Sad but True

Jesus reply to the Disciples when they asked Him of the clear evident sign the Believers will see of His Coming was this.
Many will come and deceive many, many false anointed will come in the name of Christ and declaring that Jesus is the Messiah yet they are deceivers and will deceive many.

With all of the hype this year and many bold statements made by Shepherds in Authority that the Rapture is coming in 2015 and the Tribulation is about to Come and we will all be raptured out of here.

How many believers are really discerning what is being said and actually recording these bold statements, how many will see these shepherds as false teachers once their bold prophecies are proven to be a lie, how many will continue to buy their books and watch their videos.

How many will actually believe the words of Jesus Himself.

Jesus told us exactly when He will Come, Jesus told us the order of events that will be clearly seen before He Comes, but of that Day and Hour of His Coming after the Signs are seen in the Sun and Moon and Stars which Jesus said would be seen after the Tribulation period has ended

No man knows, But Jesus commanded us to learn the parable so that we will know when to look up, so that we will know when He is at the Door, we will know when our Redemption draws near, Jesus told us when He will Come we just don't know the 24 hour period.

Who will you Trust in today, the Words of Jesus Himself or the false teaching of men.

Jesus and Paul clearly stated to stay clear of the Doctrines of man.

Discern what is Truth and what is a Lie Brothers and Sisters in Christ.

When did Jesus say that He was Coming?

Quote: """Jesus told us exactly when He will Come, Jesus told us the order of events that will be clearly seen before He Comes, but of that Day and Hour of His Coming after the Signs are seen in the Sun and Moon and Stars which Jesus said would be seen after the Tribulation period has ended."""

Where?

In Christ: Phillip

The question of Jesus' second return has fired the imagination of many throughout time. Some have made a reasonable argument based upon Scripture detailing what the endtimes will look like thus marking Jesus' return.

A few years ago Edgar Whisenant wrote a book and made a video on 88 reasons why Jesus will return in 1988. I saw the video and I promise - he was very convincing. As we all know 1988 came and went with no sign of Jesus return.

We all get weary of sin run unchecked, so-called Believers embracing perversion and promoting it and if you do not agree you are marginalized/hated. Because this is the case we cry in our spirits, "how long, O Lord?" Then we look around at our loved ones who are outside the fold and we say, "Wait a little bit longer, please Jesus...there are so many still wandering out in sin..." Yet, the reality is that people are not wandering they are walking away from God. Sad. And we grieve. Surely, this must be the endtimes....All signs of the endtimes, for sure.

Personally, I think one needs to keep in mind that things will be horrible and worst right up to the coming of Jesus' return...there are those who believe that some kind of utopia can be achieved through diplomacy that will usher in Jesus' return.

My understanding.

Sandra

I have just finished watching a brilliant teaching DVD that was recommended by another believer.

The DVD is titled Left Behind or Led Astray

It is a brilliant teaching aid and I believe every Church and Believer should watch this very Truthful, Factual and revealing DVD and be aware of how Doctrines can be created so far from Gods Word.

Watch this DVD and then choose what to believe regarding the Coming of Christ.

It is so important to stand upon the Doctrine of Scripture not on mens dividing teaching.

So much Deception out there today.

When the Disciples asked Jesus about his coming in Matthew 24 Jesus first reply was Many will come and deceive many

How true, many are out there speaking deception regarding the Coming of Christ.

Look at how many have prophesied false lies that the Rapture is taking place this month of Sept 2015, not one verse to support themselves.

How many will be led astray by these lies?

Many do not study to see if what they are being taught is true and aligns with the Word of God.

a link is below

http://www.goodfight.org/

I do hope you purchase and are challenged

Budgie-

Philip asked you a simple question about where Jesus explains exactly when he is returning.

Will you please answer this question.

Don't refer us to other things we have to buy- just tell us plainly. No mystery, no beating around the bush.

Please.

