Let's talk about Marriage

Why not? In the post about "10 wives", the thread seemed to be going that way, and I began to realize that there are many with difficulties, and some with successful relationships. I only ask you one thing, please do not bash your spouse. If you have to share something to someone else's expense, then it would be better that you said nothing at all. I guess what really moved me to start this thread was the most recent post by "roadsign". Diane said she had spent much effort, many hours and lots of dollars on books, tapes, etc. trying to improve her marriage relationship. She said all she got for her effort was frustration and a sense of failure. Why is that? She went on to say that knowledge cannot change us. Only God can. Amen. There's good news. He will change us if we ask Him too. Don't expect Him to change your spouse however. Expect Him to change you. We are not in the "people change business". That's God's job. We tell others about the life changing Savior and when they put their faith and hope in Him, they change. We tell them about how He has changed us, (not our spouse), and they find the hope and faith they need to believe in Him for themselves. Even that is ineffective unless we are operating in the Spirit. They must witness the change in us to really begin to believe that God can change them too. (They must see that I'm no longer the ego-maniac pride filled jerk I used to be, thanks be to God).I heard someone say that a young man expects his wife to stay the same, and her whole life is spent changing. The young woman expects that after marriage, she'll change the husband and he is ever trying to stay the same. I think that's true to some extent. The bottom line is that women are completely different from men and men from women....or haven't you noticed. :-P As with all our relationships, we are not living in them to change others, but let others see the changes in us. This requires crucifixion and death beloved. In other words, it takes a true born again christian to really pull this off. And they can't do it by knowledge, they must rely totally and completely on our nature changing God to do this. It's our nature to sin. It's our nature to be selfish. It's our nature to want our marriage partner to meet all our needs...and hope that a few of theirs gets met in the process. It's our carnal nature that makes marriage bliss very difficult for the unsaved. It's difficult at times for anyone. But for the unsaved, it's very hard. Now our culture has degenerated into this "use a partner till the going gets rough, then chunk 'em" life style. Divorce is as common in church as it is outside church. Sadly,we don't think any more about it than do those who don't claim to live a christian lifestyle.My wife and I have been married 23 years. All bliss? Nope. But like most of my life, it has survived by the grace of God. It's getting better as the days go by, not because she is changing, but because I am. I have learned to leave her in the hands of the Holy One. I have thrown myself at His feet and asked for His help in changing me, that I may live His life before her. I want to be the kind of Husband He would be to her. "Is that hard", you ask? Let me ask you, "is the cross hard". Of course it is. But it is also necessary. So what's your advice for married christian couples, christian/non-christian couples, and non-christian couples? I'm sure there has to be someone out there who is looking for answers. Nobody wants to continue in a bad relationship. But if we change partners, we take our "badness" with us. We compound our problems, especially if there are children involved. I can tell you this much, if you are not willing to die, to give your life for the happiness of the other, you will have a rough time spending your entire lives together. Jesus gave His life for us. It did not meet any of His needs except the love that we cannot comprehend, for pitifully lost people. We are to love our wives as He loved us. He gave His life for His spouse, and as men, we are to do the same for ours. What about the women you ask? I'm kinda fond of what the amplified says about wives. They are to revere their husbands. Now before you swell up with ego, Mr. Husband, are you presenting to her the kind of husband she can revere? Hmmmmm. Folks, this life is all about selflessness, not selfishness. It's about forgiveness. It's about using a very short measure to measure others, knowing the same measure we use for them will be used for us. It's about death....to get to life. Abundant life. Life above circumstances and events.One final note for you youngsters out there who are new in marriage, especailly the guys with the harmones running wide open with after burner on. Sexual bliss does not come from your wife. Surprise! All good things come from God. If our own needs are not being met, we must realize that all "good" things come from God. The sexual favor of our wives come from Him as well. I have learned the hard way, that if I'm in "need" of some personal attention from my wife, I stand a much better chance of getting what I need and desire from God, and taking it to Him in prayer, than approaching her directly. After all, my wife and I are totally different. So what I say to her is likely not to be what she hears. So the there will probably not be any positive result from the dialog. But I have found that if I take it to God, then in short order, everything else just falls into place. It's absolutely amazing. So guys, die. Die to self. Yield the entirety of your being to the direction and leadership of God. Make it your business to love your wives and give your life to it. In doing so, you will find a relationship that is likely to exceed all your previous expectations.Sigh. I've somehow rambled on here. My, my. What about you? What's your story? What's your advice? How has God changed you in your relationship? I'm really interested and excited about the possibilities. If it saves one marriage, including my own, then it's worth all our effort. God bless you one and all.

