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Hypothetical prophetic question re Ezekiel 38

T
TMK Mar 9, 2016

A certain end times segment feels that Ezekiel 38 describes an attempted invasion of Israel by Russia, Iran, and various other countries. It is also believed that God will intervene supernaturally to thwart this invasion. If I remember correctly in the "left behind" books God rains fire and brimstone on the tanks and planes.

My hypothetical question is this: for those of you who hold to this view, how would you respond if Russia and Iran invaded Israel and there was no miraculous intervention evident? Would that bother you, cause you to lose faith, conclude that this was not the invasion from Ezekiel 38 so another one must be coming, etc.

How would you react?

sermonindex Mar 9, 2016

No, I wouldn't lose faith no matter what happened.

And FYI - I am not a dispensationalist nor a pre-tribber & I don't believe Russia is Magog prophetically. They aren't the "country due north of Israel". Turkey is. All of the cities mentioned in these prophecies & the seat where Satan's throne is point to modern day Turkey (Tuball, Pergamum, all the rest).

Nothing that happens on the world stage would shake my faith whatsoever, by the way. God is sovereign & we see in part & know in part.

And Tim Lahaye's Left Behind eschatology was HORRIBLE IMHO. I don't agree with most of it whatsoever. But I'm still not a preterist.

God Bless,
Jeff

T
TMK Mar 9, 2016

Thanks Jeff- I of course wasn't asking this of you specifically. Personally I always thought Magog was Russia but now I have no interest in trying to identify specific things like that today.

I was thinking about this question when I read about Iran's saber rattling (again) firing missiles with "death to Israel" or some such rubbish written on them.

I just hope people don't panic or freak out if things happen that don't fit their paradigm. I think that is one of the downsides of buying in to heavily into any one end times system and a person should at least be aware of differing systems.

There a lot of things about Revelation, for example, that I do not take literally (an individual antichrist/false prophet, 7 year tribulation, mark of the beast) however I do not 100% deny that these might be literal things. So if they set up a mark-taking station with a guillotine set up for the refusers I'll know what's up. But if it doesn't happen I wont be surprised either.

I sort of lost interest in prophetic things a couple of years back sort of for the reasons I just mentioned; we can't be absolutely sure so why bother. I used to be much more into it. But then I discovered there are better ways to prepare oneself than by studying prophecy. I do like discussing end times things from time to time but its more of a hobby than something I view as extremely important.

A
alamb Mar 10, 2016

I most definitely would not loose faith in God! He has performed so many miracles in my life over the years that I know His action (or seemingly lack of action) is perfectly perfect. God's MO most always surprises me. His sovereignty (supreme excellence, power and never ending control) has caused me to trust Him completely and irregardless of what I think or see. If (and probably when) Israel is attacked on all sides, I will continue what I am doing daily, pray.

In Him....alamb

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

As a young believer I studied quite a bit of prophecies and I have a bit my own version how things could unfold.
I don't trust most end time books, especially by "best- selling authors ", I think what some of those authors are doing best is selling.
I'm also a bit from the "old school " and believe that Magog is Russia.

But my faith is not based on eschatology, or the "correct " end time view, it has to be based on the risen Lord and Savior who has overcome the world.
Our part is to be prepared, to have our lamps full of oil etc.

Maranatha - come Lord Jesus, come !

T
TMK Mar 10, 2016

Amen MK!!

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docs Mar 10, 2016

/"I sort of lost interest in prophetic things a couple of years back sort of for the reasons I just mentioned; we can't be absolutely sure so why bother. I used to be much more into it. But then I discovered there are better ways to prepare oneself than by studying prophecy. I do like discussing end times things from time to time but its more of a hobby than something I view as extremely important."

Im not trying to be a burr here or a meddler but I guess I am meddling a bit so bear with me if you can. I can identify with your sentiments that we can't know everything for absolutely sure but that does not mean that we cannot know a lot in my opinion. There are certain markers and events that God has forecast through prophecy and we can mark where we are at and will be at by those events. Just sharing from my own experience, one thing that helped me immensely was to find out what the Day of the Lord is and when it occurs and all else is connected to and heading toward this eventual day. The coming Day of the Lord was the central hub of all Old Testament escahtology and formed the backdrop of the early church's apostolic proclamations. The Day of the Lord is known in the New Testament as the day of Christ and the day of His appearing etc. and is mentioned some twenty six times in the New Testament. It is the "great day of God, the Almighty" (Rev 16:14-15). Finding out what this day is and when it occurs is in my opinion a solid foundational block to understandinmg eschatology in a clearer manner as we prepare to meet the One in whom we have long hoped.

