Covenants made with Israel and the one new man - PT II

D

docs Oct 28, 2015

This is an attempt at a few replies to my former questions. I hope I'm not out of line by starting a new thread but the other one jumped to a longer length than I anticipated and I get sort of lost trying to sort my way through all of the repolies whcih I appreciate,. And I'm not trying to put proudpapa or anyone on the spot but just to have a clean thread not so full.

For proudpapa. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you sooner.

I asked,

RE: /// but I'm asking for answers from those who believe it would be building dividing walls again. What is your reasoning for this?

You replied,

Racism is done away with in the Body of Christ

'There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.'

'Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all. ' (END)

Doc: The former wall of partition was established by God Himself so was God the official founder of this racism or was there a larger purpose behind the middle wall of partition being established? Could there have been a larger purpose beyond the outward appearance of this "racism?"

You wrote,

He argues that there is only one Israel of God””comprised of both Jews and Gentiles who are children of Abraham through their faith in Christ.' (END)

Doc: Yet pre-mill believers of which I am one totally agree with that premise. Therefore, if Israel is to be the recepient of a millennial exaltation as a servant nation devoid of carnal nationalistic self interests and dedicated to the service of others it would simply be the true Israel of God receiving this destiny and demonstrating the number one virtue of humility and servanthood that the greatest among you at shall be the servant of all. If they are saved and born again they could be no other than the true Israel of God. What believer or theolgian if you will has ever stated that this blessing is to come to them outside of their being born again?

You wrote,

Lets remember the Bible clearly says that God is not a respecter of persons.

The idea that the physical nation of Israel (because of the race of there flesh) has a place of headship among the nations in the future is a view that goes against the understanding that God is not a respecter of persons as well as Pauls arguement in Romans 9-11 that clearly makes the point that : 'They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (END)

Doc: It's my opinion that the millennial destiny of Israel is never portrayed in scripture as that which will belong to the unbelieving children of the flesh. Just the opposite. If it came to the children of the flesh then God would be a respecter of persons. God's sovereign election is based on not anything in man but on God being able to put in those He chooses what they need to qualify in the inheritance of the saints in Christ. Therefore, if opponents of a millennial destiny for Israel believe it cannot be because it would exalting a nation of unvelievers then they could not be more wrong and are assuming a colossial error that pre-mill believers have never advocated. Besides hearing that if Israel is given a place of headship during a millennium that it would spoil the one new man in Christ, that's something that baffles me a bit also. In spite of clear teaching to the contrary there seems to be the opinion out there that pre-mill believers advocate that even the unbelieving children of the flesh will be included in the promises of Israel's restoration after Christ returns at His second advent. Nope!

I also asked,

Part of my question and thoughts are, have Gentiles forgotten that when they became believers in Christ and part of the commonwealth of Israel (true Israel within Israel) that they were then participating in promises and covenants made to the Jewish commonwealth? (END)

Youu replied,

Physical Israel's role as the commonwealth was done away with.

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

We have a 'better covenant, (an everlasting covenant) which was established upon better promises.' (END)

If Christ returns to the physical nation of Israel what will it say to the notion that He has forever cast off a physical Israel since the place of His return will be in a physical location? If those in the nation Christ returns to will become Christian with God's Spirit within them then would they not be partaking of the everlasting covenant and if so how would they be spoiling the one new man which is entirely made up of believers by simply living in a specified land?

If there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ why does Paul continue to speak of a covenant made with the natural branches?

I've probably over loaded you a bit but I thought it might work if I answered four of your replies in one post instead if four. If it doesn't work I'll learn from it.

Thanks for your answers and the time you took. No rush. I'll try to answer some of the other folks in the morning.

\t\t

P

proudpapa Oct 29, 2015

Hi Docs,

We agree : that there is 1 true Israel of God (made up of both Jew and Gentile)

We agree that there is 1 new man (made up of both Jew and Gentile)

We disagree : In that you seem to believe that in this new man there will be a headship order and that this headship order is based on race.