Thanks TMK for your lovely response in such brotherly love.

Yes I will respond to Philips question with the words of Christ.
In Matthew 24 Jesus own Disciples asked Jesus for the Sign of His Coming and Jesus responded to their question with such Truth in Matthew 24 and 25.

Jesus said this.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Disciples asked for the sign and Jesus gave them the sign.

Jesus said when He is Coming and He himself said it will be after the signs are seen in the sky after the Tribulation has ended.

Jesus even goes on to say that of that day of His coming which He has already told us will be after the Tribulation know man knows the day (24 hour Period) or Hour (60 minute Period).

We know that His Coming is after the Tribulation has ended but we do not know the day or hour.

Jesus then tells us to learn a Parable of the Figtree.

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So ((likewise)) ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Jesus said that when we see ALL THESE THINGS then we know that His Coming is Near, even at the Doors.

We have as a Generation not seen ALL these things as He has described yet, not at all.

Jesus even told the Disciples when the Great Tribulation begins. It is when the Abomination takes place in the middle of the week.

Jesus even told us of all the events that will be seen before the Tribulation ends from verses 6 to 28

In verse 25 Jesus even says Behold I have told you so beforehand.

Jesus takes the time to tell us what will happen before the day of His coming

Jesus has prophesied it and it will take place exactly as He Prophesied.

There is not one verse where Jesus Prophesies that He is Coming before or even in the middle of that Great Tribulation, no not one.

Jesus told us exactly when He will Come and it is somewhere in the days after the Tribulation has ended.

In Mark we know that Jesus says that there exists a short period of time from when the Tribulation has ended until the signs are seen in the sky.
Jesus says (those days after that Tribulation)

After means after, days mean days.

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Many ignore what Jesus has to say in regards to when He is Coming as if they know better and even say that Jesus can come at any moment.

Jesus told us clearly when He is Coming but of that Literal Day or that Literal Hour that He comes after the Tribulation no man knows.

BUT Jesus said that when we see all those things then He is at the door and then is the Time our Redemption draws near.

Again we have not seen all these things yet.

Paul taught the exact same Truth as Jesus.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Oh I wish many today would not listen to another spirit or another word or another letter.

Many theories with not one scriptural support.

Look at what Paul has to say in regards to deception

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Sadly many ignore the deception that Paul warned us about regarding the Coming of Christ.

Paul said that the Day of Christs Coming and our being gathered to Him will not take place until the Apostasy and the Son of Perdition is revealed, Paul even states that Jesus will destroy this Son of Perdition when He comes to gather us to himself.

Paul told us when Jesus is Coming but again does not tell us the Literal 24 hour day or 60 minute time.

Jesus and Paul tells us exactly when Jesus is coming.
God Himself even tells us when Jesus is Coming in Revelation 20 and even tells us when the First Resurrection takes place and all believers know that the Resurrection precedes the Rapture as Paul so clearly describes in 1 Thess 4: 16-18

I hope this helps Philip

All I have given is pure scripture.

To TMK
When I was suggesting for many to purchase the DVD Left Behind or Led Astray it was not just for the sake of buying or beating about the bush, but for the very reason that it is a very Truthful, Factual and informative teaching aid to enable many who have never studied or can study the truth in regards to a doctrine that was made by man with not one scriptural verse to support it.
Every Believer deserves to see the Truth so that they can make a decision for themselves.
As Paul said do not be troubled by a spirit or letter or word that does not align with scripture.
From the bottom of my heart my intentions are not for the gains of myself but that others may know the Truth and be set free from such error and stand on what the word of God clearly states.
Many today do not agree with and do not align themselves with the authority of God Word, instead twisting it to support their own doctrine.

\tMat 24:44 This is when He will come back

Matthew 24:44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

That is exactly the problem. On one hand Jesus SEEMS to say when He will return. But he ALSO says he will come at an hour you do not expect.