I'm not trying to lecture but just sharing what was a great help to me.

Blessings.

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Amen docs. I agree with your comments/sentiments

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Brethren, respectfully, we do not have time to deal in hypotheticals. The downside of a forum is that we can engage in hypotheticals and what ifs. But the things that are happening in this age compel us to look at the geopolitical dynamics of what is happening in the Middle East. This is REAL. This is not reality TV like Survivor. But this is REAl. And a reality that we must wake up to!!!

It is estimated that several nations are involved in the Syrian conflict. Either aiding the Assad government or trying to topple it. But consider Russia, the United States, Turkey, Germany, France, Great Britain, Iran, and even China is starting to show an interest in Syria. And I just named the big powers.

A few days ago Iran just tested a missile that has the range to hit Israel. Either with a conventional dirty bomb or biochemical weapon. Or perhaps a nuclear weapon. Iran has said time and again that their goal is to wipe Israel off the map. Iran is also making it known that they are not abiding by the so-called nuclear agreement that they have suckered the west with.

However if you want a hypothetical scenario. And one that I think is very realistic. Israel possesses several hundred tactical nuclear weapons. Israel has as its nuclear doctrine the Samson Option. Anyone familiar with the Old Testament story nose with Samson did in the temple of the Philistines. He brought the house down. If Israel feels like that they are threatened with their backs against the sea. They will launch. Meaning they will take everybody with them.

During the 1972 War when Israel was being overrun by its Arab Neighbors. They went to a nuclear alert. It was only by the intervention of God that Israel did not use nuclear weapons.

In Gulf War 1 Saddam Hussein was launching scud missiles at Israel. Probably in at the strategy to destroy the invading Coalition coming against Iraq at the time. The concern of George Bush and Caspar Weinberger was that Israel would retaliate by using nuclear weapons. There was a lot of arm-twisting that begged Israel to not launch. Again God's intervention that nuclear weapons were not used.

Brethen I suggest we stop dealing in hypotheticals and wake up to the reality of the geopolitical events that are taking place today. The Middle East is a tinderbox ready to explode. And explosions may very well be in radioactive nuclear clouds. This is not fear-mongering. But this is the time in which we are living in.

Again to Our Hope must be in the Lord Jesus Christ. But let us come out from our keyboards and stop being hypothetical and start being realistic.

Brethren I say respectfully let's stop looking at 7O AD and come into 2016. We are living in a dangerous world. And one that could very well give itself over to nuclear war.

Again we must look up for our Redemption is Drawing Near. But I also exhort you to educate yourself in current events and the geopolitical Dynamics that are happening in today's

My thoughts respectfully posted.

Brother Blaine

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Those Iranian missiles they tested had the words written on them:

"Israel must be wiped out" (the "little Satan" in their Islamic religion/apocalyptic eschatology, with the USA being "the great satan").

Iran also released through their top brigadier general commanders the boasting comments yesterday that they aren't abiding by ANY agreements, sanctions, etc. & boasting that "the Zionist regime will be destroyed" & that they "have 10x the missile arsenal of Hezzbollah". It's common knowledge that Hezbelloah has 100,000 missiles. That means they are boasting that they have 1,000,000 missiles & that Israel (& the USA) are their enemies for which they intend these missiles.

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Jeff, speaking hypothetically of course. Lol :-)

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dolfan Mar 10, 2016

Seems to me one of several things is true:

1. We're all (all!) badly wrong. A nagging suspicion lurks inside me that this is likely, and it distresses me a great deal. Why? Because, if we are wrong about the time of the end given so much Scripture, what else are we wrong about? How can we BE so wrong? Yet, it seems most likely. Not as distressing, though as #2.

2. We are Scripturally blind. Sounds a lot like #1, eh? The difference is that #1 is less blindness and more mystery (God conceals the truth on the eschaton), whereas this #2 point attests that the Word is sufficiently clear for us to know all that God intends for us to know yet we just don't know it. This is more distressing than #1 because we are culpable but probably not curable. Seems almost as likely to me as #1, but my prayer is that, by God's grace, we are not --- this.

3. We are neither blind nor is God hiding anything from us, but we are deceived. This accounts for the plethora of the varieties of "pre"-s, posts, mids, "a"-s, etc. None of us really knows whether to trim our teeth or brush our nails, but we really have some honest, humble, prayed-over, good sounding reasons lined up for and against both. Of course, we can't all be right even if some of us are. This is disheartening because we want to know why God would let some of us err, and why He won't just tell us. I don't know about you, but I have an opinion on what I think is right and I'm completely willing to trade that for knowledge of the truth no matter what it does to my opinions. (If the amillenialists are right, may the Holy Spirit PLEASE have mercy on me and bring me to repentance so I can quit being such an untransformed stiff-necked rebel against God and go about salting and lighting the world with random acts of kindness and holding the door open for little old ladies and extending one pinky with a fish ring on it while I drink a Cab and nod at whatever Andy Stanley says. I'd just like to get over myself already if they're right, and get on to whatever it is that God really is doing, etc. I'm weary of wondering and wearier of being a dolt in Jesus' name.)

