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A few comments about past revivals

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docs Mar 21, 2016

Historically, when Americans began the great westward movement of the nineteenth century, the Holy Spirit had to devise a way of reaching a fast-moving populace. The answer was evangelism in "sawdust and tears" revivals. Preachers reduced the gospel to the simplest, most essential matters for conversion - "Hit them with a just and angry God and drive them into the arms of a loving Jesus" - preach guilt and repentance and bring them to the altar to receive forgiveness and the new birth. There is nothing wrong with that. By it the Lord converted a nation! Revival preaching is needed all the more as our nation falls further into sin in an anti-christ culture.

But that "reduced gospel" was not intended to tell the whole story, and it could not. It said little or nothing about the continuing struggle to sanctify the heart. In the siteenth century, Ignatius Loyola founded the Jesuit order, which ignited and carried the greatest missionary effort ever in the history of Christianity. Loyola taught and applied tough disciplines for sanctification after conversion, sayiing of St. Francis Xavier, "The lumpiest lump of dough I ever kneaded."

Benedictines also established and followed a "rule of life" for sanctification after conversion. (Some Protestants need to beware of making judgments here. Read about these men. You'll find they were truly born anew!) John Wesley founded the Methodist Church, so named because its adherents insisted upon a "method" of sanctification after conversion. Wesley's followers were among the leaders of the Great Awaikening in America during the eighteenth century.

Benedictines also established and followed a "rule of life" for sanctification aftyer conversion. (Some Protestants need to beware of making judgments here. Read about these men. You'll find they were truly born anew!) John Wesley founded thwe Methodist Church, so named because the adherents insisted upon a "method" of sanctification after conversion. Wesley's followers were among the leaders of the Great Awakening in America during the eighteenth century. All these men knew the fulness of the gospel. They knew the need to bring the continuing roots of sinfulness to death on the cross long after we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior.

But during the second great awakening in America, during the nineteenth century, generations of Christians received nothing but the "reduced gospel." Sunday after Sunday, they heard only evangelism preached. Many m,en responded to the call of God, picked up thier Bibles and went out to preach - without benefit of education. We intend no judgment here; the Lord needed and called them. But most knew little beyond the "reduced Gospel!" They did not know the Church's acculuated knowledge and wisdom for dealing with the pesky practices of the old nature after conversion.

Thinking they were totally neew creatures and thier born-anew parishoners ought likewise to be able to walkl rightly in Chrisit, they laid on heavy exhortations: "You are new creatures, now live up to it! Do it! Just try harder!" Though their parishioners were new positionally new creatures, they continued to be plagued by unholy passions which kept springing up and from undead roots! The could not do it.

Exhortation only threw them into fleshly striving. Then, in their determination to be holy, many fell into the dynamic described above, until cycles of suppression and expression either forced them into sin or drove them into lives of quiet despair. (Some, wiser and humbler, broke free from the cycle and found true peace in Christ, but I wish the reader could sit in my office and listen to the defeated, confused life-stories I hear, all because so many Christians have not heard of the gospel of sanctification after conversion!)

Taken from "Why Some Christians Commit Adultery - Causes and Cures" - by John Sandford - copyright 1989.

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docs Mar 21, 2016

Historically, during the Second Great Awakening, many evangelists began to elevate the conversion experience beyond what the Scripture claims for it. Conversion does have tremendous impact; it changes our direction from hell to heaven. It washes all our sins away in the blood of Christ. It deals our sin nature a death blow. It effects many immediate, dramatic changes in our personality and character (which, sadly, helps to convince us that we are totally and forever different. It imbues us with the Holy Spirit and renews our own spirit. It restores us to sonship and grants us access to the heart of God through prayer. It changes the angel guard from Satan's to the Lord's (Heb 1:14; Ps 91:11). It makes us new creatures in Christ (II Cor 5:17). But it does not end the process of sanctification and transformation; it begins it!

