Eschatology I hate this subject

Eschatology I hate this subject :-P Brother, God bless you man!Bear with me I am laughing and smiling and almost wanting to cry at the same time!Karl, thank you. Where to start here is difficult so I will just do the usual and bounce all over the place.Part of this is to 'rebuke' you a little bit here. You are indeed a servant of the Lord and He used you to smite my own shallowness right out of this very subject that I too practically'despise', and it gave me a lift to see that heading and caused the laughter to come forth. If you recall, our (my) little controversy there early on was in what I perceived you to be as something of a universalist, not to forget about the whole God is not angry thread...So in a nut shell I jumped the rails in 'judging' you in my head from what you were saying and forgot to practice the same thing that the tendency to preach about here in forbearance with one another. Flatly I had it all wrong and here it is another day and another saint that we all glean much from, think not to lowly of yourself (worthless as it is :-P ...DONT GET ME WRONG now, all these filthy rags, you know the deal, I know what worth I am of as well...) But you are a saint, a child of the Most High...1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.Praise God! The battle is getting back to that simplicity. I sometimes wish that there was another bible to read. Oh please don't miscontrude what I just said, please DO NOT. When you've perverted every teaching that is written in the bible, it's difficult to read that same bible, because all you see is the perverse teachings that you have held unto. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, I am not saying that the bible teachings are perverse.Ah... most certainly understanding you here Karl, it's that jaded thinking and I am telling you it can be done, this blessed idea that was picked up from brother Zac Poonen...if I could find that message again... that we can leave these things at the foot of the cross and come emptied and read the scriptures as if for the first time, everyday, he articulates it so much better, but it has 'stuck' in my thinking for quite some time now. Sure it's imperfect, it takes some time to dump everything that has accumulated over time, but it almost forces you to loosen the grip even more on the disputable, the secondary, shoot even what ultimately becomes more and more secondary, not with out import, just in the grand scheme of things, the pecking order.Bouncing again...At one time I was eager to go into the ministry, Today, I am saying, "LORD move upon someone else who has more to give, I've got nothing to give and nothing to offer, I am an unprofitable servant, if I am one".If you choose to, go ahead and agree with the devil on this point if I may lift just the principle here a moment;Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:And then send him packing with a wave of the hand, he is a liar still. What of it? What is it that he is telling you that you don't already know? What can you do to a dead dog? (To borrow again from Zac) I must find this message brother, I believe all this comes from the same topic he was discussing. The point is...Gal 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.Rebounding again... Our Brother Aaron from Ireland has brought up a wonderful piece of writing that I think everyone should take the time to read.The Future History of the ChurchOh I do concur! I am sorry but this just makes far too much sense and maybe I am mixed up here, but it seems to coincide fairly well with another series from Edgar F. Parkyns on Church History - 10 Sessions or directly (The order is easier to follow from the link from Greg above) Edgar F. ParkynsBy the way, I think this is what I was referring to earlier The Way of the Cross by Zac PoonenOf course all this is but a cog somewhat to;The battle is getting back to that simplicityAnd I know of what you speak here Karl, 10 part series likely the last thing to delve into now and maybe some less heavy weight doctrinally exhortation from Zac a helpful bit of medicine or none of the above. That the Lord grant you the simplicity of thought and rest for the mind right now. My prayers are towards that for you and even my own self, I know the folly and the things I can get caught up in when what is needed is just a distraction from my own mind musings and to simply cease striving and know.

Healingwaters wrote:The subject of Eschatology is something that I never wanted to learn, I still don't. I don't like being a Preterist, I don't like being a Futurist either. I just like to be a normal believer, and believe what everyone else believes. What can I say :cry:. I had a feeling that this was how you felt, but due to the 'worldly principle' of piting opposites against each other, felt anecessity to confront one extreme against another. Personally, I have gone from being a christian who was uncomfortable about the 'pre-trib' view point, to being one who said, "All I know is, Jesus comes, I leave. Period", ignoring the issues of eschatology. To rejecting 'pre-trib'. To admitting my ignorance to the whole thing, believing that I won't know until the end (or at least near the end).Bless you bro', I'm glad you're getting something out of Prasch (he can be a bit hard to handle at times):-).

Karl,Why is it, that whenever I open my mouth to put out a fire, I end up igniting another:-( (I think James had something to say about this). By saying "Christ comes, I leave", I meant in the sence of, the final curtain being lowered, imediately preceding "Judgement Day", or whether by "living in Christ", or "death toward gain".Similar to what I perceive in you, there was a difference between what I "embraced" (for want of a better term), in order to keep me on the straight and narrow, and what I actually beileved, which was that I really didn't know or cared about. Now, apart from a near total rejection of pre-trib (which I believe is distracting the bulk of christendom from the need to prepare for suffering persecution, as a result of living godly, in Christ Jesus - 2 Tim 3:12) I have no real concrete opinions, but a fluid "game plan" (again for want of a better term) of potential senarios. I personally like this Keith Green quote, "I believe we should pray for a pre-trib rapture, and prepare for post-trib."One major thought that entered my head was, "How dare I consider eschatology to be irrelevant, when spripture deals with it, from such a variety of sources (inlcuding all the prophets, Moses, Paul, John, and of course...Jesus Himself)? Isn't it arrogant of me consider the exploration of the theme, to be beneath me?" (here I go, lighting another fire again) At the end of the day, I take a degree of comfort that the earnest seeker of truth, will inevitably find it.

I used to hate eschatology until I saw how much of the apostle Paul's theology is eschatological in nature. The only thing I hate for often passes as eschatology today is that people assert with great confidence on matters that are rather speculative. I cannot stand most "prophecy teachers" these days because of it. Never did God call one to be a prophecy teacher... but God did call men to be teachers. Sadly, some Christians become so over studied in one area and yet are still on milk in others. It's amazing how many prophecy experts out there today don't even know much of anything else on the Bible. Paul warned Timothy of this in 1 Timothy 1.

