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Theology

Have we been Hellenized?

D
docs Dec 9, 2015

This was written by a Jewish Messianic believer. I'm not pushing Jewish Messianic believers per say. It could have just as well been written by a Gentile believer but it has enough meat in it that I thought I would offer it for what it's worth. Comments welcome if you are inclined.

(BEGIN)
To give a short answer which I will then elaborate on, both the Greeks and rabbinic Jews, for all of the intellectual brilliance usually attributed to them, simply got it wrong. They put artificial limitations on what cannot be limited, because the implications of dealing with a God that could not be placed neatly into a little theological box was not appealing to either group.

First of all, to the Greeks. It has been said that the God of the Bible could not adequately be understood before the Hebrew ethos had been exposed to Greek philosophy. Put in theological terms, this idea is horse manure. If you look at the theological concepts that the Greeks managed to develop, there is something lacking in all of them. Understand that there are two basic ways that God’s relation to the cosmos are explained. Immanence maintains that God is manifested exclusively in the material world, while transcendence sees the Divine as being outside the material world. The Greeks appear to have originally adopted immanence to explain the relation of their Gods to man, but then they did nothing useful with it.

The core view of Greek thought concerning mankind was extremely pessimistic, because its view of the physical world was not congenial. Man was not created by the gods as a partner and friend, but as an afterthought. The Gods did not come to man offering guidance and friendship, but used man as a plaything. In the Greek ethos, serving one of the gods usually caused you nothing but trouble, because one of the other gods would take offense at your devotion to their rival and make your life miserable. The gods did not manifest themselves in the world to be man’s teacher. Prometheus tried, and look what happened to him. When the Greek gods appeared in the world, they acted like college kids on spring break. There was nothing noble about them, and other than their power there was little to respect about them.

The limitations in the Greek mythos became apparent when Greek philosophers began to examine the world around them. The Neo-Platonists of the 5th and 4th centuries BCE stated that if the gods behaved immorally, they were not gods at all. In its attempt to define a rational explanation of God’s relation to man, Neoplatonism adopted the transcendental view of God, and then proceeded to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Having decided that the immanent concept was unsatisfactory, the Neoplatonists swung in the other direction and adopted the transcendent view, maintaining that God was wholly independent of the material universe and beyond all physical laws. The Neoplatonists saw matter as having proceeded from the Monad, the One, a creative principle existing beyond the cosmos created by it. The One embodies the dunamis, the power to exist. From the One a series of emanations caused other levels of being to exist. The first emanation was an eternal, perfect essence, the nous, the Divine intellect, an image of God often called the Demiurge. This divine intellect was the first principle, the foundation of existence. From the divine intellect emanated what has often been called the World-Soul, the psuche, capable of acting upon its own thought and creating the cosmos, the physical world. The physical world was thus the product of a series of emanations constantly moving away from the ultimate reality of the One.

The problem was that this created an extremely negative view toward physical reality. If the ultimate reality was the One, and the One was unreachable by the physical world, then physicality was an obstacle that had to be overcome to reach ultimate reality, instead of something to be embraced as the gift of a loving Creator. So, the Neoplatonists created a system in which the physical world was essentially evil, but what does that have to do with us today?

Unfortunately for us who adhere to the Judeo-Christian ethos, Christianity and to some extent Judaism were bodily taken over by Neoplatonism between the time of Yeshua and Emperor Constantine. Within the Christian movement there developed alongside of orthodox teaching the Gnostic heresy. The Gnostics, while claiming to be believers, also adhered to Neoplatonic teachings. Therefore, they saw the God of Scripture as the Demiurge, not ultimate reality. In order to reach beyond the God of Israel to that ultimate reality, a special knowledge or gnosis was necessary. This knowledge was unavailable to normative Christians, and was provided only to those "worthy” of receiving it. Even though Gnosticism was condemned as a heresy by the Church, the Church adopted it by the back door by making Neoplatonism and Aristotle the basis of Christian theology. Plato and Aristotle were referred to much more frequently than Scripture. While the Church taught the reality of the Incarnation and thus admitted to the truth of immanence, that God could and did become man, it much more frequently taught God’s transcendence, that He was essentially unknowable except through the teachings of the Church, which had a special knowledge of God. Adherence to Church teachings, and not a personal relationship with God, became the basis of knowing God and obtaining salvation.

