I know we have discussed the prophecy of the destruction of Damascas and whether it was fulfilled in the past, yet to be fulfilled, etc.
Dr Michael Brown had a FB post today showing how ISIS has decimated the city of Damascas.
So I guess it is happening as we speak.
Hey Todd,
Here is a different opinion:
The Isaiah 17 Damascus Bible prophecy has been fulfilled.
http://americanvision.org/9371/isaiah-17-damascus-bible-prophecy-has-been-fulfilled/
I agree that that interpretation may be (and probably is) correct.
I don't watch a lot of news so when I saw the photo of all the damage ISIS has done I was surprised.
No it has NOT been fulfilled completely . Most of it is yet to occur
Brethren let's me put the question this way. Is the Bible merely a history book of prophecies that have been fulfilled in times past. Or is there a future fulfillment of prophecy as yet to come?
Bear
Bear I believe some prophecy is still to be fulfilled (eg 2nd coming, final judgment) but I also believe much has been fulfilled (eg 1st coming, destruction of Jerusalem and temple system). Remember the Bible was written at least 2000 years ago (or close) and some much further back.
Even NT book passages that are latched onto as referring to OUR future used language like "soon" and "near" and "shortly." And they were written to real people way back then.
Ditto, TMK.
byDavid Eaglehawk \t
Damascus is the capital and largest city of Syria. It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities in the world. It has never been completely destroyed during its long history, but this is precisely what the prophet Isaiah says will happen in Isaiah 17:1 "See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid. (Isaiah 17:1-2) This prophecy was only partially fulfilled when the Assyrians defeated the Arameans and Damascus, in 732 BC.
Today Damascus is one of the world's oldest continuously inhabited city with a 5000-year history yet Isaiah 17:1 indicates that it will one day cease to exist. Some authorities believe the phrase "cities of Aroer" should be rendered "the cities thereof shall be forsaken." The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim [ie Northern Kingdom], and royal power from Damascus; the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites," declares the LORD Almighty. "In that day the glory of Jacob [ie Northern Kingdom] will fade; the fat of his body will waste away. It will be as when a reaper gathers the standing grain and harvests the grain with his arm- as when a man gleans heads of grain in the Valley of Rephaim. (Isaiah 17:3-5)
This refers to the fall of Samaria 10 years later , and the deportation of almost everyone to the far reaches of the Assyrian Empire. Jacob and Ephraim are alternate names for the Northern Kingdom. Yet some gleanings will remain, as when an olive tree is beaten, leaving two or three olives on the topmost branches, four or five on the fruitful boughs," declares the LORD, the God of Israel. (Isaiah 17:6)
Not all the people were removed - a remnant remained . In that day men will look to their Maker and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel. They will not look to the altars, the work of their hands, and they will have no regard for the Asherah poles and the incense altars their fingers have made. In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation. (Isaiah 17:7-9)
This prophecy was not fulfilled in history: the Assyrians did not turn to God following their conquest of Aram and Israel. Historically, it was the Israelites who were defeated, abandoned their cities, and dispersed, yet in this verse the Israelites caused it.
( A much more likely fulfillment is the yet-future Jewish attack on Damascus causing the destruction and abandonment of Syrian cities; the Israelis want to pre-emptively attack Iran's nuclear facilities, as Iran and Syria supply the money, arms, and manpower for the thousands of missiles Hezbollah has arrayed against Israel. You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress. Therefore, though you set out the finest plants and plant imported vines, though on the day you set them out, you make them grow, and on the morning when you plant them, you bring them to bud, yet the harvest will be as nothing in the day of disease and incurable pain. (Isaiah 17:10-11)
Shem was Noah's eldest son, and he was the father of Asshur (ie father of the Assyrians), and Aram, (ie father of the Arameans), and Aram's son Uz is the traditional founder of Damascus. The knowledge of God in the memories of these patriarchs cannot be questioned. It wasn't that they never knew Him, but that they had forgotten Him, abandoned Him in favour of the Canaanite gods of the region, and currently Syria is almost totally Moslem.