Hi, Time has a way of calming emotion and healing wounds. Since my own marriage is going rather well currently, I've forgotten some of the complexities that marriage relationships can evolve through. Thank you for reminding me. If a reader has not been married, or is living in a very holy and wonderful marriage, then this thread is very difficult to understand. But this does not mean that you cannot benefit from it. You never know what may lie ahead of you on that narrow way. Matthew 6:33 Jesus tells us cleary to seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and then all these things (I'm sure things includes a healthy and content marriage) will be added unto you. Surely I agree. I also agree that marriages can become idolatrous. But from the ladies side, I'm also seeing a wall of defense. Or maybe it's a hiding from pain. I certainly mean noone any offense here. But by your comments, it has occured to me that God may be replacing the husband. I hope I'm wrong. God never intended to have the husband replaced by Himself. It is supposed to be a three way relationship of unconditional love. In fact, it is my understanding that if a non-christian wants to see the full expression of the representation of God, they must see a Godly couple together who both seek first the kingdom of God and each is passionately in love with the other two. The man nor the woman, however Godly they may be, do not have the complete expression of God alone. It is only when the two become ONE that we see completeness of His nature. Women are commanded by scripture to love and even revere the husbands. The husbands are supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the church and give themselves for the wife. Love for each other can be deep and passionate without being idolatrous, as long as each realizes that the other is a gift from God and gives thanks in all things. I used to "expect" my wife to provide this or that. But through trial and much error, I realized that all good things are provided by the Lord of my life, even if they come from or through my wife. She is often the vessel of blessing that God uses to bless me. When I began to recognize this and seek Him and give thanks and trust Him for what I need, then I began to move into a holy place where depression and disappointment had no dark closet to hide in. After all, I can't get angry with God, if I really trust Him and rely on Him. I surely have nothing to blame Him for. Doubt is the enemy of true faith. So I cannot rely on circumstances and events for contentment, even if these involve my wife. Did He give me tests? Absolutely, and still does. But it's alot easier now than it used to be. Who changed? I did. What we go through molds us more into the image of Christ and gives each one more opporunity to die. Only Agape love, that is unconditional love that has a benevolent attachment too it, a giving without expectation of recompense, that love is the love that God gives, and desires, both for Himself, and for our spouses. Now, I realize that some of you have been hurt immeasurably. You are not alone. Not everyone can understand. Unless we have walked in your shoes, it is difficult to understand what you have suffered. The breach of the marriage relatioship is a terribly destructive occurance both for the man as well as the woman. Though our emotions and responses may be different, making two out of one is a very painful and distructive occurance. It is very difficult to unscramble an egg. However, that does not mean that scrambled egg cannot be a viable solution to our hunger. No, it will never be unscrambled, but it can be a blessing non the same. If we allow our self to fall into this gutter of "I've been wounded above all others" mentality, and I'm not saying that any one here has done that, but if we do, we are usurping the position of God. Why? Because nobody has been hurt as much as He has. Every time I've gone to God with my "pity list", He asks me, "Lahry, have you ever done that to Me"? "Yes Lord". "Did I ever refuse to forgive you?" "No Lord". "Then what is your response to your wife, Lahry". "I will gladly forgive her, Lord." "Oh and one more thing, Lord, please forgive me for even bringing this up." See, beloved, the same measure that we use to measure othes will be used to measure ourselves. Be careful. Be very careful. I doubt that there is a married soul who would read this that could honestly say that since they have been married they have never laid eyes on another person of the opposite sex that they did not have sexual desire for. Jesus said, to lust sexually after another is the same as doing it, just like malicious anger is the same as murder. So we cannot ascend to this lofty purch of being better than someone else. Yes adultery is painful. No one would deny that. But it's not the end of the world, and it need not be the end of a marriage. Repentance and faith will bring both of you through. Clinging to one another will heal the wound. I apologize for not having all the answers. We see through a glass darkly, and sometimes we are totally blind. However, our God knows all the answers, and difficulties in marriage can be huge opportunities to prove that we do emphatically trust Him in all things. Lord, we all need our eyes open when it comes to marriage relationships. Help us to understand Your desires and Your will, and give us hearts that obey you above all and through all. Help us to understand and value the gifts of our spouses. Help us to appreciate their strengths and stand in the gap of their weaknesses. Bring us together in such intimacy Lord, that we radiate Your glory and love through hearts that are united with Thee. In Jesus' Holy Name we pray. Amen and amen.

