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Are you ready for the big reveal?

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

I saw this video on Facebook and I thought it was a fascinating way to put the earth in perspective to the rest of the universe. It shows just how grand God's creation is and how exceedingly little we know about it:

http://www.iflscience.com/space/how-big-our-place-universe

In addition to this, you may have noticed that yesterday it was announced that they have proof of liquid water on Mars.

I suspect within a couple of years, 10 at the most, that we will be hearing an announcement that life has been discovered elsewhere. It may only be microbes, but life nonetheless.

Are you ready for such an announcement? Will it shake your faith? Why or why not?

If you are an "alien-denier" (like my wife) even after seeing the scope of the video (and by this I mean you do not believe there is even one bacteria or other single cell creature in the entire universe) is it a personal belief or do you think scripture somehow precludes it? And if you think scripture precludes it what verse(s) do you rely on?

D
dolfan Sep 29, 2015

Well, let's take a moment. They have inferred water from other evidence, and their explanation fails to account for its source. Streaks on equatorial craters that change colors over seasons imply seepage of water, they say. But, the Martian ice is near the poles and there are no rivers. There may be water today on Mars, but this is not as much of a finding as the hype suggests. It could be hype that dovetails with the new Martian movie.

Secondly, I do not believe in intelligent life anywhere but Earth. Admitted. But, microbial life is not a big deal.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

The scriptures are silent for a reason.

God doesn't warn or prepare people for non-events.

He is not an alarmist, or a denier.

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Point taken, Tim. They say there is liquid water but it actually hasn't been seen yet. That Martian movie looks pretty decent. They showed the trailer when we saw War Room.

Julius, you said that God does not prepare people for non-events and that He is not an alarmist or denier.

Does this mean that you think discovery of life elsewhere would be a non-event, (as in no big deal) or that it is not possible per scripture?

D
dolfan Sep 29, 2015

Here is my own take on ET alien intelligence.

If they haven't found us then they may be no smarter than us and maybe so dumb as to not even imagine we exist.

We haven't found them, and until we do we are only speculating which can be fun and interesting but that is about it.

There is still no definitive find of a habitable planet of similar mass to Earth with an atmosphere similar to ours.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

I'm not sure how many believers understand the Atheist thrust behind the diggers in the dirt and the diggers in the stars.

NASA and the Archeoligist are both very intent on finding an Iron Clad biblical error. The Archeloisgist know that if they can uncover some find that throws doubt on a geographical or timeline error they can build an entire argument around it. NASA is doing a similar thing with the planets.

The life on other planet debate is in many ways a cornerstone of Christian Thoelogy. If your a Christian and you beleive that there is or could have been life on another planet your theology is extremely problematic.


marcmc

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Marc- that is why I asked if you would be ready when this is announced some day. Obviously you won't be.

Why is my theology problematic if I believe there is some form of life elsewhere? I still believe God put it there, despite what atheists and scientists believe.

Also, if your view of satan is correct, he should be strewing fake alien bones all over the surface of Mars for the rover to find.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

by TMK on 2015/9/29 9:18:48

Julius, you said that God does not prepare people for non-events and that He is not an alarmist or denier.

Does this mean that you think discovery of life elsewhere would be a non-event, (as in no big deal) or that it is not possible per scripture?

non-event = something that does not exist

If it existed it would be the biggest deal in the existence of mankind since the incarnation of the Savior.

What is the Holy Spirit telling you regarding why God has only seen fit to tell us about life on this planet?

What the Holy Spirit is telling me is this:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image...
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Nothing about aliens which would certainly be classified as a "wonder" and nothing about life on other planets, which most people would regard as "gods".

2Tim_3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

2Th_2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and LYING WONDERS.

If I am not being direct enough...

It is a colossal waste of time to entertain "life" which the Lord has not spoken about. God is not the Deceiver.

Let's just say, Alien life is discovered. How, from the scriptures has God prepared us to relate to that life? Are they human, do they need a Savior, do we preach the Gospel to them?


sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

There is no life on another planet is easy to prove from an Arminian position and only takes longer to explain from a reformed position.

John 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Only begotten. One Son means one creation. Any other creation would have massive problems for the bible. The first would have a creation that was incapable of falling and therefore would be totally robotic and the second would have to be a creation that so far hasn't fallen but could potentialy in the future. And as God has already demonstrated the true requirements of His Rightous demands in the Crucfiction of His Son. His problem would be He only has One Son. One Son means one body, one kingdom, one creation.

marcmc

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Come on now Julius- you are not going to use the "it's not in the Bible so it can't be true" argument are you?