4. We're neither blind, being held in mystery nor are we stupid/deceived, but we are selfish. We have pet theories and we are missing the point, missing the truth, because we love our own ideas of who God is and what He's doing and how He's doing it rather than just laying it all down and letting Him do it. This would startle me in some degree and I don't want it to be true. But, it is a truth about the world generally as it rejects Jesus -- it is full of all sorts of pagan ideas that won't get surrendered for gospel truth and living. We may just be no different right here on this part of the faith. Pray that's not so.

J
JFW Mar 10, 2016

Boom!

And how about a #5.... an all of the above (for each of us) in one degree or another on differing issues.
It weighs on my heart too dear brother and all too often the Lord has had to chasten me to convince me to let go of what I wanted to be true and accept His truth. Once not too long ago I had inquired of the Lord on the trinity as there are varying views on this too and He straight up told me I wasn't ready for His truth (which was like a gut punch) but that if I'd just continue to follow Him, He would bring me to a place where I could accept what He has to show me. It was very humbling and yet fueled a hunger in me for His righteousness whereas I had been fuled by the desire to "be right".
May we all strive to maintain unity in the faith~

T
TMK Mar 10, 2016

Tim- your post sums up exactly why trying to understand every mysterious prophetic passage is ultimately not a great idea There are enough passages that are clear to be getting on with.

Like AW Tozer said, it's not the scriptures I don't understand that worry me it's the scriptures I DO understand that worry me.

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

I'm with you Tim and TMK,

No one knows exactly how this world is going to end and what is important is how we are living and walking with God today (Lord teach us to number or days).

I firmly believe the OT prophets were given revelation of spiritual events and that they are not talking about physical events, regarding the end times. That is why everyone who tries to tie their prophecies to physical events will always get it wrong. Just like Israel in Jesus' day got it wrong looking for solely natural events they missed the spiritual nature and reason for the physical events that did occur.

Looking around today I can see why men are bound to the natural. I think the true story is right in front of our nose and thankful that this helped clear it up for me.

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/revel.html

It really helps you to not be moved by all the sensationalism abounding, today.

2 Peter 1:16-17

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

1 Peter 4:7-10

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Use hospitality one to another without grudging.

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Julius, brother respectively think about what are saying. If the Old Testament prophets were only given spiritual revelations of things to come. Then we would have to say that the birth of Jesus was spiritual and not physical. We would have to say that the death of Jesus was spiritual and not physical. We would have to say that the resurrection of Jesus was spiritual and not physical.

In a sense we would have to say that Jesus fulfilling all 330 sone odd prophecies of the Old Testament was spiritual and not physical.

Just throwing out some things for consideration bro.

Brother Blaine

B
brothagary Mar 10, 2016

Let God be true and let every man be a liar.....

We will fined out soon that we will all be wrong on our theolighys ,and only God and his word are inflalable....

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Bear, I made sure I mentioned prophecies concerning the end times, not the over 200 prophecies concerning Jesus.

Bear, you probably have never read Jim Fowler's teaching on Revelation. Would be an eye opener for you.

What Gary said is right.

sermonindex Mar 10, 2016

Julius you can't separate one from the other. If we believe that the OT prophecies of Jesus actually occurred in a space-time context. It would be readonable to assume that prophecies which speak of the end times are also going to occur in a space-time context.

God does not speak to us ethereal realities. But speaks to us in spiritual truth that invades our space-time context.

My thoughts.

Brother Blaine

sermonindex Mar 11, 2016

Bear,

We know that we are living in the only day and time when a person can look toward Jesus Christ in faith and be saved. Would you agree?

This is the dispensation of the Church made up of both Jews and Gentiles where Christ has made us one in Him. Both Jews and Gentiles are being saved in the dispensation of the Church. Not one, but both.

If there was yet another dispensation in which men have yet another chance to be saved, don't you think it would be talked about greatly in the NT?

Yet Jude never mentions it. James and Luke never mention out. And I would look for more than a mention, too. There should have been whole books of the bible written on this new dispensation of another salvation era.

Peter did not write about it and neither did Paul or John.

So, where are the scriptures on the new dispensation of salvation different than this one? It should be a fully developed teaching.

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