If he was talking about his second coming in the Olivet Discourse, we would be able to "see the signs" and know the hour he is coming back. But he also says when he comes it will be unexpected.

Which is why I don't think he was talking about his 2nd coming in the Olivet Discourse but rather his coming on the clouds in judgment when Jeruslem, the temple and the Jewish system was destroyed.

Budgie,

Thank you for the link to the film. I was not aware of it and it looks interesting. I will see if I can get a copy in the uk. The list of teachers involved in this film looks very good and credible.

I believe this is a very important issue in these days. I recently read the book by Jacob Prasch "Harpazo" which also deals with this subject. Quite heavy in depth book, but makes some very good points. You might want to check that out.

Thanks HeyDave

Thanks for your response, the price of the DVD is very reasonable and it has over 4 hours of information.
It is funny that you mention Jacob Prasch as I am currently watching some of his videos.

You order it direct from his website and cost of mail is excellent

I live in Australia and received it quickly and cheaply

I have also just ordered a CD from them re pre, mid and post trib looking at all scriptures

Shalom to you Brother

Thanks for your response TMK

I would agree with you totally if Jesus said the following words

But of that day and hour of my coming before the tribulation no man knows.

But Jesus did not say those words, quite the opposite.

In Matthew 24 verse 36 Jesus very clearly stated But of That Day.

In the Greek That word is a Demonstrative Pronoun and virtually means (that very same, self same day)
This implys that Jesus is talking about the Day of His Coming which He spoke about in verses 29-31

Jesus is not making reference to any other day, He is very clearly talking about the Day of His Coming which takes place sometime after the signs are seen in the Sky and that is sometime after the Tribulation has completely ended which we know is only 3 and a half years long.

We know that Jesus is talking about that Coming as He states this in verse 37 making reference to That Day Of His Coming, which is the very question the Disciples asked.

Jesus even instructs us to learn a parable regarding trees and that when summer is near the trees start to bud, Do we know the exact day summer starts NO but the signs are truly seen with the eye. Jesus did not say that Summer starts as soon as the buds start, Jesus said that Summer is near when you see the signs.

LIKEWISE Jesus said when we see all these signs we know that He is at the Door and we know our Redemption is near and we Know to Look Up. Jesus did not say that that was the Day, He said it is near and at the Door.

Do we still know the Day or Hour NO
But we do know that once (all) His Prophesied events are fully seen then we really need to watch as it can then happen at any day

Jesus even tells us when to look up and when He is at the Door.

All of Matthew 25 is talking about THAT very same Day of His Coming which He so clearly stated would happen after the Tribulation has completely ended.

No where in Scripture does Jesus state that He is Coming before the Tribulation.

But it clearly states in many passages in Old and New Testament that He is Coming after the Tribulation.

God Himself tells us when the First Resurrection takes place which is after the Tribulation has ended.

Jesus destroys the Antichrist at His Coming.

Budgie;

Thank you for an answer to my question.

This is Mark; Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is Paul; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Why is there such a stark difference in the two? One unto the elect, Israel and one unto the Body of Christ He being the Head of His Church>

One after the tribulation unto judgement and one unto the gathering of His body the Church meeting Our Lord and Head of His congregation, "in the air" catching us away, raptured, not judgement on this earth, Jesus then standing on this earth and sitting on the Throne of David, after the Tribulation and the Body of Christ being with Him at His physical presence on this earth, different from These final words which speak of our comfort, one all together in Him by these words, "caught up together with Him in the air."

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God, My Savior, My Brother and my Love:\\

Phillip

Can you please give me a clear verse where Jesus states clearly that He is Coming before the Tribulation, I have looked and I cannot find any, I can only find where He clearly states that He is Coming after the Tribulation has ended and after the signs are seen in the Sky. This is also repeated in Revelations and Daniel.

Can you also please give me a verse in the New Testament that clearly states that there is two comings, one before the Trib and one after the Trib, I can only find one and that as after the Trib.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that there is two Resurrections of the Just as I can only find the One Resurrection of the just.