I could list all sorts of things that are not mentioned in the Bible but are perfectly true- but it would take the rest of my life to do it.

So it is obvious in both yours and Marc's theology that you would have a huge difficulty dealing with such an announcement. Rather than saying such a thing is simply not possible (even though the earth is only a minuscule speck in the universe) I am interested in how you will deal with it if it is discovered (other than shouting "fake").

I am truly interested. I ask my wife this and she really doesn't have an answer.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

TMK,

My position is iron clad based upon the revealed character of God in the Bible. If a believer could not see that the Only Begotten absolutely destroys any other hypothesis it's because his biblical understanding is weak.

I have witnessed to thousands on unsaved people and this is just another of their objections like why did Jesus not know the earth was round ( He did of course) or what happened to the Dinysours?

Their nonsense imaginations dreamed up by carnal minds with a sliver thin view of time.

marcmc

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

Come on now Julius- you are not going to use the "it's not in the Bible so it can't be true" argument are you?

I could list all sorts of things that are not mentioned in the Bible but are perfectly true- but it would take the rest of my life to do it.

So it is obvious in both yours and Marc's theology that you would have a huge difficulty dealing with such an announcement.

It wouldn't be difficult for me. I would think they were demons.

Rather than saying such a thing is simply not possible (even though the earth is only a minuscule speck in the universe) I am interested in how you will deal with it if it is discovered (other than shouting "fake").

I am truly interested. I ask my wife this and she really doesn't have an answer.

I am also interested in how you will deal with it. I would rebuke them in the name of Jesus Christ.

Well, this is not a small thing, is it? This would be classified as very, very big. I know there are some small things not in the Bible, and you are right, I don't usually use the "It's not in the Bible", route.

But, this BIG thing is not in the Bible is it?

Would you please tell me, if God has supplied any direction for you to relate to these "beings". Do you relate to them with the Gospel or outside of it. We really have not been given any instructions how to relate to someone outside of the Gospel. "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

What if they don't know anything about Jesus Christ?

The Bible speaks about man's condition, but not about alien's condition. How will you proceed? Will you decide that they are sinless and above men? What if they can do astounding things that man cannot do? Will you worship them? In short, will you lose your faith in Jesus Christ, if these aliens can do what man describes as miraculous signs and wonders?

So, let's just assume they exist and you get to meet one and they are nice and friendly and tell you that they have travelled from one end of the universe to another and have not found anyone named Jesus Christ (I kind of expect that). They are also very kind and benevolent and can actually save our planet from all of it's woes. And they are over 1000 years old and don't remember anyone having an old age problem and dying. How will you relate to them. Surely, it seems you have thought of all of these things.

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Good one Julius- made me chuckle. I hear you- and Marc as well.

But I haven't really said anything about intelligent and emotional life. Then we are getting into far dicier ground because arguably an intelligent emotional being may have a soul and may also have been created in God's image.

But I have only mentioned the most simplest forms of life- like bacteria or lichen or algae. I don't think they would have souls and wouldn't pose the same issues from a theo standpoint.

I've heard the demon theory; I guess anything is possible. But if you try to rebuke one they might hit you with their phaser.

Would you be disappointed some day to find out there are all sorts of marvelous things that God never saw fit to tell us about? Personally I think it would be pretty awesome.

Example:

Me: Jesus, your Grand Canyon was so amazing!
Jesus: Yes, but you should see the ice caverns on Regulon 4.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

Truly? I don't think about such things.

I want to be about my Father's business and He has not shared any of that "business", with me.

So, it won't alter my desire to fulfill God's will in my life and I don't think it will alter God's will for me, either.

I imagine finding a new life form in Antarctica would have the same effect on me as finding a new life form on Regulon 4. None!

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Fair enough-

I just don't want Christians to freak out when it happens, because I am pretty certain it's going to happen.

I view it similarly to you- if they find life on another planet or moon it would be similar (for me) to them finding a new life form in the Marianus trench. I think it would be fascinating; I just personally don't limit the possibility for such discoveries to planet earth.

J
JFW Sep 29, 2015

Brother Todd,
In either case the video was enjoyable as it displays how unimaginably amazing our God is that this is all His!
There are scriptural references that do seem to allude to it as a pontential if not a fact... For example when Jesus states that wherever the gospel is preached in the entire "world" (Kosmos) she will be remembered for what she has done for me this day. One definition of Kosmos being universe...
Also Hebrews speaks of the worlds (plural- aiōn) being framed by His word. Aiōn can also be defined as universe. There are other examples that I'd imagine were noted as peculiar in your studying out the scriptures.
So since the universe was/is framed by His word and His word is life.... I mean it's not a stretch (for me) to see it as a very real possibility tho I'm not ignorant to the fact that we could also be deceived by demonic principalities masquerading as such.