Yes, beloved, I did read your testimony, and my heart grieves with yours. How pathetic it is for all of us to realize only after the fact that sin is horrible and ugly and very painful to all. An old baptist minister wrote once that "sin will take you farther than you intended to go, keep you there longer than you were willing to stay, and always costs you more than you are willing to pay". Surely that applies here. Chanin, you are a very brave lady. I hope your husband appreciates Christ moving through you and in you. May He ever strengthen you and reveal to you that your security is not in mortal man, but in the Good Shepard. Thanks be to God.

If we allow our self to fall into this gutter of "I've been wounded above all others" mentality, and I'm not saying that any one here has done that, but if we do, we are usurping the position of God. Why? Because nobody has been hurt as much as He has. Every time I've gone to God with my "pity list", He asks me, "Lahry, have you ever done that to Me"? "Yes Lord". "Did I ever refuse to forgive you?" "No Lord". "Then what is your response to your wife, Lahry". "I will gladly forgive her, Lord." "Oh and one more thing, Lord, please forgive me for even bringing this up." See, beloved, the same measure that we use to measure othes will be used to measure ourselves. Be careful. Be very careful. ... Yes adultery is painful. No one would deny that. But it's not the end of the world, and it need not be the end of a marriage. Repentance and faith will bring both of you through. Clinging to one another will heal the wound.Bro Lahry, please know that I am not disputing your testimony. Underlying it are assumptions about human love, and the truth that both spouses belong to the Lord and are seeking to please Him, as you demonstrate.I was in a conference once, at the last of a series of 3 seminars on marriage, this one entitled 'Conflict'. The speakers were a well-known married couple, both with university degrees in theology-related subjects, who teach and preach for a living. They have disagreements; they feel they have not lived up to the high standard to which they aspire; they find ways to nurture their love by applying love, intelligence and their honest desire to please God, to those moments when oneness of mind seems to be elusive. I am listening to this, wondering when they are going to deal with the scriptural perspective on family voilence. What should a woman do if she is being beaten, to please the Lord in this situation? What if she suspects or knows a family member is abusing the children? As the last 15 minutes approach and these topics have not featured at all, I begin to feel uncomfortable. I feel there is a culture of denial in the church. A woman who needs to cross the back of the hall to get to the restroom, is sick in the main corridor. I know it is because she came hoping to hear a word from God to her situation, and she is being sent away empty. And how many other adjectives could be used to describe her isolation? This is a scandal! 2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; 4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, for your consolation and salvation. There is a world of difference between suffering for Christ as Paul did, for the sake of the telling the gospel, and simply being a Christian in a Christian marriage, when one is naturally expecting to outwork Christianity in that context. In both contexts, particularly where a non-Christian has inflicted 'pain', it is the Lord Who heals the recipient and to whom we should go quickly for assistance. He is FULL of COMPASSION. This an aspect of the normal condition of His heart, from which Health flows; He understands whether He has taken sin from me, or another person - whatever caused my wound. Only He knows how to put His finger on the spot exactly. I did not know this then, as I know it now, though.The Christian spouse who loves with the love of God may indeed be able to minister that love to the other spouse, but, many times the pain is worse than the 'injury' should have provoked. It is at this observation, one should seek the Lord and His balm. I think I'm trying to say this - that one cannot always find an intellectual reason to forgive. But, one can always receive from the Lord. Then one is healed and strengthened to do what is right, whether it is to forgive, to apologise, to confess one's fault at a more generic level, to stop being the person who expects the other person to yield first. It is a myth that 'people' can meet each other's deepest needs. This simply is not true. No matter how close to a picture of the Lord and the Church a marriage becomes, this will always be because both spouses are looking to the Lord for succour and loving each other.The dynamics of relationships are or can become very complex. I am being gently, ever so gently and effectively, unpicked by the Lord, and reconstructed in His image at an invisible level because I needed this. In fact, my need for this was a large part of the reason I was in a marriage which had no hope of success. Certainly, I could not have been responsible for holding it together single-handedly, in the face of resolute opposition. The Lord confirms this to me, still. I am not saying a Christian cannot make a good marriage with one who turns out to be a non-Christian but, there has to be proper LOVE in place, for it to be a marriage. Otherwise, it is merely a living arrangement which may have started out in good faith, but, it degenerates into a pit where there is no water and it has ceased to serve the purpose for which it originally existed, (in name, at least). Even non-Christians can deeply love each other in a very Godly way and we should be careful to recognise the Lord's influence in this.Much could be said (by me) to further qualify what I have written but there is no point. The Spirit leads those who are walking in Him and listening for the voice of the Lord in such practical situations. He is the Way and this may not mean (me) being sacrificed to a religious ideal in a fake Christian marriage for the sake of the appearance of a local assembly. As the world looks on, often facing the same issues as Christians in marriage, what is the answer? Surely, it is to be ruthlessly honest in identifying the facts, both practical and spiritual, and lifting, rather than laying, burdens of compliance where there is no mutual heart to obey them (or God)? Let My people go! You asked for personal experiences. Here you have mine. Some of it felt yuchy to write but it is not an understated request for sympathy. :-) It's my gospel, in that I had looked to man for salvation and there was none. Obviously, what I have written in a few paragraphs can but barely scratch the surface. Be assured, this is a good thing!