Can you also give me a verse where it states that the wheat will not stay with the tares until the end of the Age when Jesus comes and Resurrects the Just.

Can you also give me one verse that clearly states that the Rapture takes place before the Resurrection.

Can you also give me one verse that states that the Resurrection takes place before all of the prophecies regarding the antichrist are fulfilled, the prophecies must be fulfilled exactly as stated for him to be revealed.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus stated that he would raise us before the last day as I can only find where He states that it is the Last Day.

Can you please give me one verse where Jesus states that he will be coming twice and with Trumpets at all occasions as I can only find that it is one and not only one but it is the Last Trumpet, this also is confirmed in Revelations.

I am not sure why you used this ending

In Christ, waiting for His shout, a call of a Trumpet, and the Arch Angel Michael, to ever be with Jesus Christ My God

Is this not from Matthew 24 where Jesus clearly states that He is Coming after the Signs are seen in the Heavens, Shout, voice of Arch Angel and Trumpet of God.

Paul said that there is an order to the RESURRECTION singular, Christ first and afterwards at His Coming all in Christ.

That sounds like one Resurrection and if they are all in that Resurrection then there are not any Just left for another Resurrection, that is why it is another 1000 years before the second and Last Resurrection.

Please give me some clear verses from the word of God alone in your response, no theories.

Scripture is for doctrine not the words of man.

Budgie:

I am getting old 76 and It is challenging for me to answer individual questions asking for specific scriptures to prove the bibles stance on Pre-Trib. There is a very comprehensive study of the end times that Dr. Max D. Younce has published and is online. If you dare to study I would venture to say all the questions you ask of me would be completely and comprehensively answered.

http://heritagebbc.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/iknowwhoholdstomorrow_w_charts.pdf

Especially pages 91 forward.

Thank you for your time and answers to my questions.

The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

In Christ: Phillip

Thank you Christinyou for your reply and honesty, while I appreciate your age and have great respect towards you I am saddened that you cannot respond with one clear verse for the doctrine that you hold.
I was fortunate enough as to have never been brought up Pre, Mid or Post, I was fortunate enough to have not been given a Schofield bible.
I was astounded at the many differing doctrines of men regarding the return of Christ and began to search the scriptures to find out what Jesus and many others had to say, I find no errors in scripture and perfect harmony in scripture regarding the Coming of Christ.

You stated to me that you dare me to read Dr, Younce, I have read many and I say many various authors regarding the Coming of Christ on all sides, I have watched many videos by Chuck Missler etc. One thing that concerned me was the twisting of scripture and that there is not one single verse in all scripture that states that Jesus is Coming before the Tribulation, Jesus Himself stated clearly that His Coming would be after the Tribulation has ended and Jesus stated that this same day of His Coming after the Tribulation has ended no man knows the 24 hr day or what hour of that 24 hour day. Jesus said when you see ALL the signs then look up as that is when He will be at the Door.

You stated
The sheep are raptured pre-tribulation, seven years later the goats are condemned post tribulation.

GIVE me one verse that states that, it is not found in scripture, you will not find one verse to support that false teaching.

Jesus Himself stated that the wheat and tares would remain together until the end of the Age when He will send His angels to reap and the Resurrection takes place.

Give me one verse where Jesus states the Resurrection 7 years before the End of the Age, you wont find one.

God himself states when the First Resurrection takes place, but man teach a Doctrine that contradicts the words of God.

Paul declared that there is an order to the RESURRECTION, first Jesus then all in Christ at His Coming.

Resurrection is Resurrection and Paul tells us the Order and so does God, I will align myself with what scripture states not the lies of man.

Paul even told us what must happen before Christ Comes and gathers us to Himself, but some men say total contradiction to the word of God and say that Jesus will come before hand.