I believe that flesh and blood are done away with in the new man and so would be race, If there is a hierarchy system within the new man (I am not sure if there is)
It would appear from my reading of Scripture that positions or rewards would be according to each individuals own labour in this life and not according to their race.

we disagree : In that you seem to believe that Jesus will touch down in Jeruselum and the Jewish people in Israel will see Him and than turn to their Messiah.

I believe that there has been and will continue to be a remnant of Jewish people turning to Christ untill the 'Day of the Lord' (A Global Event) at which time : " the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

Am I misunderstanding your position ?

R

rookie Oct 29, 2015

For those who argue against the natural branch, against the nation of Israel, has God's covenant to Israel, spoken of in the following verses, "come to pass"?

Zec 14:16
And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:17
And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.

Zec 14:18
If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:19
This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zec 14:20
In that day "HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the LORD’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

Zec 14:21
Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the LORD of hosts.fn Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

sermonindex Oct 29, 2015

Rookie,

A few notes on the interpretation of Zechariah 14
A study of Tabernacles would be incomplete without considering the leading prophecy in this genre. Zechariah 13 deals with the death of God’s Shepherd ”“ at which time the sheep will be scattered (Zech. 13:7). At that same time ”“ the scattering of the sheep and the subsequent events of Zechariah’s prophecy cannot be separated by an honest interpretation ”“ God’s judgment would come on Israel and two thirds of the land would perish. But the remnant would be purified as in the fire (Zech. 13:8-9). These events would culminate in the destruction of Jerusalem when the nations came to battle against it (Zech. 14:1-2), ‘I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it.’

This was clearly fulfilled in the siege of Titus in AD70 which commenced at the time of Passover, when the whole land had gathered in the city for that feast. Rome, as an empire, was comprised of ‘all the nations’. Josephus records in his history of these events that garrisons from the many diverse countries under Roman control, participated in the siege.

An apparent difficulty arises at this point in Zechariah’s prophecy, over the verse: ‘On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. You will flee by my mountain valley…’. This is however prophetic imagery for that very decisive way of escape that God had made for the faithful remnant to avoid His judgment of that time.18 That Way was clearly through the atoning blood of Jesus and, for those who believed in him, in Jesus’ forewarning: ‘let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written’ (Luke 21:21-22). The believers’ escape at the onset of the Roman siege was, incidentally, over the Mount of Olives to trans-Jordan in the east.

The enduring light of God would dawn upon the nations and ‘that Day’ would last indefinately for the duration of the gospel age, i.e. ‘when night comes it will still be day’ (Zech. 14:6-7). During this time living waters would flow from Jerusalem (verse 8) ”“ being explained as the Holy Spirit, in both the New Testament and the Talmud ”“ and the knowledge of God would spread through the whole earth (verse 9). Jesus is both the light (John 8:12) and the source of the water (John 7:38 ). Also at this time, the eternal city would be established, the Jerusalem that is above, seen by Zechariah in chapter 2 and spoken of in Hebrews 11 and Revelation 21. Jerusalem would henceforth be secure (verses 10-11).

The remnant of Israel that escaped judgment and were purified (Zech.13:9) would conquer the nations and bring them under God’s judgment. For, ‘whoever does not believe, stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son’ (John 3:18). Those who harden their hearts toward the Son are earmarked for God’s wrath which will be poured out at the end of the age.

By the same gospel, however, a remnant of the nations is saved, and it is this remnant that is envisaged in the concluding verses of Zechariah:

‘Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles’(Zech. 14:16-19).

Faithful believers celebrate Tabernacles by understanding that we are ‘as strangers on this earth’ (Heb. 11:9; 1 Pet. 1:17). ‘People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country ”“ a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them’ (Heb. 11 14-16). We continue to celebrate the ingathering of the harvest while God’s ‘appointed time’ ”“ the Day of Salvation ”“ endures: ‘As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work’ (John 9:4).

