I believe Paul Washer still commands respect in this forum. A few years ago the brother gave a very sobering message warning us about the reality of persecution coming up on the American Church.
Yet what I hear coming from this forum is that persecution in America is non-existent. Indeed I think what I'm hearing is that persecution is not going to come upon the United States.
So my question is did Paul Washer get it wrong?
Blaine
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Bear- I don't think he is wrong.
But I do think something major will have to happen first- like a bunch of "Christian" terrorists committing some horrible act of destruction and claiming God told them to do it. It would have to be so bad that people would fear Christians as much as they do radical muslims.
Refusing to perform SSM will not be a sufficient catalyst.
By the way- if you could provide a link to his message I'd appreciate it.
Hi Todd, here is an alternative scenario to your view that some kind of Christian terrorists would have to be involved to cause persecution against the saints. I wrote it a couple of years ago but for what it is worth, here it is.........
This subject can be very difficult to approach today because there have been so many crazy people claiming when the end of the world would happen. The below scenario reckons on the saints going through the great tribulation. Therefore there is no particular day or hour that is looked for, rather a season, birth pangs if you like. We are told by Jesus that we should be able to discern the signs of the times, not the day nor the hour of His return. In any event, most peoples of the world and the church have a difficult time imagining a time where Christians would be hunted down and killed for the mere fact of being Christian. They may be able to imagine this in a Muslim world setting, but not in the West. I do not claim that the scenario below is prophetic, I merely wish to show you a logical procession of events that could lead to a world-wide persecution of the true saints.
I think we may all agree that Jesus is coming relatively soon. Where we may disagree is on the subject of rapture. Lets assume there is no rapture and Jesus is coming soon, then the saints will go through the great tribulation. The Scriptures tells us that it will be worse than anything that has ever happened before in history, in fact the Lord must shorten those days for the elects sake or we would all be dead.
Just 70 years ago, in the heart of educated and cultured Europe, in a country that pronounced itself to be Christian, an evil man arose and in six short years, killed six million Jews for the mere fact of being Jewish. He shoved them into gas chambers and then burned them in furnaces, men, woman and children, sparing none. Now this is not some Biblical genocide from the ancient world, this is something that happened just 70 years ago. Now what kind of events would need to unfold for the world to turn on Christians and for there to be a coming together of the world religions into one religion?
Lets say tomorrow there is an attack by Muslim extremists on multiple cities. New York, Washington, London, Paris Rome and Moscow are hit simultaneously with nuclear suitcase bombs. Rather than the three thousand dead of 9/11, there is one hundred thousand dead in each city. The world is repulsed and is brought together because of this great tragedy. Fundamentalists of all stripes are universally condemned and outlawed. To state publicly that there is only one true religion, only one way to heaven, becomes illegal. Such people are denounced as those who have caused all the troubles in the world. They are seen as a cancer on society which society must rid itself of.
So society gives them a chance to renounce such believes. At the same time, the major religions of the world have a summit. Islam, Christianity and the Jewish faith come together for a summit in Rome. Pope Francis leads the summit because he is universally respected. When the meeting is over they announce that they can all trace their roots back to Abraham. That they all worship the same God just in different ways. They announce that there are multiple roads to heaven and that to say otherwise is merely hate speech. They agree to drop Jesus and Mohammed from their literature and only speak in terms of God and His prophets, agreeing to stand upon what they agree on and bringing a historic unity that will usher in a new day, a new order for the world where there is equality for all.
The vast majority of the world hail this and rejoice in it. A small minority resist it and in the shadow of the multiple hundreds and thousands of deaths, the world hates them with a perfect hatred. They hate them more than the Germans hated the Jews. The minority cannot find work and are ultimately arrested for continuing to ” share the Gospel.” While they are a minority, they are still in the millions and camps are set up to imprison them because the prison system cannot contain them. An ever-growing hatred by the general public and resentment that they have to be fed and kept eventually leads to the decision to make it a capital offense punishable by death to be a fundamental Christian.......bro Frank
I think to some degree we are already seeing some of what you wrote here Bro Frank. Bits and pieces of it anyway.
Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Here is the SermonIndex YouTube link for the Paul Washer clip:
https://youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=C7UyZYpeReY
Transcript: "The church in America is going to suffer so terribly and you laugh now but they will come after us, they will come after our children, they will close the net around us while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad, when weÂ’re arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear. You will be isolated from society as has already happened, anyone who tries to run for office who actually believes the Bible will be considered a lunatic until finally we are silenced. We will be called things that weÂ’re not and persecuted not for being followers of Christ, but for being radical fundamentalists who do not know the true way of Christ, which of course is love and tolerance. WeÂ’ll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history. TheyÂ’'ve already come after your children and for most of you they got them. They got them through the public schools and indoctrination in the University and indoctrination and then you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. ItÂ’s because you fed them right into the devilÂ’'s mouth.
So, little by little the net is closing around and then itÂ’s not little by little. Look how fast things are going downhill just in a matter of weeks, matter of weeks; but at the same time know this: persecution is always meant for evil, but God always means it for good. And is it not better to suffer in this life to have an extra weight of glory in Heaven? You must settle this in your mind, this is the one thing I want to say over and over: Do not believe...down through history you have a wrong idea of martyrdom and persecution, you think that these men were persecuted and martyred for their sincere faith in Jesus Christ, that was the real reason, but no one heard that publicly. They were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state, as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society. Your suffering will not be noble, so your mind must be filled with the Word of God when all people persecute you and turn on you and if the Spirit of God and common grace pulls back and you see even your children and your grandchildren tossing in the lot that you should die. This is no game.
You want revival and awakening, but know this, for the most part great awakenings have come only preceding great national catastrophes [of?] the persecution of the church. I believe God is bringing a great awakening but I believe that He is raising up young men who are strong in trust in the providence of God to be able to wade through the hell thatÂ’s going to break loose on us and it will be on us before we even recognize it; unless, unless in GodÂ’s providence He is not done, He is not done. And no[te?], this is, this is not silly talk. Apart from great awakening, these things are going to come upon you. Be ready to lose your homes, your cars, and everything."
by awakened on 2016/3/25 20:09:16Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Jesus was killed because He confronted the religious ruling class. His teaching threatened them. His boldness and refusal to conform to them angered them.
I don't see that happening today. You have to do a little more than to just call yourself a Christian.
Christians will be fine in their church buildings obeying whatever the state tells them.
No, he was not wrong.
I know true Holy Spirit inspired prophetic unction when I see/discern it. That was one of those "prophetic words" moments. Saw David Wilkerson move in that before too. Others have been & are prophesying even now similarly. He wasn't wrong. The Lords timing & what He means by what He has one share & what we think can be slightly different, but I believe that to be of the Lord when he shared that. For sure
I admit that I waver some on it. I just don't know for sure.
Most of the time I am of the mind of Paul Washer's statement.
But, the church has been around this Jericho many, many times and the walls of the order of the age still stand.
Things change, and then they don't. Seriously, I can't see where the governments of the world are anywhere close to becoming the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ. So, amillenialism explains nothing, premillenialism explains nothing and postmillennialism never really did. :)
If something is going to happen soon, cataclysmic change will have to occur suddenly. I know that's a nice setup for someone to come in and say, "Yeah, that's called the rapture." Okay, have at it, but I'm not buying that explanation either.
Nope. I'm afraid we're going to be set up for a disappointment when none of the things we expect are going to unfold in any way resembling what we've believed and understood. This world is an absolute disaster with no prospects of improvement, and where hope of improvement exists it is the product of delusional thought processes (the suppression of truth).
I think the changes that have happened in the last year are ASTOUNDING (Muslim refugee re displacement, Middle Eastern War, BRICS, Currency & Proxy wars, Supreme Court gay marriage case, exposure videos of Planned Parenthod trafficking baby parts, etc., etc.) & a "Suddenly" is coming like in the next matter of months.
Julias writes.....
"by Julius21 on 2016/3/25 20:18:02
by awakened on 2016/3/25 20:09:16Very well laid out brother Frank, I think this is a very plausible scenerio. Ultimately it comes down to control. Jesus was killed because the ruling religious class were afraid of losing their power. I think as you stated the same thing will happen after the anti-Christ comes to power. It would not surprise me if very few Christians see it coming. In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way.
