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Mortifying. Desires

B
brothagary Mar 30, 2016

I was going over some writings of John of the cross ,I would like to get some feed back ,and weather you agree with this. It came from the the ascent of mtCarmel..................

5. For the mortifying and calming of the four natural passions, which are joy, hope, fear and grief, from the concord and pacification whereof come these and other blessings, the counsels here following are of the greatest help, and of great merit, and the source of great virtues.

6. Strive always to prefer, not that which is easiest, but that which is most difficult;

Not that which is most delectable, but that which is most unpleasing;

Not that which gives most pleasure, but rather that which gives least;

Not that which is restful, but that which is wearisome;

Not that which is consolation, but rather that which is disconsolateness;

Not that which is greatest, but that which is least;

Not that which is loftiest and most precious, but that which is lowest and most despised;

Not that which is197 a desire for anything, but that which is a desire for nothing;

Strive to go about seeking not the best of temporal things, but the worst.

Strive thus to desire to enter into complete detachment and emptiness and poverty, with respect to everything that is in the world, for Christ’s sake.

7. And it is meet that the soul embrace these acts with all its heart and strive to subdue its will thereto. For, if it perform them with its heart, it will very quickly come to find in them great delight and consolation, and to act with order and discretion.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

Hi Gary,

Jesus makes it much simpler. He says, love Me with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and He gives us His Spirit (rather than detailed rules) to lead us and guide us as to how to love Him and walk with Him.

The thing about adopting men's rules is that it's like weight lifting, you are always looking in the mirror to see how YOU are developing and invariably you begin to look at others with the same critical eye, thinking they should be doing the same thing because it is making your outside man look good. If we walked in love with the Lord and towards others, then we don't even think about this stuff, we are too busy concentrating on Him.

Better to concentrate more on what is inside the cup than what the cup looks like. The substance is much better than the form.

T
TMK Mar 30, 2016

I don't even know what those statements mean. It sounds like a miserable life to me.

Should I turn my garden with a hand trowel rather than a spade? It would definitely be more wearisome. Should I eat liver (yuck) rather than chicken because it will bring me less pleasure?

I don't see any indication in scripture that our lives are supposed to be miserable.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

Double post.

Amen TMK,

Our life with God is about heart attitudes and Paul shows us the balance.

Philippians 4:11-14
Not that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content. I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Philippians 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

S
savannah Mar 30, 2016

For if we are to live, we must use the necessary supports of life; nor can we even shun those things which seem more subservient to delight than to necessity. We must therefore observe a mean, that we may use them with a pure conscience, whether for necessity or for pleasure. This the Lord prescribes by his word, when he tells us that to his people the present life is a kind of pilgrimage by which they hasten to the heavenly kingdom.

If we are only to pass through the earth, there can be no doubt that we are to use its blessings only in so far as they assist our progress, rather than retard it. Accordingly, Paul, not without cause, admonishes us to use this world without abusing it, and to buy possessions as if we were selling them, (1 Cor. 7:30, 31.) But as this is a slippery place, and there is great danger of falling on either side, let us fix our feet where we can stand safely.

There have been some good and holy men who, when they saw intemperance and luxury perpetually carried to excess, if not strictly curbed, and were desirous to correct so pernicious an evil, imagined that there was no other method than to allow man to use corporeal goods only in so far as they were necessaries: a counsel pious indeed, but unnecessarily austere; for it does the very dangerous thing of binding consciences in closer fetters than those in which they are bound by the word of God.

Moreover, necessity, according to them, was abstinence from every thing which could be wanted, so that they held it scarcely lawful to make any addition to bread and water. Others were still more austere, as is related of Cratetes the Theban, who threw his riches into the sea, because he thought, that unless he destroyed them they would destroy him.

Many also in the present day, while they seek a pretext for carnal intemperance in the use of external things, and at the same time would pave the way for licentiousness, assume for granted, what I by no means concede, that this liberty is not to be restrained by any modification, but that it is to be left to every man’s conscience to use them as far as he thinks lawful. I indeed confess that here consciences neither can nor ought to be bound by fixed and definite laws; but that Scripture having laid down general rules for the legitimate uses we should keep within the limits which they prescribe.

Let this be our principle, that we err not in the use of the gifts of Providence when we refer them to the end for which their author made and destined them, since he created them for our good, and not for our destruction. No man will keep the true path better than he who shall have this end carefully in view.

Now then, if we consider for what end he created food, we shall find that he consulted not only for our necessity, but also for our enjoyment and delight. Thus, in clothing, the end was, in addition to necessity, comeliness and honour; and in herbs, fruits, and trees, besides their various uses, gracefulness of appearance and sweetness of smell. Were it not so, the Prophet would not enumerate among the mercies of God "wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine,” (Ps. civ. 15.)