The rain, like the streams of water, represents the Holy Spirit. Wherever God is served the Spirit will bring conviction of sin and fruit for His Kingdom. Those who do not submit to King Messiah will not receive this rain and will perish in everlasting destruction. ‘For if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ’ (Rom. 8:9).

Conclusion
God’s pre-determined plan for redemption occurs by way of a linear progression ”“ it has a definite beginning in the Passover and a definite end as envisioned in Tabernacles in the ingathering of the nations and the dispersed of Israel into a remnant of Judah. The prophets used the allegories of Israel’s feasts and history to speak of eternal realities which at that time were beyond their sight and comprehension. Since Israel’s feasts and history were given as ‘signs’ and ‘indications’ that foreshadowed an ultimate reality, a future (or present) re-enactment of those types and shadows cannot thus constitute their fulfilment! Nor can participation in the events serving as a ‘sign’ accomplish what it was pointing to.

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A failure to see, for example, the gospel as Israel’s means of conquest, those being saved as the ‘ingathered’ harvest and the pilgrim lifestyle of believers as their prophetic participation in the Feast of Tabernacles, leads to ‘idle notions’ and the tragic seduction of Christians. Many Christians are waving flags in Jerusalem and concerning themselves with political intrigue and events in Iran and the Middle East rather than fighting the true battle and contributing to the true fulfilment of God’s plan. Our ‘unspiritual minds’ have puffed us up and we fix our eyes once more on what is seen and passing away, rather than on what is unseen and eternal (2 Cor. 4:18).
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Jesus will not return to fight military campaigns on behalf of an ethnic Israel against its flesh and blood enemies. The battle is now, and its object is the lies that war against the truth of God’s ultimate revelation which is ‘the fulfilment of all things’ in Messiah, the way to salvation.

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Jesus ‘appeared once for all, at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself’ (Heb. 9:26). There is no further age after ‘the end of the ages’, and Jesus need not appear once again for a particular people when he has already appeared ‘once for all’.

The prescribed reading during Tabernacles included Ezekiel’s prophecies on Gog and Magog. The gospel age is ending with one final, concerted, all encompassing onslaught against those who bear witness to God’s eternal truth. This will be quashed by the Lord’s appearing from heaven. (See Peter Cohen’s article on The Millennium part 3 ”“ Gog and Magog, which deals more fully with this topic.)

Tabernacles was immediately followed by ‘the eighth day’ also known in Hebrew asatzeret (which curtly means a ‘terminus‘ or ‘abrupt end’). On this day all the pilgrims abandoned their ‘shacks’ and returned to their permanent homes. Paul says that ‘if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands’ (2 Cor. 5:1). The eighth day in Scripture is the day of the resurrection. On this day our Lord rose, and and on this day all those who became sojourners in this world through faith in Him, will be instantly translated into the presence of our Lord, and inherit the new heaven and new earth. ‘This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you’ (2 Thes. 1:7-10).

Let us then continue to gather-in while it is Day.

Read the entire article in context:
The Feast of Tabernacles ”“ it’s origins and prophetic significance
http://www.messianicgoodnews.org/the-feast-of-tabernacles-its-origins-and-prophetic-significance/

P

proudpapa Oct 29, 2015

rookie it is actually this portion of Scripture being taught to me from the modern perspective that caused me to seriously start doubting the modern eschatology understandings.

Here is John Wesely on Zec 14
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=wes&b=38&c=14

Basically the same as Matthew Henry
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=38&c=14

The view that was held before the 19th century seems much more sober to me.

add:
You run into alot of problems trying to interpret this portion of Scripture literally and applying to the millennium

D

docs Oct 30, 2015

Yo proudpapa,

Thanks for all of your comments and the time you took to form and make your replies. I read a article titled "Why the Jew" (R. Kelly) and it helped frame some of the thoughts on the subject. Because I thought the article framed the subject well I went through and broke it down sort of point by point and added a few comments of my own and of course more could be added. I offer it as food for thought and it a summary of sorts of how I believe on the subject. Election and why and how it will be worked out is part and parcel of the controversy I believe. I'm still looking for answers as to why people believe any coming exaltation of Israel as a servant nation that will wash the feet of the nations would be spoiling the one new man in Christ. But I already said that. Comments without rancor and strife are welcome.