So the Gentiles ended up with a thoroughly confusing idea of God’s relation to man. God was present in His creation, yet he could really be approached only through the authority of the Church and was thus essentially unknowable by the average believer. But what about Judaism? How did rabbinical Judaism make such a horrible mistake in the matter of the Incarnation?
Judaism stands in a unique position in the discussion of God’s relation to the physical world. Is the God of Genesis immanent? Yes. Is the God of Genesis transcendant? Yes. This apparent inconsistency is answered by an intermediary theological system called panentheism, which states that God is both within and beyond the universe, in it, but not of it, at the same time filling it and surpassing it. A classic view of Judaism is that God can be compared to the oceans, while creation is a sea-cave between sea and land. The sea-cave is completely filled by the ocean, but the substance of the ocean is not diminished by doing so. The universe does not so much contain God as that God contains the universe.

Genesis chapters 1 through 3 shows God walking with man in a form that man could perceive and speak with face to face. Even after man broke fellowship with God to go his own way, God continued to reveal Himself to man. In the famous theophany of Genesis 18, God in human form ate with Avraham and spoke with him face to face. When Yaakov wrestled with the man at the brook Yabbok, he called the place Peniel, "the face of God”. It states in Torah that Moshe spoke face to face with God. So Israel’s history shows God as being physically present with them.

From the history of God revealing Himself in Torah, we find in the prophets speaking of God’s revelation of Himself in even more intimate ways. Isaiah 7: 14 reveals a special child being born named Immanuel, "with us God”. While it can be maintained, although in my opinion not without some degree of intellectual dishonesty, that the presence of God spoken of is symbolic or metaphorical, the next reference in Isaiah removes all doubt. Isaiah 9: 6 states that a child will be born for us, and that one of his titles will be mighty God. There is no metaphorical meaning in this. Pagan societies had no problem allowing for the mingling of gods with men, but the absolute monotheism of Israel cancelled out such a conclusion. This was speaking of a theophany, but a theophany with a difference. Instead of God taking the appearance of a man, God Himself would become a man. The consequences of such an act are mind-boggling. God becoming a man meant that God was becoming His own mediator between Himself and man.

Given the fact that the Tanach makes it abundantly clear that there will be a Messiah that will intercede for mankind (see Isaiah 53), you would think that the Hebrews would have had no problem with dealing with the concept of Immanuel. But history intervened, and the persecutions of the Greek Seleucid kings, especially that of Antiochus Epiphanes, occurred. The Jewish people have a peculiar habit of falling away from God in prosperity and returning to Him in calamity. The Assyrian and Babylonian deportations seemed to cure them of overt idolatry. The persecution of the Greeks, which is still commemorated today in the festival of Hanukkah, taught the Jewish people an unfortunate lesson. God raised up the Maccabees to fight on behalf of the Covenant, and against all odds the ragtag army of Yehudah Maccabee defeated the Greeks. But as Roman conquerors succeeded Greek conquerors, the longing for another conquering hero that would defeat the pagans and restore the glory of Israel took root in the hearts and minds of the great majority of Jews. This longing gradually became entwined with the Messianic longing and the Messiah envisioned at the time of Yeshua bore more resemblance to Caesar than to the suffering Servant.

When Yeshua entered the world, the Jewish people were thus, because of the mindset that they had developed over the preceding two centuries, psychologically unable as a whole to accept Him. He just did not answer what they felt was their need, that of national deliverance. The deliverance that Yeshua brought, that of the kingdom of God within the heart of anyone who accepted Him, was never really understood at the time. If more Jewish people had looked to the Tanach they would have better understood, but outside of meticulous study of the Torah the remainder of Tanach seems to have been much neglected, especially the prophetic writings where most Messianic prophecies were found. The average Jew saw himself as someone justified before God by the simple fact of having been born an Israelite, and the entrance ticket to that exalted status was a minute observance of Torah as taught and elaborated upon by the rabbis. To most Jews of the time, this was all that was necessary. The words of the Prophets crying out for individual repentance before God were ignored in favor of a prideful observance of Torah and a corresponding contempt of the goyim.