Jesus was killed because He confronted the religious ruling class. His teaching threatened them. His boldness and refusal to conform to them angered them.
I don't see that happening today. You have to do a little more than to just call yourself a Christian.
Christians will be fine in their church buildings obeying whatever the state tells them. "
Julias, did you edit this reply? ..........bro Frank
Bro Mark writes
" In other words, that he hides his true agenda and only after some years (like Hitler) will he begin his master plan to exterminate anybody who stands in his way."
Great observation Mark, I think this is exactly how it will unfold, all the peoples of the world will be fooled by this, but not the true saints who have the witness of the Holt Spirit...........bro Frank
Sorry but I don't understand this "persecution is coming" stuff.... I say that in love and reality and from experience...I don't know how many people here work for a living and get out and have to make a living, but I do, and I praise the Lord for it.
Quickly, I've noticed this in my own life for years - the cast-down ones, the drug addicted, the "hopeless" as society calls them, are very pleasant people, although sinners, they see through phoniness; and when one cares and listens and helps them, the love and the appreciation they show is quite something. Now, on the other hand, the mockers and scoffers, or the "educated" I work with as well is to some extent the opposite. Back-biters, haters of God, as the apostle put it...Some try to make my life miserable at work...It is the spirit in them, for they walk in darkness, but praise the Lord, it is good training :D. Then, there are the many religious....well, that's a whole other story.
So persecution is coming....I don't get that...For when I came out of Egypt, I was put into the wilderness asap, and am being trained to turn the other cheek, rely on God for all good things, being poor but making others rich...i can go on and on, but it's bed time. Persecution comes, to me, from the proud and they're everywhere; but praise God, He's a blessed trainer the Holy Ghost is :) When I am weak, then am I strong
(Adding this short paragraph): Persecution against the saints has been here already since i stepped out for Christ, or should I say, He thrust me out into the world, Praise His Holy Name, and there's no adventure quite like it :)
Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, which meant His authority outweighed the religious leaders authority...and the people were beginning to believe it. The religious leaders didn't believe it though but with the people being drawn in, He became a huge threat to them. They feared that they and their system would become irrelevant and lose control over the common people...They also reasoned that He might lead a rebellion against Rome, which would have brought Rome down upon them and an end or at least a severe curtailment to their power in Israel.
But what does this mean practically for us? How does this relate to what is coming down the pike for believers in the west?
"For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the one who brings destruction. He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.”
I think it is very clear what is going to happen. This man of sin will come on the scene and exult himself and attempt to bring the whole world in subjection to him, to worship him as God. All practices and beliefs in the one True God will be outlawed, laws created and viciously enforced. This is how he will force the world to bow the knee to him...So that part is clear.
The real question is what will bring him to power? I think Frank has outlined this scenario well. As terrorism becomes a global epidemic and finally results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, there will be worldwide shock and a call to bring this to an end. This is when the one world government will be formed and the man of sin will quickly rise to power.
Ritchie writes.......
"Sorry but I don't understand this "persecution is coming" stuff."
Its okay not to understand stuff brother. God has different callings for different brothers and sisters, we cannot possibly understand everything.
God bless you in your adventure...........bro Frank
Bro Mark writes.....
"As terrorism becomes a global epidemic and finally results in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, there will be worldwide shock and a call to bring this to an end. This is when the one world government will be formed and the man of sin will quickly rise to power."
And also, Pope Francis and Mahmood Abbas and Shimon Peres met last year. They were seeking a spiritual solution to the worlds problems. They emerged from that meeting saying that what the world needs is a united nations of religion because most if not all of the conflict is religion based. Here is how it will probably unfold, the scenario we discussed and Mark catpures in the above paragraph happens. The leaders of the three main religions get together with their scribes and scholars They emerge telling us how we have the same foundation, we all have Abraham as our father.
We may call God by different names but He is the one same God. Lets unite over what we agree with and agree that we are all God's children and that there are many ways to heaven and they we must celebrate diversity rather than kill each other over it. They agree that the dome of the rock sits upon a site that is holy to all of them and they make this " holy place," the center of a new world religion that encompasses the brotherhood of man. All who oppose this are deemed as haters and a cancerous poison in society that must be dealt with in the most severest terms for the health of the world and the future of peace.