Well, thank you for your post. Thanks for caring enough to share. I do want to make one comment about abuse, be it spousal or child abuse. Nobody is expected to stay in an abusive situation. Nor should anyone stand by and see a child abused by anyone. It is not completely clear to me why some women will cling to a worthless man, take his abuse, and see their children abused emotionally, physically and sexually and not leave. I would guess that they find security that is ever so slight but non the less more than being on their own and just don't have the courage to break away. Please, if you are reading this and are in an abusive situation of know of one, seek ministerial help and counsel. Thank you again, Dorcas for your post. God bless you real good.In His mercy and grace,Lahry

Beloved brethren who replied to my post, thank you. I want to make clear that outright non-sexual physical violence was not part of my lot, nor was rape. Both of us were survivors of childhood sexual abuse and emotional abuse (which by default included emotional neglect and physical violence). This created a situation in which we both approached marriage with the unrecognised agenda of replacing our best opposite-sex role model from childhood as a spouse, to fix everything, thus bringing a multitude of assumptions which served to underline the poverty of our actual knowledge of the Lord. (Please you guys, don't quote this paragraph in the next post. Be merciful! :-))To you brethren who were addressed in Compton's last paragraph (previous post to this) I can honestly say you have a place in my heart. You have been failed somewhere along the line, if you have arrived at this stage in your life and not been faced with the word of God to your heart, which calls you out of your endless loop of coping with life in these ways. Hear Him now, if you will. You are deceiving yourselves. (I recognise this may have started in being deceived by another. This is not a reason to carry it on indefinitely.)God the Father cares deeply that you did not have a father(figure) like Him, to nurture your development, in the past. He also sees the ignorance and denial which leaves you to rot in your deceptions and it grieves His heart. But, you are no different than any other sinner who has to take responsibility for your actions and find them washed away by the blood of the Lamb. Unless you come here - to the blood of the Lamb - they cannot be washed away. And there is much more you can receive from the Lord to heal your own longstanding injuries and those you have unwittingly inflicted on yourself through anger. (There is much more to define, of course, on a personal basis but you have to do this with the Lord, in the privacy of your own heart.) You are not responsible for healing your victims. They too, must find healing from the Lord. On a practical note, though, if you stop hurting them, their healing will begin spontaneously. To you all, healing will also take time. The Lord is able to speed up the process in a miraculous way but sometimes it is not humanly possible for a person to bear the receiving of all they must receive, to become whole. This may apply to you, too; but, look to the end and rejoice that there can be an end! Jesus Christ died that you may be delivered from every bondage. He is also well-able to take your anger. He took and takes mine. His is an truly awesome ministry. Truly, you are without excuse in eternal terms, no matter how you define your needs today. In that Jesus took your punishment, you have nothing to fear by one way of looking at your situation but, you will lose a large part of your current identity if you decide to be healed. But, you will gain a whole identity in Christ, in whom to live is gain. Idolatry is at the root, spiritually, whether you have ever consciously embraced it or were totally a victim yourself and are struggling to resist repeating to others what happened to you. But, if this is/was ingrained in your lifestyle, you will find its tentacles reaching out all over the place, not just at home. Be prepared to be overhauled thoroughly, under the supervision of only One Who knows exactly how to do it.Nevertheless, your first point of call may not be your pastor, unless he has experience or a special gift in ministry. Seek professional help and take as much time to grasp the principles of self-management as you would to understand a doctrine, then pray yourself through, detail by detail, in the presence of the Lord who LOVES you and will give you aid. I know of no other way to 'get' healing. In the process, you will learn to put some things into words and will be surprised at how healing it is to be heard by an appropriate listener, in an appropriate setting. Be guided by your counsellor, as these may not include your immediate family, friends or brethren. But God is there. He hears, too. Stay in His Light.To the truly courageous in God, a ministry awaits you in years to come, you are sooo not alone in your distress. May the Lord bless you richly as you find Him to be more than all you need, to reclaim emotional, mental and physical control of your life IN HIM, the only place to BE; (and to become).I'm sorry if anyone reading this feels patronised. It is entirely unintentional on my part. Please do not let it prevent you moving forward with the Lord. He is the real Counsellor you should hear.