1) The overriding question

From the first, God's eternal purpose in grace was mediated through Abraham's elect line, but WHY?

2) Foundational principles of mediated grace

In order to dethrone pride, God elects to place the blessing in a despised and disregarded place into which one must 'stoop' to enter.

God hides His secret from pride by mediating the revelation of His salvation through something or someone that is disallowed or despised (I Cor 1:27).

Something high must come down for grace to abound.

Because the truth of election is essentially and ultimately humbling, it is the death sentence to everything that is prideful, lofty and self-assured.

God hides His secrets and mysteries from autonomous self-reliance, even in the plain hearing of it.

3) Questions with relevant bearing on God's choice of Jacob

Why should natural descent count for anything?

Since we know that "in the flesh is nothing good,” why distinguish ethnicity in the first place?

Why single out a 'distinct' people as the locus and channel of divine blessing, if indeed priestly character is all that counts?

Now that faith has come, why continue to distinguish between Jew and Gentile, and between Israel and the Church?

Since the everlasting covenant is fulfilled in Christ, so that "in Him” there is neither Jew nor Greek, why does Paul continue to speak of a covenant "with them” (the 'natural branches') that is unfulfilled until the Redeemer's return (Isa 59:19-21; Rom 11:26-27).

Why isn't faith and priestly character sufficient by itself to mediate blessing to the world? Why should this require embodiment in a specific race of people?

If "all that counts is a new creation” (Gal 6:15), then why is it necessary that the life of this new creation be personified and exhibited through Jews as Jews ("the natural branches”), as a distinct nation ALL holy in their land as long as the earth shall last? (Isa 4:3; 45:17; 54:13; 59:21; 60:21; 66:21)

4) What is God saying in all of this?

God's choice and election of the Jew and Israel was done for the sake of an ultimate demonstration in history of God's sovereign right to choose whom He will minus any works on the part of the elect.

God intends that the entire world be confronted over the question of His sovereign choice of Jacob.

Because God's pre-temporal decision to choose Jacob was and is not based on works (Rom 9:11-23), it exposes a latent resentment and envy in the natural heart that is disinclined to agree with the righteousness of God's choice, which is ultimately the question of His rule.

The truth and reality of divine election stumbles as nothing else the lofty, self-assured confidence in the flesh that every man carries within his own natural heart and thoughts. Nothing else so profoundly offends and stumbles the natural heart.

Paul explains that the election of Jacob is necessary so "that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth” (Rom 9:11).

All is to underscore the great maxim of Romans 9:16, "so then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.”

The entire drama of redemption, its ends and ultimate goal, depends on the initial establishment and preservation of an essential ethnic distinction between Jew and Gentile. To lose this essential distinction is to lose the point. It is also to lose the great landmarks of divine instruction.

Through Israel, God will be known to all nations as the God who chooses, and that His favor is not based on anything He 'finds' in man, but on what He has determined to "put within” (create, birth, quicken) those whom He foreknew (Jer 31:33; 32:40; Ezek 36:26-27; Rom 8:29-30)

5) Israel's coming restoration and exaltation

Was the election of Jacob based on divine foresight of the change in His character, or will God's election assure that change?

It is the election that assures the change.

Israels present hopeless condition therefore exists for the glory of God who is well able to change them and graft them in again. God's election of them assures it.

6)Bottom lines

The 'blood of the everlasting covenant' (Heb 13:20), which is the heart of the gospel, is inseparable from the literal provisions of the 'everlasting covenant' as it pertains to both the people and the land of Israel (I Chron 16:17; Ps 105:10-11; Ezek 37:25-26), assuring the salvation of both (Lev 26:42; Isa 62:4; Mic 4:1-8; Acts 1:6; 3:18-21; Rom 11:25-29).

Therefore, the everlasting covenant is inseparable from the everlasting gospel, as all are comprehended within the mystery of Christ's two fold appearance to Israel.