The world rejoices and bells toll all over the world that for the first time since Babel, the people of the world have come together and are working together for the greater good. And still this annoying minority/remnant are saying that although the world is proclaiming peace peace, they say there is no peace. And the hatred of the world is turned upon this " narrow minded hateful bigoted people." ........bro Frank
Brother Frank
What I don't understand about "persecution is coming" is the what is coming instead of the what is happening now, today.
Brother Paul Washer is indeed not wrong, nor others like Leonard Ravenhill, in warning what is coming upon the Earth. For God did speak through the Apostle John, and the prophets giving them visions and words to write down.
However, the Lord is His goodness, is preparing His people now... But I also see many who cannot even handle, by the grace of God, the smallest of persecutions now, and therefore for one to think they will be able to suffer righteously and sin not against the God of the Universe when even worse persecutions (like death and imprisonment, the taking of their lands, their bank accounts, etc) come, to me, is folly and self-delusional.
We live in great and wonderful times. The Lord has given us the means now to prepare for what is coming "tomorrow"...And therefore, if we donot use the means now, how will we maintain the end?
What comes to mind are many Scriptures... the parable of the 10 virgins, the unprofitable servant, etc....these are solemn things indeed. The good Lord giving His children space to repent...God being a jealous God indeed, and rightfully so; and then I see the professing church taken up with amusements, and building their own houses etc, while the "Lord's house" lies waste in the land...These are gut-wrenching to those that love God with all their hearts, souls, and minds to say the least.
The battle is now...Sure persecution is coming and has come, but now, now, is the blessed day God has given us by His grace to get out and make the difference and prepare ourselves for the wrath to come.
Just my "2 cents" bro Frank. Now is the time, now is the day of Salvation. To God be all glory and praise
Absolutely correct, Yeshua's boy.
You prepare for tomorrow by overcoming today and not being anxious or fearful about tomorrow.
Jesus told us not to be anxious about tomorrow, or worry about it. And how can you prepare for "what's coming", if you are not attending to and overcoming the "little" trials, today? They are not so little if they are overcoming us, right?
Those who are walking close to Christ are not obsessing about tomorrow, they are too busy fulfilling His will for today.
And do we really need men to keep telling us that gloom and doom are coming when the Word of God already tells us that all those who live in godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. One third of the NT talks about persecution. I think we get it (if we know the word). This is what overcomers have been made for. We overcome because of His life in us and therefore we should be concentrating on His life, Him. What the Church needs is not only the knowledge of Christ but faithfulness to Him. We have passed from death to life so we are dwelling in life now and should be about the Master's business of preaching the gospel, come what may. Sure would like to see more positive, annointed, overcoming, faith filled, posts.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. LET NOT YOUR HEART BE TROUBLED, NEITHER LET IT BE AFRAID.
Frank, your scenario may indeed come to pass.
Abraham after the flesh means nothing to the Believer and Jesus did not think it meant anything, either when the Pharisees brashly proclaimed that "We be Abraham's seed". Jesus enlightened them as to who their father really was.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Jesus had to explain to them that they are not doing the works of God.
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
What Paul the apostle was communicating to the church in Galatians is what is important. Only they which are of faith in Christ Jesus are the "children of Abraham". Jew or Gentile, makes no difference.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
So, if the 3 big religions get together and tell us to unite because we all have Abraham as our father after the flesh, a true Christian will say no, he is not my father after the flesh.
2Cor 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; BUT AS OF ONE, AND TO THY SEE WHICH IS CHRIST.
The promises were made to Abraham and to Christ then, (but as of one, and to thy seed, which is Christ), therefore if we belong to Christ then spiritually by faith, we are Abraham's seed.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
All the religions of the world, especially the big three are stuck in the physical because the natural man does not know the things of the spirit. Therefore, all that the natural man creates is only a counterfeit in the physical of the spiritual. Abraham is not our father after the flesh. We have all died to the things of the flesh. The three religions getting together will be a mass deception for the worldly church and many who have not left it, will be caught up in the deception.
Today is indeed the day of salvation (as Yeshuasboy indicated) and those who are overcoming TODAY will shine tomorrow no matter what comes.
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