But return to Him they will. In Isaiah 19 we're told that in the Kingdom Age there'll be a highway extending from Egypt to Assyria, and both will stand with Israel to receive the Lord's blessing. (Isaiah 19:23-25)
Oh, the raging of many nations- they rage like the raging sea! Oh, the uproar of the peoples- they roar like the roaring of great waters! Although the peoples roar like the roar of surging waters, when he rebukes them they flee far away, driven before the wind like chaff on the hills, like tumbleweed before a gale. In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone! This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who plunder us. (Isaiah 17:12-14)
Having conquered both the Arameans and the Northern Kingdom, the Assyrians under King Sennacherib attacked the Southern Kingdom of Judah, but the Lord sent His angel into the Assyrian camp and killed 185,000 Assyrian soldiers. (Isaiah 37:36-38) Isaiah speaks of many nations raging against God's people, not just Assyria, meaning Sennacherib's defeat was only a partial fulfillment.
Today many believe that Syria will soon try to provoke a Jewish response, and if that escalates things further it can easily result in the destruction of Damascus in the final fulfillment of Isaiah 17.
Brothers respectfully you may want to take a look at Syria today. Right now Damascus still remains. Presently there is the United States, Great Britain, Germany, Turkey, Iran, China, Israel, and the biggest player Russia all involved in Syria. And I forgot to mention the Syrians themselves. And those that are opposing the nations ISIS and various rebel groups that are fighting one another. Or fighting ISIS. Or fighting Assad. Put this all together. I believe we are looking at Ezekiel 38 -39 war unfolding.
Brethren I do not hold that Ezekiel 38 -39 was fukfilled in the past. But I believe it is yet to be fulfilled. Given all of this. Then I surmise that Damascus will be decimated.
My thoughts.
Bear
Damascus was destroyed according to Isaiah and 100 years later, the prophet Jeremiah also predicted the fall of Damascus, which had been rebuilt. His prophecy was fulfilled when the city was captured by Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon.
I believe it makes more sense to hold that Isaiah 17 was fulfilled in the eighth century BC when both Damascus, the capital of Syria, and Samaria, the capital of Israel, were hammered by the Assyrians. In that conquest, both Damascus and Samaria were destroyed, just as Isaiah 17 predicts.
According to history, Tiglath-pileser III (745”“727 BC) pushed vigorously to the west, and in 734 the Assyrians advanced and laid siege to Damascus, which fell two years later in 732.
Bear I am not saying you can't be right because you may be.
But we have to be somewhat careful in interpreting prophetic passages like you mention 100% literally. Consider the following passage from Isaiah regarding judgment on Edom. Surely the smoke from its burning is not still rising today:
Isaiah 34:8-10 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance,The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch,And its dust into brimstone;Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day;Its smoke shall ascend forever.From generation to generation it shall lie waste;No one shall pass through it forever and ever.
I dont know how helpful the Damascus conversation is. But I have an honest question, so count me in. :)
Someone said Damascus was partially destroyed and that the event equals a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 17. How? If Isaiah meant a total and permanent destruction of Damascus how can a 2700 year old partial destruction of what is today the oldest continually existing city be "partial" fulfillment? That seems to me a lot like predicting the oceans will run dry and then saying evaporation in June 515 AD partially fulfilled that. See what I mean? I don't see how that prophecy can be fulfilled partially. Either Damascus did or will cease to be a city or it did not/will not.
Is it possible that Isaiah 17:1 does not mean permanently so? Yes. In fact, the Hebrew does not mean permanent cessation. It means to be laid aside or put down, to turn off, call back or decline. Pardon the comparison, but it may be like Chrysler or Pontiac. They ceased but you can still buy parts, still see them in the road (I drive a Pontiac), and the companies that made them make the same things in the same places by other names. V. 3 uses the word "shabbath" to describe the kingdom of Damascus. It can mean permanent stoppage, but usually does not.
I don't know, y'all. I would not be surprised to see Damascus catastrophically fall in the near future. Not knowing is not knowing---it isn't disagreeing with the Lord. I personally *feel* like Is. 17:1 is future and that it means total wipe out forever, but I would be very dishonest to look at the Word and say it *must* be so.
Brothers 2nd Timothy 3:16 says all Scripture IS inspired by God. It does not say all Scripture WAS inspired by God. But all Scripture IS inspired by God. I merely point this out to suggest that there is a present on going inspiration of the Word of God. If the Bible is merely reduced to a history book. Then the text would read all Scripture WAS by God.
I realized compared to some of this forum I'm not the biblical scholar. But if we take a historical preterist view of Scripture and try to reduce everything as being fulfilled before 70 ad. Then we are losing the uniqueness of the Bible speaking to us today. Particularly in the area of prophecy. Particularly in the area of the coming of the Lord.