The only thing I hate for often passes as eschatology today is that people assert with great confidence on matters that are rather speculative.Challenged once again by my own words...That we mere men have couched and labeled so many areas not with perhaps any ill intent but to make them a study unto themselves... 'Calvinism' and it's opposite... 'Predestination'... 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit'... 'Pre-Post-Present-Future Millenalism'... Eschatology...The list is a mile long.Tozer:"Traditionally Christianity has been the religion of the common people. Whenever the upper classes have adopted it in numbers it has died. Respectability has almost always proved fatal to it.The reasons back of this are two, one human and the other divine. Schleiermacher has pointed out that at the bottom of all religion there lies a feeling of dependence, a sense of creature helplessness. The simple man who lives close to the earth lives also close to death and knows that he must look for help beyond himself. He knows that there is but a step between him and catastrophe. As he rises in the social and economic scale he surrounds himself more and more protective devices and pushes danger (so he thinks) farther and farther from him. Self- confidence displaces the feeling of dependence he once knew and God becomes less necessary to him. Should he stop to think this through he would know better than to place his confidence in things and people, but so badly are we injured by our moral fall that we are capable of deceiving ourselves completely and, if conditions favor it, to keep up the deception for a lifetime."One major thought that entered my head was, "How dare I consider eschatology to be irrelevant, when spripture deals with it, from such a variety of sources (inlcuding all the prophets, Moses, Paul, John, and of course...Jesus Himself)? Isn't it arrogant of me consider the exploration of the theme, to be beneath me?" (here I go, lighting another fire again) At the end of the day, I take a degree of comfort that the earnest seeker of truth, will inevitably find it.Ouch, yes, thanks Aaron. Needed that rebuke to my own sloppiness, being that also confirms the same similar thoughts dragged away from here yesterday and the odd recurrence of one 'theme' that keeps popping up; The second coming of the Lord.What I despise is certainly the odd divisive nature of surety amongst brethren with different perspective on matters, that they can so easily turn to self cannibalization of each other. One thing to discuss quite another to devour. And as Aaron stated it is one thing to think we are above such things as to be wholly dismissive of them. Would like to think and believe that like many of these areas the opposite is true, that they are so lofty and beyond us that the wonder is the audacity of such surety to explain mysteries that belong only to God Himself (Pre-destination being another particular frustration and example).Was listening yesterday to an audio book on A.J. Gordon and after 25 years of ministry the truly wonderful thing was the ability and willingness to still have his mind changed, that we might all be of similar minds if the Lord tarries and we become aged and cantankerous old farts. There was a lot of ground covered but within that the areas of 'eschatology' kept coming into play and the lost or rather sidelined issue of the second coming of our Lord, of eternity are difficult to get away from. In fact it was in large part that so much rode on the second coming throughout scripture and even church history that Gordon found to be the error of how they conducted themselves in all that they were doing even so late into his ministry. Eventually it changed the whole structure and focus around. Much more could be said but to be flippantly dismissive of such things as the way I put it was just wrong, regardless of my intent.I do despise the warring factions over it and most certainly it is beyond me, not bellow me and to relegate it to a dismissive mindset is just as cocky as being adamant about that which we think we have all figured out.

Healingwaters wrote:Our focus must be placed back on Christ NOT an Antichrist. The bible serves as a reference to point us to Christ. We can't live by what the bible says, it will only kill us, but what we do live is that new life that is found only in the living reality of experiencing Jesus Christ. ...The angel told John, "Don't seal the book for the time is at hand".And yet, that same John took the trouble to warn us that "antichrist is coming" (1 John 4).Aaron see what you have started, grrrrrrrrrrrr :-P Hehehehe...:-)You're not alone, in this. We're all here for you (and no I'm not being sarcastic). I don't know if you've listened to Art Katz before, but may I recomend Future Trends for the Body of Christ, or Be Ye Perfect and then read Apostolic Foundations, particularly the chapter on Apostolic Realities: Principalities and Powers, and perhaps Apostolic Perception: Eternity, to see the sence of humor of God, in forcing prophets to look into things that they'd prefer to ignore.

Karl, I am sorry to hear that you hate this subject, but can understand it also: the arguing that usually follows a discussion about eschatology. And what else makes it so difficult are all the other writings out there which serves more to confuse then edify. I love the book of Revelation: it is my favorite New Testament book. I will not read any other commentary on the book, magazine article or book. There is a promise to those who read it, and those who hear and heed the word of this prophecy (Rev. 1:3). Now since there is a blessing in the reading, would not make sense that it is the devil that is working hard to prevent this from happening by creating confusion and discouraging people from reading it? My suggestion for you is to approach the book prayerfully, asking for Holy Spirit illumination and read it for its own sake. Don't think you have to understand what era of time this portion is referring to. Just read and visulize what John saw. All the book is is the telling of a vision. Now what is so hard to understand about that? Then ask yourself this question: what does his portion teach me about the nature of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit? Profound lessons there. Blessings to you Karl. Try it and then let us know what happens. Ginnyrose

O Lord that thou would show ...Fresh eyes to seeFresh ears to hearEmptied of selfThat the heart and the mind might recieve You...And the scroll was opened and the eyes fell to..."The Revelation of Jesus Christ"......which God gave Him to show His servants-things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant......... John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the ..... words of this prophecy,..... and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near. (NKJV)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth...Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. .... Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;.... Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished. ...and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {KJV}~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?....Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. ... for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 2Pe 3:1-7~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.