Preachers and teachers soon began to elevate the conversion experience as though it did everything once for all. "Come down here to this altar, and you'll be a totally newe creature forever!" In one respect, that call is true. The tragedy is that it omits the daily work thereafter of crucifying the flesh

"Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for thier salvation. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accoradance with knowledge. For not knowing about God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Rom 10;1-4)

A cruel irony is that many Christians who have used this scripture to convert unbelievers have failed to see that it applies equally to born-again Christians who, without the discipline of daily crucifixion, err in thinking they are, "totally new creatures forever" and so try to live righteously by the failing strength of their own flesh! When we believe the false theology that our conversion "does it" once for all, we no longer use prayer to crucify resurrected flesh daily - and are thereby rediuced to striving to live like Christ without the grace of the cross! "...for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death ther deeds of the body, you will ive" (Rom 8:13).

I'm sure that most of the leaders I know about who fell were convinced that their conversion exxperiences had made them toally new creatures. Positionally, that was true. "For by one offering, He has perfected for all time those who were sanctified" (Heb 10:14), and "it is finished" (John 19:30). But St. Paul was wise enough to know that though our flesh was slain, it can come back to life, "See to it...thsat no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled." (Heb 12:15)

Taken from "Why Some Christians Commit Adultery - Causes and Cures" - copyright 1989.

I dont know al of the answers to these comments and thoughts which are somewhat boat rocking. I know though that I can trace some of the problems I have had in trying to walk in greater sanctification and cast off and put away the sins that still beset me was because I had been told that, "Once you are born again all those things will disappear. You won't have to wrry about them any longer."

How does all of this fiot into our notion of and and the modern practice of revivial?

Comments welcome.

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

"Benedictines also established and followed a "rule of life" for sanctification aftyer conversion. (Some Protestants need to beware of making judgments here. Read about these men. You'll find they were truly born anew!)"

The ignorance of non Catholics have ceased to amaze me anymore. As an ex-catholic, born and raised Catholic in a family that is Catholic all the way back through the generations, the above statement is nonsense and typical of what you often here nowadays. Let me just say this as simply as I know how, there is no " salvation," in the Catholic church prior to sanctification. One must be, according to this non biblical organization, sanctified before one can be justified. This is simply the truth and exposes the above statement as simple ignorance of the Catholic faith. The Catholic faith does not even have a concept of " getting saved." If one says one is saved within the Catholic church then an anathema is pronounced over the head of one who would have the audacity to make such a claim. An anathema is a curse. The idea behind it that no one knows if they are saved. There is no assurance of salvation which is why you need the sacraments and even then you may not " make it." Sorry docs, these are simply that facts, not from " some protestant," but from a multi-generational Catholic who was raised in the Catholic church, who had a Catholic education, who was married by the church and said church buried his first son.

I believe in sanctification and the process of it. Lets not confuse the issue by throwing Catholic theologians into the mix who do not even believe a person can even hope to enter heaven unless they are sanctified, the exact opposite of the truth. This is why the teaching of sola fide was the nail that was hammered into the heart of Catholicism by Luther and the reformers along with sola scriptura............bro Frank

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

oh mercy me.

"any comments?", and I see a can with worms, and ye just opened it!

I don't see HOW anyone could disagree with what you just penned, seeing that YOU were gloriously set free from the jail of rome, and my heart grieves for God's precious children STILL entrapped in that dark and fell religious institution.

you spoke Truth, period, end of sentence.
much love, neil

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docs Mar 21, 2016

I understand your comments and thought of not adding those comments of the author but the author said them so I just included them. I was also going to add a footnote at the end of my post and say that the part about the Bendictines etc. is probably controversial and I understand why and hope this one snippet may be not worth a lot of fuss because there is a lot more to the thoughts in my opinion than just this. If we talk about that part we can also speak of some of the other points. Like, why do so many who follow Luther per chance and believe in sola scriptura and sola fide still many times end up unable to conquer certain sins? There's a lot to speak of there I think and I was wondering why the fruit of so many revivals, good as it is, many times doesn't last for many because many dramatically converted end up snared again whether soon after or even many years later.