In the disasters that fell hard and fast upon the Jewish people following the crucifixion of Yeshua, false messiahs came and went and the influence of the Zealots grew dramatically. In opposition to the Herods and the Roman procurators that ruled the land the Romans called Palestina, the Zealots held that no human should rule over Israel. The only king of Israel should be the God of Avraham, of Yitschak and of Yaakov. When the Romans, who took exception to this idea, destroyed the Temple of God along with the rest of Yerushalem, the Jews were cut off from their spiritual moorings and should probably have ceased to exist as a people.

The fact that the Jews did not go away was due primarily to a rabbi named been Zakkai, who basically created present day rabbinic Judaism out of the ruins of the Temple. He created a Judaism that could exist without a Temple, that could be practiced anywhere a Jew found himself. The Judaism of ben Zakkai and his successors, the Tannaim, was a rational Judaism that consisted of practices performed in obedience to Torah. In order to explain how to apply the timeless concepts of Torah to the present day, over the next few centuries the work known as the Talmud was assembled. The mystical and prophetic element that had existed in Judaism vanished, not to reappear in the Kabala until many centuries had passed. Illustrative of this departure is the famous maxim of ben Zakkai that if one was planting a tree and heard that the Messiah had come, that the planting of the tree should be completed before the Messiah was sought.

Because of the intense persecutions of the past two millennia and the turning away of the majority of Jews from the prophetic elements of their religion, it became practically impossible for the Jewish people to conceive of Yeshua as either Immanuel, God among men in the flesh, and as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53. The Gentile Church turned away to the elements of Gnosticism hidden within the Christian religion, to the seeking of "private revelation” that often bore little resemblance to the truths revealed in Scripture. Much confusion has attended the understanding of the essential nature of God as a resultb of these events. But a diligent search of Scripture shows clearly that God is in the business of shattering the labels we attach to Him in any case, and that perhaps in the end the safest thing is to say what the Tannaim have always said, His name shows clearly what He is, Yehovah, "God is”.

Shalom.

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

Very interesting, David. Especially the part about the Jews and why an Immanuel (God with us) just did not register with them as a nation. Of course many have come to Him through the centuries.

Has anything changed? If He came back now would things be different and why?

P
proudpapa Dec 10, 2015

RE:/// The Gentile Church turned away to the elements of Gnosticism hidden within the Christian religion, to the seeking of "private revelation” that often bore little resemblance to the truths revealed in Scripture. Much confusion has attended the understanding of the essential nature of God as a resultb of these events.///

what his he referring to here ?

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

by proudpapa on 2015/12/10 0:13:40

RE:/// The Gentile Church turned away to the elements of Gnosticism hidden within the Christian religion, to the seeking of "private revelation” that often bore little resemblance to the truths revealed in Scripture. Much confusion has attended the understanding of the essential nature of God as a resultb of these events.///

what his he referring to here ?

I am curious about the same thing, David. And what is the "Gentile" church? For that matter, what is a Jewish Church? I don't see any such phraseology in the Scriptures.

P
proudpapa Dec 10, 2015

RE: ///the longing for another conquering hero that would defeat the pagans and restore the glory of Israel took root in the hearts and minds of the great majority of Jews. This longing gradually became entwined with the Messianic longing and the Messiah envisioned at the time of Yeshua bore more resemblance to Caesar than to the suffering Servant.///

Behold: Bibi the Messiah, No Resurrection Necessary ...
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/behold-bibi-the-messiah/2014/03/09/

add:

"The Jews are looking for a man of war who will establish a lasting peace,elevating Israel to a place of Prominence-exact ministry of antichrist. Christians are caught up in the fervor and are assisting the Jews to recieve the fake Christ when he comes" - Michael Pearl

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

Interesting article, proudpapa. So, after reading your article I have a question. What is the relationship between the Messianic Synagogues in Israel and the secular leadership of Israel? I think I know what the relationship is between Messianics and Religious Jews, but what is the relationship between Messianics and Israeli government? I assume it is good or at least tolerable since they are allowed to stay and live in Israel. The Israeli government must still consider the Messianics, Jews which mean they can stay in Israel. Do the religious Jews consider the Messianics, as Jews, still?

