Adam's Sin

What was the punishment for Adam's sin? Physical death, spiritual death or eternal punishment?

bubbaguy wrote:Adam's (Mankind's) sin was to violate Genesis 1:29 and to take up the eating of animal flesh. BubbaguyThat is not an answer I had expected! I also do not think it is correct. The judgment for Adam's sin was given in Genesis 3. It is also referred to (or at least its consequences) in Romans 5:12ff. I agree that until Noah man was a herbivore. However, it is not until after the flood that God permits man to eat animal flesh. It is not the result of Adam's sin, it comes later. Secondly, I do not think that it could be called a punishment. It is not a punishment imposed by God but God giving his permission given for man to do something which he had previously not done. God does not tempt us to sin and I cannot see how he could say to Noah, you can now eat meat and then punish him for sinning. It would be dishonest and disingenuous - sometheing that we know God never is.

Griffo wrote:What was the punishment for Adam's sin? Physical death, spiritual death or eternal punishment?I think we can disregard bubbaguys comments, in light of Gen 9:3 (granted, trees do move in the wind 8-)), that is unless he is quoting from the New World Translation or something (after all, why would God command him to sin?).Adam's punishment was Physical (hey, he's not alive now, is he?). I personally believe that he repented of his sin, and was forgiven as one who looked toward Christ, as represented in the sacrifice of animals. Also, he would have been one of the men who "called upon the name of the Lord", after Enosh. Bear in mind, that Adam was alive when Lamech (Noah's father) was walking on the earth. He would have known Enoch, and Methuselah. In all, I believe that Adam had to go through the humbling experience of learning about a God he once knew, personally, from decendants who were born long after his expulsion from the garden, and yet had stumbled across intimate knowledge of Him.

CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Adam's punishment was Physical (hey, he's not alive now, is he?). I can't fault your logic there. So physical death must have at least been part of the punishment.My question is rooted in Romans 5:12- in Adam all sinned. If we all sinned in Adam, we all are liable to punishment for his sin. Was his punishment just physical death or was it more. Certainly, the context in Romans 5:12 is physical death, but doesn't sin always result in eternal punishment?

Griffo wrote:Certainly, the context in Romans 5:12 is physical death, but doesn't sin always result in eternal punishment?1 Cor 11:31-32, brings up the issue of 'Krisis' negating the necessity of eternal punishment. How great a punishment is 930 years of living a life, knowing that you're not as close to God as you could be.

we can disregard Jake/Bubbaguys notions on this. They are the speculations of a mind undisciplined by proper respect for the word of God. They are fantasies. Some of us have listened to these things a few times before. He does not believe the Bible except where he can fit it into his theories.The sentence that God warned Adam of, was that 'in the day you eat, you shall surely die'. Adam's body took almost a century to die so it is clear that physical death was not the main thrust of the warning. Nevertheless Paul tells us in Romans 5 that 'sin entered and death by sin'. This took place at the moment (day) of Adam's sin but the consequences were not fully worked out in the physical realm for many a year.Hebrew language has a way of doubling up an idea to intensify it. So we have the Song of Songs, meaning the best or ultimate song; and the Holy of Holies, meaning the ultimate place of holiness etc. the Lord of Lords and King of Kings are all part of this way of intensifying a statement. James' tells us the Elijah prayed earnestly, but the language behind it says 'he prayed in his praying'. This constantly happens in the Bible. "Thou wilt keep in in perfect peace", is literally "thou wilt keep him in peace peace".The Gen 2:17 warning is literally 'dying thou shalt die'. This is the ultimate death. This spiritual death was illustrated in the later physical death of Adam's body, but the centre of this warning is spiritual death.

Well said Ron.Dan/\\/\\/\\

I have compassion for bubbaguy and his answer. We have to remember that what bubbaguy shared with us is not just a theory or "good or bad theology" but bubbaguy is a person with feelings just like all the rest of us. What I am saying is let us have compassion knowing that we have said some things that others have not agreed with and gave us a harsh word in response to our sharing our heart. I know in the past that here on SI I could of had more love and compassion in my responses to other peoples posts. Let us show kindness, gentleness, love and compassion to our fellow brethren and sisters. And please show me grace, I need grace. P.S. My responce is not adressing if bubbaguy's statement is correct or not. This post is not about that. It is about showing love. And I know that even this post is lacking. That is why I need grace.

philologos wrote:The Gen 2:17 warning is literally 'dying thou shalt die'. This is the ultimate death. This spiritual death was illustrated in the later physical death of Adam's body, but the centre of this warning is spiritual death.Ok, but I find it hard to separate spiritual death from eternal punishment. Although, thinking about it, I suppose that eternal punishment does not invitably follow from spiritual death, rather both are the consequence of sin. But surely eternal punishment is always the penalty of sin? This is certainly how I read verses the wages of sin are death. Would you say that death here is also spiritual death?