Over all, I agree with your comments though. I just didn't add a footnote saying such.

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

God love you David Winter.

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

Hi David, I appreciate that :) As I said, I believe in sanctification and the process of it and how it is so often " messy." It can be one step forward and then suddenly two steps back. I like to look at a brother or a sisters whole life, what is the thrust of their life over the years they have been saved. Are they " further on," than they were five years out, ten years out from salvation. Have they became " settled," Christians as opposed to continual God seekers. The process of sanctification to me is directly related to the hunger and thirst of the believer for God Himself and His presence.

I do not believe that one who was dramatically saved has any real advantage in this area than those who were less dramatically saved ( I actual believe all genuine salvation is dramatic) Although, having said that, there is a certain woman who sat at the feet of Jesus and washed His feet with her tears. The reason for such passion? Jesus said it was because she was forgiven much that she loved much and in the truly dramatic cases of conversion I have found that to be generally true. And when I say dramatic in that sense I am thinking of those who have come out of very dark worldly background like alcohol and drugs and violence and non church back ground as opposed to the " excitement," of a tent meeting where one or many come forward in a moment of a heightened emotional atmosphere and many of them having church back-grounds. Not to say of course that many were not genuinely saved in that fashion but their lives lived out is a much better indicator than numbers counted of those who went forward at a meeting. God bless you David..........bro Frank

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docs Mar 21, 2016

I was raised in 1950s 1960s style Catholicism myself. A peculiar thing happened to me as I pondered my entrance into the kingdom of God. I realized one has to be born again and saved!

PTL!

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Renee_is_His Mar 21, 2016

Yes, that would be me...saved from the depths of Satan.
Had I been taught about sanctification, maybe I could have been saved from 11 years of backslidden-ness. But all things work together for good for those who love God. I, too, was led to believe that since I was saved, then I should have been able to quit everything I was doing. This is why discipleship is so important, in my opinion. It was the Holy Spirit that taught me about being crucified with Christ and sanctification, through his godly servants (Nee, Murray, and others)

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

"I was raised in 1950s 1960s style Catholicism myself. A peculiar thing happened to me as I pondered my entrance into the kingdom of God. I realized one has to be born again and saved! PTL!!!"

Praise the Lord brother. God can reach people even in gross darkness and bring him into His marvelous light. I praise God that literally millions upon millions of Catholics have found Jesus, the Son of the Living God. Found Him in His reality and that reality changed everything for them. Willing to leave behind centuries of traditions and ties and follow Him alone. This was the call to every Jewish man and woman 2000 years ago. Jesus stood on mountains and hills and cried out a message from God the Father. He stood up in the Temple and announced that He had come to heal the brokenhearted, that He had come to set at liberty the captives. He had come to break the chains of tradition and religion and to beckon His followers to follow Him into the light and the glory and liberty of God. And He who the Son set free were free indeed. In every decade and in every century He has been setting the captives free and bringing them into the heart of the Father. For those who are willing to forsake all and take up their crosses and follow Him, they find glorious freedom and the beauty of holiness.

Lord we just cry out today for every singe soul trapped within the confines of religion in all its many guises. May their hearts be open to hear you Lord as you are still crying out to them and beckoning them to come out of babylon, come out from everything that is unclean and come into your marvelous light............bro Frank

sermonindex Mar 21, 2016

Is not sanctification of work of the Holy Spirit?

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docs Mar 22, 2016

If we do not have a prolonged, old-fashioned revival, I believe this nation and the world are doomed! I say "old-fashioned" because the revivals of previous centuries carried with them fulsome repentance. They effected a return to moral and holy life-styles sadly missing in what passes for revival today. Somehow our conversion experiences seem to lack the shuddering lack of revulsion against sin which stirred those who earlier fled to the altar of God.