No one gets into the kingdom of God solely because of natural ethnicity. All, Jew and Gentile, must be born again through faith and the inward regeneration of the Spirit as they are washed clean from their sins by the atoning blood of Christ.

To move into their future millennial destiny Israel will have to come the way of the cross as all other Christians have. God's election of them assures He will put in them the everlasting righteousness He requires which will be none other than the righteousness of Christ Himself.

God can't be charged with injustice because of allowing Israel's present return to the land because there is no injustice or unrighteousness with God.

Last Days events will press the question of the 'everlasting covenant.' A literal reading of the great volume of the Hebraic prophetic scripture describing world conditions leading up to the Day of the Lord shows the age will not end before all nations are in agitation over the question of the land of Israel, and the city of Jerusalem, which is also the question of the everlasting covenant (I Chron 16:17-18, Isa 24:5).

God intends that the entire world be confronted over His sovereign choice of Jacob.

7) Common objections to Israel's millennial exaltation

This can't happen because there is now no Jew or Gentile in Christ.

A millennial exaltation of Christ would mar and spoil the one new man in Christ in which no member is to be given a unfair advantage over other members.

This would be re-establishing a wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

God can't promote and exalt one member of the body of Christ over other members.

God is not a respecter of persons.

In Christ, God can't treat one nation differently than other nations.

God is no longer interested in land and physical borders. His kingdom is within.

God can't and won't confine His blessings to one tiny strip of land in the Middle East. In Christ we are presently heirs of the entire world (Rom 4:13)

J

JFW Oct 30, 2015

12:And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14:And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

So while this may seem insignificant I believe it addresses the core of this issue being discussed on these dif threads:
The question I pose is; what language are the names written in that adorn the gates and foundations of heaven itself?
The answer to this speaks volumes, albeit quietly, of the answer so many seem to debating regarding ethnic Israel and their role in the grand plan of God's work with the natural and wild olive branches.

O

Oracio Oct 30, 2015

12:And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
14:And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
So while this may seem insignificant I believe it addresses the core of this issue being discussed on these dif threads:
The question I pose is; what language are the names written in that adorn the gates and foundations of heaven itself?
The answer to this speaks volumes, albeit quietly, of the answer so many seem to debating regarding ethnic Israel and their role in the grand plan of God's work with the natural and wild olive branches.

For many years I believed that Revelation 21 was referring to a literal physical heavenly city and that all the numeric measurements mentioned there were to be understood literally. But then it dawned at me as I read that passage carefully that it was clearly a symbolic depiction of the Church, the Lamb's wife. If you're not familiar with this interpretation of it I humbly challenge you to consider verses 9-13 and to see if you can spot why I hold to this view on it:

"9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, "Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife." 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west."

The rest of the chapter does not specifically mention the Lamb's wife (neither does chapter 22) but continues to describe the holy city. So the question is, why would the angel tell John that he was about to show him the Lamb's wife only to then go on to show him a literal city instead? Where is the revelation of the Lamb's wife which the angel says he's about to show John? It has to be the holy city itself with all of its descriptions including all the numeric measurements.

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

Because the Lamb's wife IS the Holy City.

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God" (Rev 21:10)

The "holy city, the New Jerusalem” (21:2), the "Jerusalem above” (Gal. 4:26), the "beloved city” (20:9), "the city whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10), "the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22) is the perfected community of God’s people. We have been getting glimpses of this "city" throughout the book of Revelation (3:12; 11:2). This city is not a geographical location, and neither is it an institutional or ecclesiastical structure. The LIFE of this city is the presence of God by His Son Jesus Christ.

J

JFW Oct 30, 2015

Brothers Oracio and Julius,
Forgive me as I must be misunderstanding what you brothers are saying in its relevance to the question of the language in which these names are written is in- could you help me in understanding this?
I see what you are saying about the city being the bride/church as it were, tho not the city itself but the inhabitants that walk in the light of it- per verse 24,25.... So are you brothers suggesting that the "names" are a figurative reference? If so for what? If not then what language will they be written in?