What is Truth, the words of Paul, Jesus, or God Himself or the theories of man that tickles the ear.

God said to not add and to not take way from what is written in Revelations, if God states when the FIRST Resurrection takes place then it is True.

The PreTrib view is not based on any scripture but on the words of men.

Give me one clear scriptural verse where the Word of God states that Jesus Comes before the Tribulation and that the Resurrection takes place before the Tribulation.

One clear scriptural verse to base your theory on.

Paul made it very clear in 2 Thessalonian 2 that it was deception to believe in the Coming of Christ prior to the Apostasy and prior to the revealing of the Son of Perdition.
Paul made it very clear to not believe any letter, word or spirit but to believe the word of God.
If the above is true then anyone that preaches against the very words of Paul is actually preaching deception.
I think that it is very wise to heed the words of Paul and not listen to anything that contradicts the word of God.
Do not be deceived for Christ will not come and will not gather us to Himself until the Apostasy AND the revealing of the son of perdition takes place.
Paul also stated that Jesus will destroy that same son of perdition at that very same Coming.
Nowhere in Scripture does Paul say that Jesus is Coming another two times.
Paul only taught of two Resurrections, the Resurrection of the Just and the Resurrection of the unjust and Paul himself desired to be in the Resurrection of the Just.
The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last.

Quote: """The Rapture according to Paul in 1 Thess 4 takes place after the Resurrection takes place as those who are Resurrected from the graves are Raptured up to the clouds together with us who are alive and have our bodies changed.
The Rapture is last."""

If the Rapture is last; who will be left in the 1000 reign of Christ with those that are raptured. If those that are raptured have their glorified bodies, they will not have any children, for there is neither male or female in the Kingdom.

If all the lost are cast into the lake of fire. Who will be left to reign over. All those that come out of the tribulation must live until the thousand years is up and those that join Satan and rebel against Christ and war against Him must come from the ones that did not take the mark of the beast and those that did and lied and are saved if not already dead, of whom Christ and the Body of Christ and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists will rule and reign trying to save many who will be born in the thousand year reign. If the rapture comes at the end of the tribulation, what the scripture teaches is not possible. Only those that take part in the first resurrection (rapture), the Bride of Christ, the born again Christ in them, sons' of the Father will rule and reign in the millennium those that have taken part in the Judgement Seat of Christ and the Marriage supper of the Lamb, those that; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

There can be no Post tribulation rapture or partial rapture.

1. All raptured Christians receive their glorified bodies (Romans 8:22,23; and 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
2. There are no children born to glorified bodies. (Matthew 22:23-30
3. All unsaved are cast into Hell before the 1,000 Year Kingdom Reign of Christ. (Revelation 19:11-21 and Matthew 25:41)

Quote by Dr. Younce;

""If the Rapture is post Tribulation, several problems arise with impossible solutions. Where do the mortal bodies come from of those that are born during the Millennium and rebel at the conclusion of the Millennium? (Revelation 20:7-10). There would be no lost people alive to have children, so they cannot come from them. All of the saved have their glorified bodies. No children can be born to them as a result of a Post Tribulation Rapture Remember; at the end of Christ’s 1,000 Year Reign there are unbelievers who will give their allegiance to Satan in an attempt to defeat Christ. (Revelation 20:7-10). How would they get their human bodies? Placing the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and the start of the Millennium makes an impossible situation. At the Rapture all Christians have their glorified bodies, which do not produce human beings. All the lost are cast into Hell at the end of the Tribulation Period. Therefore, the philosophy of a Post-Tribulation Rapture is impossible.

The Post-Tribulation Rapture philosophy also leads to other false doctrines. Colossians 2:8 is God’s warning concerning false teachers.""

In Christ: Waiting for; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, (Michael) and with the trump of God: (not the last trump) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is just one proof of the pre-trib rapture, there are many others. This is gathered logical truth finding of Scripture against Scripture to paint the whole picture.

Phillip