Interesting article: Why evangelicals’ love for Jews is a case of unrequited love.
http://www.religionnews.com/2014/07/18/commentary-evangelicals-love-jews-case-unrequited-love/

add: Just realized you have to be a member to read the article. Here is the full article.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/religion/commentary-why-evangelicals-love-for-jews-is-a-case-of-unrequited-love/2014/07/18/a605cf24-0e9e-11e4-b0dd-edc009ac1f9d_story.html

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

by proudpapa on 2015/12/10 8:39:33

RE: ///the longing for another conquering hero that would defeat the pagans and restore the glory of Israel took root in the hearts and minds of the great majority of Jews. This longing gradually became entwined with the Messianic longing and the Messiah envisioned at the time of Yeshua bore more resemblance to Caesar than to the suffering Servant.///

Behold: Bibi the Messiah, No Resurrection Necessary ...
http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/behold-bibi-the-messiah/2014/03/09/

add:

"The Jews are looking for a man of war who will establish a lasting peace,elevating Israel to a place of Prominence-exact ministry of antichrist. Christians are caught up in the fervor and are assisting the Jews to recieve the fake Christ when he comes" - Michael Pearl

Are some Evangelicals agreeing with the Jewish people as to what the Messiah will be like?

D
docs Dec 10, 2015

Sincerely I would ask that you brothers tread a bit carefully with your input into this thread. I ask you to tread carfully because of recent events on this forum surrounding the Jewish question etc. This thread is not meant to be about the relationship of the Isareli gov't to Messanic believers there or unrequited love from the Jews to the church etc. and other things outside the scope I intended.

The original post was an effort to perhaps discuss the relationship that the Greek way of thinking and world view may have had and may still be influencing the Christian church and the way it views things and scripture.

Sincerely, let's stay disciplined and on subject. It's not hard we just have to want to.

Thank you and blessings.

D
docs Dec 10, 2015

"The Gentile Church turned away to the elements of Gnosticism hidden within the Christian religion, to the seeking of "private revelation" that often bore little resemblance to the truths revealed in Scripture. Much confusion has attended the understanding of the essential nature of God as a result of these events."

I'm not altogether sure what he means by this and perhaps it can be part of what we discuss. Perhaps those in the early church who didn't want to trust the face simplicity of scripture, because of the Greek/Hellenistic influence in their thinking, begin to seek "private revelation" as to the deeper meaning and eventually the Gnostic movement arose based on secret revelatory knowledge given to only a special view. I'm as curious as you are.

It has been argued, with a bit of ample persuasion in my opinion, that later Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, both largely influential church patriarchs, tried to meld and synthesize Greek philosophy thinking into their scriptural analysis. How much does this Greek way of thinking perhaps inadverdently still influence the way we see scripture? I'm as curious as anyone. Do we want to see before believing or according to the historical pure Hebrew mindset, do we believe because our trust is in "things not seen?"

D
docs Dec 10, 2015

These are not my thoughts but the thoughts of someone who was commenting on the article I shared in the original post. It's not presented as something youi have to agree with on every point. It's just part of my overall presentation and open for comments.

(BEGIN)
As Christian believers I think most of us appreciate that our spiritual heritage is in Israel. As we see in Holy Scripture it is with a God who speaks to His people very personally by His Holy Word. The Holy One of Israel speaks to us in pictures, poetic imagery, in rehearsing celebrations, in symbols, types and shadows, and in parables. But as Western people we have been diverted from the highway of holiness and from the pathway of personal devotion to God.

