Giving to Ministries: Tithing is not New Testament & Direct Debit Ministrys

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deltadom Nov 27, 2015

Tithing is not in the new testament

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Mark 12
41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

Luke 21
21 And he looked up, and saw the rich men casting their gifts into the treasury.

2 And he saw also a certain poor widow casting in thither two mites.

3 And he said, Of a truth I say unto you, that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all:

4 For all these have of their abundance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had.

5 And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,

Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

In some churches the church offering is an event and a heavy placement is placed on tithing even thou it is not a new testament requirement.

To me most churches follow the Titus 1:11 model

Titus 1:11King James Version (KJV)

11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

They teach for Shameful Gain.

To make the statement I have nothing wrong with giving to the church. What I find is hard when churches or ministries fix you to say direct debit or donors to there ministry.

In some churches they have an offering box at the back believing by faith that God would provide for them.

In some perverse churches I have been in they ask for notes not coins, there are so many churches teaching for shameful gain.

Even among solid churches to keep say the church running giving is placed on the high altar to support the ministry.

I have nothing wrong with giving or trying to manipulate people. We need a certain amount of people to keep our ministry running, it does not think sometimes what state the church is in.

What if you are drastically poor and do not have the money to support say a monthly donor.

In some churches that have provided food banks for the poor but completely forget the actual poor in there own fellowships. They are do ministry but fleecing the flock to do ministry to the poor when there is the poor in there own actual church forgetting the brethren.

It is sometimes hard when you listen to supposedly bible teaching and week in week out please support my teaching with a monthly donations. This turns people of and listeners of.

As doing computing, the cost of running something like a pod-cast is relatively cheap maybe for the web domain and hosting space. To me if the person has to support say a family or children through his ministry it is right to pay for the ministry.

What if the person listening has barely enough to get by food wise.

Hudson Taylor, George Muller and other such great men of faith never actually asked for money, non of the early church practised tithing. They gave abundantly.

If you can provide me evidence otherwise I would gladly look into it.

Some ministries use finances as a use for a lack of prayer.

What breaks my heart is what you give you money to is important. To the minsries when you are funding there own private jet people, extravagent hotels like Joyce Meyer, Joseph Prince, Kenneth Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, Hillsong and loads of others

Then you have ministries where there books and DVD are vastly overpriced for what it is or where ministries such as Perry Noble, Stephen Furtick, Mark Driscoll who used ministry money to buy there way on to the New York Times Bestseller List.

My problem is with the sometimes the average ministry who has a slot with please become a partner with us at the end of there program, there is sometimes I wish I could but I do not have the finances at the time and am barely getting by.

P

proudpapa Nov 27, 2015

Some of my family started attending a small nondenomenational country church, I was very excited hoping they would hear good clear Gospel messages, But unfortuanitly the preacher started preaching manditory legalistic tithe.
Well that totally turned my family off.

sermonindex Nov 27, 2015

That's too bad, proudpapa. But, the system (religious) must be paid for (salaried hireling) and most preach about living by faith but would not dare do it. My wife's pastor is the only pastor I ever knew that lived by faith. With a wife and 5 kids, he never drew a salary. Only lived on what people freely purposed in their heart to give him. Sometimes, he had to water down the milk to make it go farther, did not live in a great house (rented) or drive a new car (pretty old), but his preaching was passionate and had a fire in it. The local police in town always called him when they needed someone to speak to a prisoner. My wife's pastor was an old german guy from Indiana and just overflowed with the love of God. I am so glad I got to know him. He married us.

The tithe / religious system has ruined almost every man of God that has been part of it.

I remember another pastor that Milton Green had minister to and also ministered in his church and I happened to be in this man's church the day he said this: "I have been in the ministry for 25 years, and when I first started I wanted nothing more than to preach the Gospel to the lost. But, after 25 years I have become nothing more than a CEO that spends most of my week deluged with administration and financial tasks."

He built a pretty big church in Edmund, OK, and was known as a great man of God, and I was shocked to hear this admission from the pulpit. He was pretty broken and depressed. The system broke him. He had a great house, cars, 401k and other retirement benefits, but was a very sad man that day. You could cut through the "disappointment" in his life it was so thick that morning. It was remarkable because you just don't see men admit to what he admitted to.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2015

I should add that my wife's pastor was always joyful, loving and kind. He was a picture of an Overcomer. And you never knew that he or his family lacked anything as he never spoke about it. I found out about the thinning of milk from one of his kids after they were grown up. Great kids, all married and working and they love the Lord.