The 1910 revival in Wales so changed the miners that the beasts hauling the ore cars wouldn't budge - they no longer heard the cursing they had come to associate with orders. At the same time, police in many American cities suddenly had so little to do, they formed barbershop quartets to pass the time. Those revivals changed the moral character of entire regions. Unfortunantely, that is not so today.

Several years ago, Elijah House conducted a seminar on sexual problems. Every participant was born-anew. To open the proceedings, we handed out a survey list of forty-three questions. The participants were assured that total anonymity would protect the honesty of their answers. Among other questions, we asked whether they had committed fornication before marriage, and/or adultery afterwards. Over 50 percent admitted to fornication, the same for adultery; and most confessed to having committed both. Then we asked how many had committed the same sins after being born anew. Over 40 percent! That meant that belief in Christ had only effected a ten percent improvement in moral behavior! In similar surveys since then the results have been the same. Somehow the holiness of our Lord Jesus Christ has not yet come to abide in the hearts of many of today's born-anew Christians!

There must come a weeping before God and a crying out for true revival which can truly change the hearts of those who respond. As a counselor I know and teach that there must, after conversion, be a time of sanctification by daily death on the cross, but I also know unless their hearts are truly repentant and seeking to be made like Christ, men and women will not undergo the cost in pain to ferret out sin and die to it.

There must come a breaking. There must come a fire of love so deep that men can no longer stand to disgrace the Lord who loves them. There must be a move of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men so powerful and direct that they will moan with the weight of their sins and cry out in agony to be changed or die. There must be born a hatred of sin so compelling that men would rather give up life itself than do anything to dishonor the Name and the Law of God.

Put in the simplest of terms, our revivals in this day have lacked the "fire-power" to truly change the hearts of men. We have been like barkers in a side show, or like candy-store merchants, offering whatever goodies might entice people to receive Jesus. Too many have come to Jesus for what they can get, rather than for the love and honmor due to Him who saved us from hell. Though the ineffectiveness of conversions today is not the historical cause for sin among Christians - the shallowness is itself an effect of the other causes - nevertheless I believe true revival is the only answer - only a sufficently powerful move of the Spirit upon the hearts of men can grant them the inner strength to bear the cost of real change! Earlier revivals carried that depth. Perhaps herein lies the greatest historical change which has resulted in born-anew Christians continuing in sin as though they never had been reborn - their conversion has never yet become that deep and real!

Taken from "Why Some Christians Commit Adultery - Cause and Cures" - by John Sandford - copyright 1989.

sermonindex Mar 22, 2016

That does beg a question though. Are we called to weep and wail over our sins? For sure if our hearts are under conviction there will be weeping. But according to Hebrews 12 are we not called to put off our sins and those things that encumber us. And simply to run the race with our eyes fixed on Jesus?

sermonindex Mar 22, 2016

Hi David, interesting post. Men like Tozer and Ravenhill identified this problem decades ago. Cheap grace leads to anemic believers and anemic believers reproduce anemic converts and the more generations that pass in this process then the more diluted Christendom becomes. Watered down and watered down to a point where the world has much more influence over believers and the Churches.

Solution? I do not believe there is a solution. I have very deliberately been writing to what I call the remnant over the last several years. I started doing this after a very disturbing vision from the Lord. To me the remnant are simply what used to be fairly normal passionate Christians. The reason I do not believe their is a solution is because I believe that judgment has begun and it starts at the house of the Lord or at least with those who claim to be the house of the Lord but are actually of the synagogue of Satan as Jesus put it in Revelations.

With Christ at the door and the great falling away in full flow, then next will come the great whore church. She is a defiling entity and all the world will be enamoured of her. The great religions of the world will morph into this entity but obviously not the Lord's own, His remnant, His true and genuine child. This will incur the wrath of all the nations against the saints.

So, I do not believe we will see the great revivals of the past where regions are effected. Men and women will still be getting saved, radically saved, but they will be few and far between and will be totally overshadowed by the anemic cheap grace religionists whose converts will be as equally anemic and will fill stadiums...............bro Frank

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