At the moment we are sort of in a time of amnesty (Praise God), i.e. judgment is yet to take place, otherwise we would physically die the moment we comitted our first sin.

hrediiI have been in fairly frequent communication, both publicly and privately, with Jake over the last couple of years. His views are not Christian nor biblical. They are an amalgam of buddhism, rationalism and where it suits biblical texts. He is a pseudo-Quaker believing that his 'witness' is the ultimate test of the biblical revelation. His inner 'light' is darkness and it would not be loving to try to gentle him out of it. Jake thinks I hate him; he is mistaken, but I love truth especially biblical truth and will not stand silent when it is dragged into the mud. My attacks are not against Jake but against his ideas.

Griffo wrote:What was the punishment for Adam's sin? Physical death, spiritual death or eternal punishment?There is so much in these first few chapters in Genesis! In Ephesians 5:30-32 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Quoting Genesis 2:24. So in Genesis 2 we find God's great mystery. In the first 3 verses of the bible we find the Father, Spirit and the Word. In Genesis 3 we find the promise of the Christ. And there is so much more.Here is part of a tract that I like that shares the fall a little bit.To fulfill His plan, God made man as a vessel (Rom. 9:21-24). This vessel has three parts: body, soul, and spirit (1 Thes. 5:23). The body contacts and receives the things of the physical realm. The soul, the mental faculty, contacts and receives the things of the psychological realm. And the human spirit, the innermost part of man, was made to contact and receive God Himself (john 4:24). Man was created not merely to contain food in his stomach, or to contain knowledge in his mind, but to contain God in his spirit (Eph. 5:18).Bit before man could receive God as life into his spirit, sin entered into him (Rom. 5:12). Sin deadened his spirit (Eph. 2:1), made him an enemy of God in his mind (Col 1:21), and transmuted his body into sinful flesh (Gen. 6:3; Rom. 6:12). Thus, sin damaged all three parts of man, alienating him from God. In this condition man could not receive God.I thought it would be edifying because it shares how the fall affected all three parts of man. What there purposes were before the fall and the result of the fall. It is very general and just touches these points.

Would you say that death here is also spiritual death?I would say that would be because 'death' in scripture mainly denotes the idea of separation. At physical death your soul and spirit seperate from your body. At spiritual death man was seperated from God until a reconciliation could take place. Yet, there was a great offense that must be dealt with as man had sinned against God and become the enemy of God. He yielded to the course of this world and the Prince of the Power of the Air; that 'spirit' now works in them. Man was enemies by wicked works. Man had a propensity to sin and had a list of transgressions and acts of disobedience that deserve a just penalty. This is why we need a propitiation for our sins. We need the price paid to bring reconciliation to God. Christ's blood is that propitiation and it is appropriated by the Holy Spirit to us when we turn to Christ in saving faith. This is the reconciliation that takes away the sting of death and the victory of the grave. The second death is when those who rejected Christ are cast alive into the Lake of Fire along with the Devil and His Angels. They sinned away their day of grace and trod under foot the blood of the covenant that they might sanctified- counting it as an unholy thing. This is the greatest sin of all and warrants the greatest penalty. Eternal seperation from God (Eternal Death). God Bless,-Robert

Griffo“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God.” (John 3:14-21, ASV)I have quoted this passage at length and in the ASV simply because the KJV is a bit inconsistent in its translation of various words relating to the legal process; this should appeal to you. ;-) The passage has the dangers of 'eternal punishment' in view as we can see from 3:16 above. The alternative to 'everlasting/eternal life' is 'perishing' which I take to be as 'eternal' as the life. The question then is who is in danger of this 'perishing'? From the next few verses it appears to be 'him who has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God'. Is this the whole heathen world? If the penalty is a result of 'not believing' and, according to Paul, they cannot believe unless they hear, (Rom 10:14) does this mean that whole generations have 'perished' because they did not 'believe in the name of the only begotten Son of God? I know there are many who believe this, many that I respect very highly, but I cannot share this view.It seems to me that John 3 above is giving us the other side of the coin of “That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” (John 1:9-12, KJVS) In John 1 we read of those who embraced the testimony of the Son; in John 3 we read of the threat hanging over those who reject this testimony.In this view 'eternal punishment' would be the consequence of those who consciously rejected the testimony of Jesus Christ. The consequence brought upon us by Adam's sin is nowhere said to be 'eternal punishment' as far as I am aware. “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” (Rom. 5:18, KJVS) (where the words in italics have been added by the translators and do not form the original text.) The pattern seems clear that what passed to the whole race, as a result of Adam's disobedience, was 'the death'. 'the death' being the death that Adam experienced in the day that he ate of the forbidden tree.The last verse of in Youngs Literal Translation reads “for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Rom. 6:23, YNG) Notice 'the sin' rather than 'sin' or 'sins'.

...all suggest relatedness of all animals and man.They are related. God created all of them.

philologos wrote:I love truth especially biblical truth and will not stand silent when it is dragged into the mud. My attacks are not against Jake but against his ideas.Here, here. And I wouldn't be overely polite when trying to wrestle someone out of the path of a truck, either.

bubbaguy wrote:quote:..is not my theory....The converse of your statement, Ron, is that you do not believe in the findings of science unless they fit with your literalist interpretation of the Bible.The issue isn't whether you came up with these theories or not, but whether you have taken ownership of them. With regard to the second statement...."And...?"