Let me pose this question respectfully. I'm sure that we would all agree that the cross was a historical event that took place 2,000 years ago. What does that event still have relevance to us today. Does the cross of Jesus Christ and what took place historically in time and space 2000 years ago. Does that event have spiritual implications to us today. I hope you answer yes. Because if you are merely looking at the cross as a historical event with no relevance to the believer today. Then you have no salvation and no hope of eternal life.
Brothers I'm simply reasoning that the Bible is not merely a historical book. Praise God that history and archaeology have proved the trustworthiness of Scripture. But the Bible is more than just a history book. It is a book of life. It is a book that still speaks to us today agree with this.
As usual these are my thoughts.
Blaine
Let me pose this question respectfully. I'm sure that we would all agree that the cross was a historical event that took place 2,000 years ago. What does that event still have relevance to us today. Does the cross of Jesus Christ and what took place historically in time and space 2000 years ago. Does that event have spiritual implications to us today. I hope you answer yes. Because if you are merely looking at the cross as a historical event with no relevance to the believer today. Then you have no salvation and no hope of eternal life.
Yes, Blaine.
Bearmaster,
Brethren let's me put the question this way. Is the Bible merely a history book of prophecies that have been fulfilled in times past. Or is there a future fulfillment of prophecy as yet to come?
One convincing example would be Hosea 11:1, Matt 2:15 ("Out of Egypt I have called My Son.").
Sometimes it seems that some Christians are offended at the suggestion that some prophecies were fulfilled in the past. True, that makes it history to us, but when the prophecy was made it was still future. To me it's awesome that we can look back with hindsight to see how prophecy was fulfilled. This is especially true with all the messianic prophecies and the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse in 70 ad.
I agree the the Word is alive and two-edged and certainly pertains to us today. This would be true even if every prophecy in it has already been fulfilled (I don't believe this) because it contains so much more than just prophecy.
by dolfan
Someone said Damascus was partially destroyed and that the event equals a partial fulfillment of Isaiah 17. How? If Isaiah meant a total and permanent destruction of Damascus how can a 2700 year old partial destruction of what is today the oldest continually existing city be "partial" fulfillment?
by yuehan on 2015/12/30 7:13:11
You might want to look up "Midrash" - it's a rabbinic method of hermeneutics which posits that biblical prophecy can have multiple fulfillments, finally being capped off by an ultimate fulfillment.One convincing example would be Hosea 11:1, Matt 2:15 ("Out of Egypt I have called My Son.").
Yuehan,
This is certainly true of messianic prophecies and we have seen the second fulfillment of them in Christ's appearance on the stage of history 2,000 years ago.
There are many prefigurings of Christ in the life of Moses and David. We don't see Paul or Peter or James or John speaking about double meanings of non messianic prophecies that were prophecied and fulfilled all within the OT.
The phenomena of taking an OT prophecy and assigning another future event to it started at most, about 400 years ago. Again, no mention of these prophecies by the Early Church.
Tim respectively brother. If I take a view of Scripture that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled is not being offended on my part. But I'm simply trying to be Berean on my part. Going before the Holy Spirit and looking at His word and asking all these things true.
I think I have seen by your previous posts that you hold to the preterist view of the Olivet Discourse. That you would say that this was all fulfilled in 70 AD.
Brother I could go all through the signs of Matthew 24 and ask how to preterist would explain their ongoing reality. But let me just take one of the signs. One that I am very well familiar with because of the nature of my prayer call.
Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 24:9.......They will deliver you up to tribulation and will kill you and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
Now if I understand your position. You would say that this was fulfilled in 70 AD. If this was fulfilled in 70 AD then there should be no present persecution. Or is this the prettiest position?
Brother respectfully my question is why am I still moderating a call praying for the persecuted church three nights a week? Why am I still reading heart-wrenching reports of believers who are being martyred for Christ? Why is it documented that persecution of Christians is taking place in over 139 nations in this present day? Why were precious Saints slain for their faith in Jesus in Uganda, the Philippines, and Nigeria this past Christmas? Brother respectfully for that matter why is Greg still posting articles about the persecuted church in this forum?
Brother this question is asked respectfully and in a conciliatory manner or tone. I really would like to know how Oreterists such as yourself explain the reality of ongoing persecution in this present age. If you say the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD. There is no sarcasm implied here. I just want to know how you view the reality of ongoing persecution of our brothers and sisters if you believe the discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD.
Respectfully submitted by Blaine.
Brother I posted a respectful question to Tim. I invite you also to respond to it. How do you explain the reality of ongoing persecution in this present age if the Olivet Discourse is fulfilled in 70 AD?
Blaine
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