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

JFW,

Names in v24, 25?

What names? My apologies if I am being dense.

O

Oracio Oct 30, 2015

JFW, I believe the names of the twelve tribes of Israel and of the twelve Apostles are in reference to all Old and New Testament saints, the entirety of the redeemed people of God. In other words its symbolic.

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

Oh, the names in chapter 19? Good point, Oracio.

Let me add something else.

The comprehensive period of a "thousand years" may have begun at Christ's victorious defeat of Satan on the cross. In historical terms, we may be in this "comprehensive" time, now.

John "saw thrones" (20:4) in heaven with God's people, "seated in the heavenlies" (Eph. 2:6). "Judgment was given to them" (20:4), just as Jesus indicated that His followers would "sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Matt. 19:28; Luke 22:29), and Paul wrote that "the saints will judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).

"Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?" (Co 6:1-5)

In Revelation 20.4, Christians are represented as not worshipping the beast or his image and not receiving the mark upon their forehead or their hands. These Christians have not turned to idolatrous religion and received its stamp upon their identity and character. These Christians are also represented as "come to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years" and just as Jesus "was dead, and has come to life", Christians have come to life, passing "out of death unto life" (1 John 3:14). By so doing, they reign in life through Jesus Christ (Rom 5:17,21). To "reign with Christ" is to be actively functioning and participating in the "Kingdom of His dear Son", (Col 1:13).

We do not serve a militaristic Messiah who would be a human king in terms of a nationalism and this should not be transferred over to mean the Kingdom reign of Christ during the "thousand year" period. Jesus specifically stated, "My Kingdom is not of this world".

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

Question: "What is the purpose of the thousand-year reign of Christ?"

Answer: The Millennium (also known as the Millennial Kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the Tribulation and before all the people of the world are sent to either heaven or hell. Jesus will reign as king over Israel as well as all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6”“9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1”“3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2”“3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill promises God made to the world that cannot be fulfilled while Satan is free and humans have political authority. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. All of these will be fulfilled during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.

The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18”“20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21”“24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7”“9)””into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land for eternity (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant””one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His step-father (Matthew 1:1”“17) and His mother (Luke 3:23”“38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1”“17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ eternal reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).

The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant””Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God””has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, "But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: "You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20”“21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah (Romans 9””11). They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.

Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 100). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11”“14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18”“23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6”“9; 32:13”“15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.

The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.

J

JFW Oct 30, 2015

Brother Oracio,
Well yes of course the OT (tribes) NT (apostles) but in vs 24,25 it speaks of the saved of the nations walking in it (light of) and the gates never being closed,... Are you saying this is figurative as well?
I only ask because there is allot of semantical detail in the depiction and says that the saved will walk in it,...this doesn't sound so figurative to me.

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

JFW, consider how "walk" is used here:

"as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should WALK IN NEWNESS OF LIFE, ...be also in the likeness of his resurrection...alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:4,5,11);

Paul indicates that "we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, 'I will dwell in them, AND WALK IN THEM; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.'" (II Cor. 6:16).

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The "city of God", the Church "the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory". (Isa 60:19)

"the Lamb is the light thereof", (21:23)

"In him was life; and the life was THE LIGHT OF MEN." (John 1:4)

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9)
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Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

"And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising." (Isa 60:3)

Isaiah foresaw that in the New Jerusalem, "Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising”. It is amazing to contemplate how these OT scriptures must have burst with so much meaning in the hearts of the Apostles.

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Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there

Jesus Christ is the "way” (John 14:6), and there is open access His "holy city” by His death for all men. "Its gates shall not be shut” (21:25), just as Isaiah explained that "Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night” (Isa. 60:11).

Isa 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

Jerusalem above is a very safe place to inhabit. No security measures or walls are necessary, for "Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited”.
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

God will not allow anything unclean or abominable or false. To be a resident in the city you must be spiritually united with Christ. The Holy Spirit will not tolerate anything that is contrary to the character of Christ.