There is a Way that leads ever upwards to Yehovah-God and into His glory. But sadly, we have been diverted from that Way and led off the pilgrim pathway.

How were we side-lined? That happened in many ways. But one of the big stories still hidden from us is this. We were run through the Greek culture over two millennia ago. And they bent our minds to their way of looking at God and away from His world view. So the question is this. Have we as Christian and Messianic believers been Hellenized?

The Greeks impacted us in ways we do not appreciate. They changed our way of thinking. They changed the way we look at the world around us. In math and in the sciences, and in all the skills that benefit from a dispassionate objective perspective this Greek reasoning and its attendant sophisticated sophistry was certainly a good thing for the world. But is this world view also good for the devotion of the covenant people of God to their God? Does it benefit them? Can they depend on this inherited or adopted Greek thinking as they respond and relate to their God?
. . . . . . . . Perhaps not so much.

Alexander the Great conquered Medo-Persia as much with this Greek philosophy and rationalistic mode of thinking as he did with his army. But how did that play out in Jewish and Christian history? And how did that man-centered reasoning impact the realms of our relationship with God. Does He not seek a very personal, not just an objective legalistic or rationalistic discourse with each one of His covenant people?

Have we as people in the Judeo-Christian families been Hellenized? And if so, how so? What did Neo-Platonism do to the Jewish house? And what did Hellenism do to the Scriptures and to Christian faith in the first three centuries of Church history? We can pause here and take a look at the history. Not much good, eh?

The beat goes on into modern history and onwards to our time. Did Greek rationalism have something to do with the so-called Enlightenment of the 18th Century? Did rationalistic secular humanism have something to do with the collapse of the French Revolution and its descent into the "Reign of Terror"? And how did Greek reasoning and sophistry affect those 19th Century German theological schools that gave us so-called "higher criticism"? In short, how did the Greek way of thinking change the way we relate to God, even a God who as He teaches us also shares with us by His Holy Spirit His feelings and His subjective view of things?

The reason this is important is because Greek thinking is in many way the way we still look at God. It is the way we evaluate Him and His Word. We assess God and His words objectively and dispassionately. Sermons based upon this process of processing God and processing His Word are usually well received as intellectually superior. But this is not "the Way". Nor does it lead to the Truth and the Life which is only to be found in Immanuel, God-with-us.

Our Greek thinking is a big part of our failure to open the door to a personal conversation with "the God who is there". Man-centered humanism and our precious reasoning minds still hobble the Western people and put limits on us as believers in our walk of faith. The Hellenized mind is a faith killer. And it is stunting the growth of Christian and Messianic believers, even today.

The Holy Spirit has been given to us to provide divine commentary on the Holy Scriptures and pointers from God's Word on what we see in the world around us. As we see in Deuteronomy 30 He is a very personal God. And yes, by the guidance and empowering of His Holy Spirit He speaks to us in a subjective way concerning the objective view that the world presents to us. (END)

D
docs Dec 10, 2015

Regarding "Theology and the Greek Mindset."

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Articles/Hellenism/hellenism.html

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

So, what do you think, David? Have we been Hellenized? Is the "WE", Christendom in general or are you referring to a particular denomination or cult (Catholic Church for instance)?

D
docs Dec 10, 2015

//So, what do you think, David? Have we been Hellenized? Is the "WE", Christendom in general or are you referring to a particular denomination or cult (Catholic Church for instance)?//

The "WE" would likely refer to Christendom in general. I'm not familar with all the ins and outs of this argument and was hoping someone might be more knoweldgeble than me. I'm reading and trying to find out more precisely what Greek thought was and what it represented verses the Hebrew world view that scripture presents. So I need to do that. From what I've read so far I think the church may be lacking in some areas of course but at the same time has already made tremendous strides against Greek thought and philosophy. Embracing Christ incarnate and revelation unknowable any other way except that God revealed it is part and parcel of the church's belief system and that mitigates against Greek thought and is more in line with the Hebrew prism through whcih God chose to reveal Himself and is seen in the Scriptures. So I need to think for a bit but I'll get back to you. If anything, I believe to a degree that the emphasis on "the kingdom of God is within you" (and is entrely spiritual) and "My kingdom is not of this world" has been misconstrued a bit and has tended to make the Christian hope if not only then largely having to do with another world of higher reality and better than the earthlly when the Hebrew view authored by God brings the two, the earthly and the heavenly, together in a glorious harmony of complementary reality. But like I said, I need to think a bit and will get back to you.

sermonindex Dec 10, 2015

I think sometimes we make things a bit too complicated and we can't see the wood for the trees.