Again in either case I for one really enjoy learning about creation itself as it often requires me to just sit in awe of what all He has done and the awesomeness of it all is both stimulating and humbling.
While living in NYC shortly after 9/11 I had the opportunity to visit the Rose Hadden planetarium and they had a very impressive extended version of the video you posted as their current event. One of the best experiences of my time in NY and def most I ever got for $20 there.

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Mountain gorillas were not discovered until 1902.

Not sure why I felt compelled to share that.

D
dolfan Sep 29, 2015

One thing I plan not to do here is jab at your Christian walk based on your belief of alien intelligence. :) My goodness.

God could -- in His infinitude, and because it pleases Him to do so, and since as His creation I cannot truly object to what pleases Him, and I must leave to Him to do according to the counsel of His own will -- create any number of planets with any forms of intelligent life that He saw fit to create. After all, before He created us, He created the angelic hosts. The realm(s) in which they exist
is fully His decision, just like He has determined where men shall live (Acts 17:26).

It does not shake my faith or belief one iota. In fact, in some ways I suppose it could increase my understanding of Him, and that is a blessing.


But, if He has created extraterrestrial-but-planetary alien intelligent life, I doubt we'll ever know it in this life. Why not?

First, we've been here this long and there's no reason to think they'll arrive, and there's no reason to think we'll reach them --- even by radio signals traveling at the speed of light through the cosmos.

Secondly, if He had intended to reveal Himself to us through that kind of creation by Him, it seems to me that He would've fit that kind of revelation up under the revelation of Himself to us in Christ. It would require a wholly new invention of exegesis and interpretation to make that work, and we're not up to task and never will be, IMO. Can you imagine? We can't even figure out if these recent "blood moons" matter or if there's a Shemitah up in here, and we sure can't agree on how to understand Scripture with those simple things. How could we ever hope that morons like us** would ever reach the knowledge of how alien intelligent life reflects the Scriptural revelation of God in Christ?(**NOTE, my tongue is in my cheek here!! I say that about myself as Chief Moron and the rest of you as lesser morons or comparative geniuses about life in general, although when compared to God Himself we haven't even learned to mumble coherently. Please don't be offended. I'm joking.)

Third, it appears the most we'll be able to do scientifically is surmise the existence of these intelligent beings. All of the instruments we've spent billions of dollars to float around the earth or to sail the seas of our solar system and beyond, and we've made enormous artwork of it. We are bedazzled by pictures and the oversimplified, crayon-written explanations by journalists. And, what we have are theories. Some theories are based on equations and probabilities all of which require that some variables are manipulated by sheer assumption or at least by presupposition that is supported by less than certain data. Other theories are arrived at by theoretical physicists who, as the very name implies, create theories for a living and have a vested interest in occasionally hitting upon something that they can make appear as actual. We don't even have the level of proof that it takes to convict somebody of a crime -- and THAT level of proof is expressly less than "scientific proof"***
(***NOTE: Proof beyond reasonable doubt is almost universally defined in the US as not requiring proof to a scientific certainty, although the CSI shows and Forensic Files, etc., would create the opposite yet very untrue impression.)

It is, in part perhaps, because we are willing to accept partial proof as total proof in areas of our common experience that we are compelled a bit to side with the scientists in filling in gaps between what is known and what is theorized. But, even the scientists do not have "experience" in these things since none of them has ever found an inhabited planet -- or a necessarily habitable one -- with intelligent life beyond this one. They get paid to a whole lot of looking for it, but there is no base of experience in their failed searching that will ever lead me to give them a benefit of doubt in their theories on this particular question.

sermonindex Sep 29, 2015

dolfan,

He could not redeem another life form. Angels were create as ministering agents for the heirs of salvation. The ones that rebelled have no opportunity of redemption for reasons made clear in the scripture.

Any other beings on any other planet created for any other purpose would rebel, fall and have no redeemer. You guys are all Armenian (free will)I can't fathom how that is hard to understand. Unless of course you think that God can do anything because He is God. Which of course would be even more rediculous.

PS please don't make me list the countless things that God cannot do!

marcmc

T
TMK Sep 29, 2015

Well said Tim. I don't disagree with you.

Marc- you mean questions like "could God create another God exactly like Himself?"

But you still haven't said how you would react if they discover alien life. Humor me and pretend for a moment.

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