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

O

Oracio Oct 30, 2015

JFW, I agree with Julius' last post. Again, I personally don't believe we can reasonably get around the Lamb's wife, the spiritual Jerusalem being depicted there in symbolic language.

J

JFW Oct 30, 2015

Brother Julius,
Yeah bro I'm tracking with you on the references to us being the temple/church and the different uses (spiritual/physical) of the terms "walk" etc... But I (and forgive me for not being clearer) see that it's not an either or scenario but both a figurative and literal in that while we are "the church/bride" there is also a literal aspect to this city whose foundation is God and I'm suggestion (for consideration) that the culture of this heavenly city is in fact Hebrew,..or better put the Hebrew culture IS the Heavenly culture given to Israel by God and not of their own making. Which is why in my view the names would be written in Hebrew which (for me) gives credence to "ethnic" Israel's role in the redemptive process.

I understand that our different views help to shape our scriptural interpretations and visa/versa and so when I read through the scriptures this parallel/contrast is very apparent to my mind. All the while I understand for others with a different view that would not be the case but in fact the opposite.

sermonindex Oct 30, 2015

JFW, thanks for explaining your viewpoint. I definitely respect it and think all viewpoints are important to consider. There are so many things I don't know about all of this and I am searching just like you. I do know that everything must be submitted to Christ and by this I mean that nothing can become more important that Him. That is why I always say that our various views of scripture must always maintain a Christocentric approach.

As far as Revelation, I do see a large part of it as a panoramic, full color, 360 degree movie of so many things and not necessarily a chronological timeline that we are all very fond of making. Men want a very organized timeline and I don't think that is what God was giving John. There are so many things in Revelation that came into spiritual reality after the death and resurrection of Christ and of course there are still several things awaiting, too.

John knew the OT scriptures and he must have been an artistic type of person or maybe he had to write Revelation in such a way that it would be concealed from those without. I don't know. But it seems that so much of it is explainable (as scripture explains scripture) and not Black Hawk Helicopters and Tanks as we have seen in some interpretations.

For instance:

Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

What could this refer to?

Could it coincide with Zechariah 14:11?
Zec 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

And also we know that a curse (destruction) came to the fall of man. Well, through and in Christ there is no longer any curse present. We don't have to get to heaven for that. Christ took the curse for us on the tree of crucifixion (Gal 3:13).

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

And we don't have to incur any curses for disobedience (Deut 27,28) but are now able to participate in the "blessings that are ours in Christ Jesus".

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

As you can see, Rev 22:3 is happening right now.

Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Referring to Rev 22:4 - We see God now. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God". (Matt 5:8) Jesus said, "If you have seen me ye have seen the Father". There is a sense that we can see God as Christians because "God hath shone in our hearts"

2Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

We see Christ in our brothers and sisters, yet we still look forward to "see him as he is" (1 John 3:2) "face to face" (1 Cor 13:12).

But in the meantime, we "endure, as seeing him who is invisible" (Heb 11:27)

Brother, I love you and all the brothers and sisters here on SI, and realize we are all learning. I don't want to be deceived and you don't so we are absolutely correct in testing the spirits until we are satisfied. Jesus is communicating to us in no uncertain terms that an incredible deception and delusion is coming to the Church. I don't think that has really ever hit me like it is hitting me, today. I am hoping to gain new light all the time (and I do) searching with brothers and sisters on SI. This is absolutely the best place I know of on the net. You guys are all awesome.
http://littleguyintheeye.com/biblical-studies/end-times/zionism/

J

JFW Oct 30, 2015

Amen to that dear brother!
Indeed it is truly fascinating to witness the Lord work, knitting the body of believers together wether Jew or Gentile. Honestly I love that on our best day we can't figure it all out but must wait for it to be unveiled,... mos def keeps it interesting and engaging as He continues to reveal Himself in new ways.
And as for SI,.. it truly is a unique blessing in these days of darkness. It's no small thing that the Lord has done in and thru this ministry of brother Greg.