He never wanted to purchase a building so met in homes or city hall (at the time it was free). Some people in the fellowship had their eye on the surrounding churches and wanted him to have programs like they had and build a church building but he would never do it. He was a man of prayer preached that preached a powerful, life giving word. My wife was privileged to grow up under his ministry. Some ladies in the fellowship were pestering him for years to build a church and when they realized he was never going to do that, they split with other members and built a church on a hill in the town which eventually went through a split and they all went their way. At the time of the church split, they persecuted Brother Gurnhardt, but he just loved them and would not let a root of bitterness sprout in his heart. Shorty after, (after 30 years) he left and went back to Indiana. His wife got a severe case of alzheimers and he cared for her until she died. Brother Gurnhardt, always the preacher, always the evangelist always the lover of souls, at 85 years old, spends his days at senior citizen homes and prisons. He just cannot sit around and not be ministering the Word of God to the lost and dying. This is a brother that always resisted the religious system taking a foothold in his heart.

He came from a Mennonite family, but got Spirit-filled and his life was never the same.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2015

I do agree with the original post that many ministries start off called of God and therefore people support it but overtime they lose their original calling or purpose but the money is still flowing in through donor lists, and mailing lists so it continues. I have seen some ministries that the Lord left many years ago running because it owned a building and had a few staff.

May God preserve para-church ministries that are fulfilling the eternal purpose of God that local churches in declension are not during this season in north america.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2015

its in the old testament, Abraham coming back, what did he give Melchizedek?...and why? or why do you think?

Melchizedek is a priest of God Most High, you don't see that Name attributed too much in just that Wording, do you?

and Abraham gave the tenth ...on his?....own free will!

so do likewise, and if you ever feel coerced flee from that place.

sermonindex Nov 28, 2015

Melchizedek gave from his spoils. It did not cost him anything and there is no indication he ever did it again.

Tithing is mentioned in the book of Hebrews because the writer is comparing the Melchizedek and the Levitical priesthood to show us how far superior a priest Jesus is.

1. There is no scriptural evidence that God told him to give a tithe and the scriptures say nothing of him giving a tithe for the rest of his life.

2. ON FAITH ALONE IS what God's original promise and eventual covenant with Abraham was based. Nothing to do with tithing.

3. NOWHERE in the scriptures is it mentioned that Abraham ever gave another tithe for the rest of his life.

4. God's fulfillment to Abraham did not include a condition of tithing. God made Abraham rich in fulfillment of his promise alone, without any kind of tithing or giving. In addition, tithing this one time did not make him rich as he was incredibly rich before his first and only tithe.

5. Christian's have said that Abraham's tithe to Melchizedek is God's pattern for Christians in the New Covenant. There is no where in Scripture where this is stated.

6. Abraham believed what God said and acted upon it. There were no works involved.

7. The tithe in the Old Testament is connected with the Temple and the Levitical priesthood. There are three (3) different tithes in the Old Testament and seven (7) different offerings.

8. Tithers argue that Jesus is both king and priest and is therefore due a tithe. Jesus is certainly worthy of a tithe and much more but He never asked for one while on earth and never gave any teaching that He wanted one after His resurrection. What He wants is all of our heart, soul, mind and strength. ALL OF US. If He has our whole heart, then He has everything else. His kingdom and priesthood are not based on the tithe. The tithe has no place in it. Everything about tithing is inferior to New Covenant life in Christ.

Three Different Tithes:
1. To the Levites for Their Maintenance. Numbers 18:21,24
2. For the Lord's Feasts and Sacrifices. Deuteronomy 14:22-26
3. Every Third Year a Tithe for the Poor. Deuteronomy 14:28,29

Seven Offerings:
1. Sin Offering
2. Trespass Offering
3. Peace Offering
4. Meal Offering
5. Drink Offering
6. Wave Offering
7. Heave Offering

THE BIGGEST QUESTION
The "elephant in the room" is this: Where is the transition teaching in the New Testament from the OT tithe and offerings to the New way of tithing and offering, so that New Testament believers would know how the tithe changed? Even during the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15, the transitional teaching of the new way to tithe is conspicuously missing. How did the Jewish Christians know how it changed and how in the world were the Gentile Christians taught about it? The transition teaching DOES NOT EXIST! The NT Tithe was made up by men!

Paul said that we should not give out of "compulsion" or "necessity" (compelled by men). Men compel taxes, and today's tithe is nothing more than a religious tax.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of NECESSITY: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

D

deltadom Nov 28, 2015

It is good rule to use the clearer passages to interpret the non clearer passages even thou the passages even thou it is not classed as diadatic (teaching) passage

Mark 12:41-44King James Version (KJV)

41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

The passage in Hebrew 7
7 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.

9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.

10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

If it use as an inference to say that tithing is for say a church context is just an inference.

When you have a clearer passage in say Mark why is it tithing is not scriptural.

