sat in an education class while the professor explained antithesis vs thesis. It was awesome, he was explaining how the effects of antithesis can change children’s lives in the classroom and yet, I was hearing how the effects of antithesis can change men’s lives for Christ!! Antithesis coming in contact with thesis changes minds!!

If I fail to convey what I heard that day in class, forgive me a head of time... He explained how we all have a ‘thesis’ but when someone comes along in our life with an antithesis, it jars us, bumps into us and makes us think. Some people will bump (antithesis) into us (thesis) with a new idea and we might call him/her idea crazy until we bump into to someone else with that same idea! Paul called it... ‘some plant, some water but it’s God who gives the increase.” This takes a while, it doesn’t happen over night and it depends on how much ingrained in the ‘legalism’ of religion they are. You may have to jar him a few times, use logic (bump into his thesis, so to speak!).

I have one friend whose husband has ALWAYS argued with me over the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Southern Baptist) and would try to draw me into an argument with him. But praise God, I just smiled and used the logic of the Scriptures on him and bumped into him on several occasions!! LOL Now, ten years later, the man apologized to me (2x) for giving me such a hard time that he now believe speaking in tongues is for today and for the church!! I did the bumping (planting), someone else did the watering but it’s God who gives the increase!!

Your friend can change with prayer and some bumping on your part and a lot of patience and love!!

God bless brother,
Lisa

sermonindex Aug 19, 2015

Amen, Lysa. "Bump" by being an example of love (Christ).

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