In simple terms it is all about the "flesh" and the "spirit" and the one we feed more wins.

Romans 7v.21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature[d] a slave to the law of sin.

Romans 8v5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace

Let's become "more than conquerors through him who loved us " Rom8v 37

sermonindex Dec 11, 2015

docs, that's REALLY good.

L
Lysa Dec 11, 2015


DOCS, very good.

Markuskiwi, thank you for this too!!

P
proudpapa Dec 11, 2015

Hi Docs,

Docs wrote : ///I'm not altogether sure what he means by this and perhaps it can be part of what we discuss.///

I would be interested in knowing where I can read more writings of, or information on the writer of the artical , many red flags come up when I read it.

docs wrote : RE: /// Perhaps those in the early church who didn't want to trust the face simplicity of scripture, because of the Greek/Hellenistic influence in their thinking, begin to seek "private revelation" as to the deeper meaning and eventually the Gnostic movement arose based on secret revelatory knowledge given to only a special view. I'm as curious as you are.///

When we are speaking of the early church and the Greek/Hellenistic influence, are we speaking of Augustine and those that follow after him , or are we including all of the pre nicene writings also ?

Docs wrote: re: /// It has been argued, with a bit of ample persuasion in my opinion, that later Augustine and Thomas Aquinas, both largely influential church patriarchs, tried to meld and synthesize Greek philosophy thinking into their scriptural analysis.../

I feel Augustine influenced the church in many negative ways, just war theory/persecution of the heratics etc. which led to justification of the inquisition.

The crusades the inquisition the persecution of the protasants,anabaptist,quakers,jews etc. would have never happened if such doctrine (which was unheard of for 300 years prior) would have never entered christendom.

Pelagius accused Augustines original sin / sinful nature concept to have been derived from his gnostic past.(a hellenized concept)

The idea that man is born intrinsically evil, I neither find biblical nor clear reality.

Children are born naked and unaware: that is to say innocent versus being born intrinsically evil.

D
docs Dec 11, 2015

So bro, if you are inclined, you don't have to, what stuck out to you? I'm learning a little more each time I have been reading on this but would be interested in what you saw that may have stood out.

Thank you and everyone.

sermonindex Dec 11, 2015

by docs on 2015/12/9 12:08:03

This was written by a Jewish Messianic believer. I'm not pushing Jewish Messianic believers per say. It could have just as well been written by a Gentile believer but it has enough meat in it that I thought I would offer it for what it's worth. Comments welcome if you are inclined.

Did I miss who the writer of this was? I would also like to read more of his writings to get a better picture of where he is coming from. I have never seen this viewpoint, before.

Only other place I found this article is here. docs, you are getting more feedback on SI, but who is the author?
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?247541-Have-we-been-Hellenized

D
docs Dec 11, 2015

//Did I miss who the writer of this was? I would also like to read more of his writings to get a better picture of where he is coming from. I have never seen this viewpoint, before.//

The author is a Jewish believer in Christ named Tom is all I know. A somewhat casual acquaintance of mine received this article from his friend and then he shared it with several people on a mailing list in which we correspond with each other from time to time. He openly shared it with us and I liked the article (though not understanding it all) so I thought I would share it here and try and get some feedback I'm still learning. As far as I can determine the author has no website that I know of but was just writing to a friend of his.

I don't believe this subject is new at all and has been discussed and written about and debated for a pretty long while. It's not a shallow subject I'm finding.

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