2Co 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of NECESSITY: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

J

jujashan4 Dec 20, 2015

Julius thank you very much for sharing with us about that brother. Very encouraging!
Anyone reading this who feels they must give 10% should read the book of Galatians.
It's not at all a matter of giving or not giving.
It's a matter of Old Covenant law or New Covenant freedom/generosity.
Christ is the end of the law so there may be righteousness for all who believe.

L

Lysa Dec 20, 2015

I know I've told this story before but I was converted in a church that paid cash in 1980 ($200,000) to build a new church. They never put pressure on the people for a "building fund," we just pulled in one Sunday morning and saw the effects of a brand new building starting to be built!!

And the pastor told the story many times of his conversation with God when he was called to preach, (this is the best of my memory)...

Lord: When are you going to do what I've called you to do?

Bro Herman: At the church I grew up in, they kicked out the ones I thought they should keep and keep the ones I thought they should have kicked out. I don't know who to keep or who to kick out.

Lord: Don't ever kick anyone out. And do not keep a membership book, I'll keep it.

Bro H: Ok!

Lord: Anything else?

Bro Herman: The day I have to beg for money to keep the doors open, is the day I shut and lock them.

Lord: Agreed, now go!

God is good and this little country church never, ever had to beg for money!

God bless,
Lisa

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Man0fG0d Jan 2, 2016

Greetings, everybody. Grace to all of my brethren and sisters. Tithing is biblical.

Malachi 3:8-10 KJV
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. [10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Jesus told the pharisees this ye ought to have done(tithe) but not leave the other undone.

sermonindex Jan 2, 2016

Jesus was living under the law speaking to men under the law, so you are right, tithing is OT biblical, if that is what you meant.

But, if you are suggesting that the tithing spoken of in Malachi is NT biblical, then you must know that the tithe in the Old Testament was tied to the Temple and the Levitical Priests.

With this in mind, where is the transition teaching in the NT that educates the church on how the tithe has changed?

I do not see this transition teaching any where in the NT so how would anyone in the Early Church know what NT tithing was all about? The council at Jerusalem in Acts 15 would have been a perfect place to teach this to the Gentile church, but the NT is silent on it.

Looking at Malachi in context we must read Malachi 4:4.

Mal 4:4 - Remember ye the law of Moses my servant...with the statutes and judgments.

All through Malachi's message to Israel, he was imploring them to return to a pure practice of the Law. One part of his message was for the people to fulfill the laws of tithes and offerings.

The first thing we need to observe is this: The practice of paying tithes was an important part of the Law of Moses.

Do you think NT Christians are still under the LAW OF MOSES?

Tithing is mentioned 3 times in the NT and not one of these times is a SYSTEM of tithes being advocated by Jesus or the Apostles.

So, back to the missing "transition teaching" in the NT. There are 3 different tithes in the OT and 3 different ways in which they are to be carried out. The Pharisees knew what Jesus was talking about and Jesus knew they knew. Which of these 3 different tithes do NT believers follow and where is this teaching?

Here are the tithes to make it easier for you ManofGod.

Three Different Tithes:
1. To the Levites for Their Maintenance. Numbers 18:21,24
2. For the Lord's Feasts and Sacrifices. Deuteronomy 14:22-26
3. Every Third Year a Tithe for the Poor. Deuteronomy 14:28,29

There are also 7 different offerings.

So, how do the NT believers know that the 3 tithes and 7 offerings in the OT are now reduced to 10% of your money before taxes? (Some places, after taxes).

The two things that I notice is that the tithes of Deuteronomy 14:24-25 have nothing to do with money and the offerings of Malachi are the sacrifices which the NT has declared as ended.

Since this is a very, very big doctrine of Christendom, there must be some "transition teaching" for the NT Believers to understand now what the tithe is all about?

I love the Word and want to follow the Word. Please help me out.

Thank you, Man0fG0d.

sermonindex Jan 3, 2016

by proudpapa on 2015/11/27 17:20:26
Some of my family started attending a small nondenomenational country church, I was very excited hoping they would hear good clear Gospel messages, But unfortuanitly the preacher started preaching manditory legalistic tithe.
Well that totally turned my family off.

That certainly belies deeper legalism and a red flag tipping you off.

J

JB1968 Jan 3, 2016

The Bible does teach tithing (without a doubt). Many can give oodles to every ministry but their local church. That is sad. I don't give out of coercion, but out of love. God does "love a cheerful giver", not a stingy one.

sermonindex Jan 3, 2016

Let's be specific. We know the OT teaches tithing and it is tied to the The law of Moses, maintenance of the temple and the Levitical priesthood.

The NT does not teach tithing. There is no longer a physical temple, Levitical priesthood or law of Moses.

Where is the NT transition teaching educating the Church on how tithing has changed to 10% of their income which is not the teaching of tithing in the Bible?

For those of you who know where this major doctrine comes from, can you enlighten the rest of us?