The Scriptures would not everywhere mention, in commendation of his benignity, that he had given such things to men. The natural qualities of things themselves demonstrate to what end, and how far, they may be lawfully enjoyed. Has the Lord adorned flowers with all the beauty which spontaneously presents itself to the eye, and the sweet odour which delights the sense of smell, and shall it be unlawful for us to enjoy that beauty and this odour? What? Has he not so distinguished colours as to make some more agreeable than others? Has he not given qualities to gold and silver, ivory and marble, thereby rendering them precious above other metals or stones? In short, has he not given many things a value without having any necessary use?

Have done, then, with that inhuman philosophy which, in allowing no use of the creatures but for necessity, not only maliciously deprives us of the lawful fruit of the divine beneficence, but cannot be realised without depriving man of all his senses, and reducing him to a block.

But, on the other hand, let us with no less care guard against the lusts of the flesh, which, if not kept in order, break through all bounds, and are, as I have said, advocated by those who, under pretence of liberty, allow themselves every sort of license. John C.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

That's a great post, Savannah.

Your post shows that there are always two extremes of the spectrum, and yet, there is always a balance in the many aspects of the Christian life.

For spirit-filled men, still living in an earthly temple, it can be difficult at times to find the balance, but God is faithful and will lead us into all truth.

A man who knew the Lord quite well, wrote this:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

Thanks Gary. John never taught asceticism but he knew how easily we become apathetic and how useful it is to keep ourselves awake and centred on Christ alone waiting for Him to deliver us from the flesh so that we can walk as He walked.

Comfort is our enemy.

I believe that God gave things to use as a condolence to those who do not seek Him first. To the others the world means nothing.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016


There is much to learn from Saints who choose to suffer and take the way of the cross. Did not our Lord tell us that His disciples are those who take the cross.

Peter the apostle says that we must choose to suffer: Therefore, since Christ suffered for us[a] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. - 1 Peter 4:1-2

Paul shared with his co-worker timothy: share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, - 2 timothy 1:8

Moses followed this way of suffering: "choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin," Hebrews 11:25

We are to follow in this way of mortification BY THE SPIRIT:

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds,
- Colossians 3:5-9

E
elected Mar 30, 2016

Mortification of selfishness, self-will, self-pleasure, self-confidence and of every deed of the flesh is something necessary in our spiritual growth in grace and the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Paul said to crucify the flesh with its passions and desires, that's the only way to live in the Spirit and not in the flesh.


sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

Yes, elected. Isn't it wonderful that as we sow to the Spirit, walking in love and keeping our eyes on Jesus that the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled? In effect, by walking after the spirit, we accomplish many other things. How wise is our God!!

The order is important.

Sow to the Spirit and you won't fulfill the desires of the flesh.

Not, "mortify the flesh and you will be walking after the spirit."Not usually true, because our emphasis in on ourselves and not the Lord.

T
TMK Mar 30, 2016

Excellent point, J.

E
elected Mar 30, 2016

Hi Julius,


Maybe we mean the same thing but use different terms. To be a disciple of Jesus we are called to deny ourselves and pick up our cross and follow the Lord. It means to crucify the old adamic self, so that not my old self but Christ will live in me. Our old man has already been crucified on the Cross with Jesus but from the experimential point of view we need to appropriate by faith that truth and put on Christ daily.

sermonindex Mar 30, 2016

I am sure just like a gem with many facets, we are saying the same thing but showing different facets of the same gem. Salvation is certainly like a gem with many facets and it is always good to see the gem from many sides. Gives you a fuller, more balanced picture of the truth.

B
brothagary Mar 31, 2016

To be fair Julius , we all have rules to follow is some thing we all do to inhance our walk with God ,,some people like wilkinson do not watch tv ,some people do not take a drop of alcohol and so on ,some people like washer do not go to the mall, some don't gamble at all ,,al these are rules like not eating fine foods and not take the easy comfortable way out ,,,and men would argue that it is because they love God they do these things ,and to be honest this may have nothing to do the outward amperence ,but striving for inner peace ,unless you've read what these men like John of the cross teach then your obviously misinterpreting their goal and reasons for doing what they do generally speaking ......

We all no about mortafing the flesh and its passions and desires ,,what they seem to teaching ,is an extreamly heigh level f mortification ,,,and if tozer is wright about these men being godly and correct ,then we are all wrong and falling far short of a deep and perfect union with God ,

I know when we fast and pray for certaint seasons ,we up the anti but it seems as if some of these saints press in so much harder ...

Now that's if there are speaking truth about acteacisim ,and if tozer is right about them ,,,,,,,


Or they are just deceived by the Devil ,, or we are for wanting to play church and talking about God all the time in stead ...

sermonindex Mar 31, 2016

I would have to agree with the argument that asceticism is not the way. It's like suffering/persecution: we are not seek it out! But we are to "choose" it. In other words, we are not to run away from suffering, loss, persecution at the expense of the Gospel & carrying our cross. But we are also not to "seek it out" as some self-denying masochistic self-inflicted suffering either. This is the monk/monestary mentality of Ghandi, the Buddhist monks, the Amish, etc.

So one extreme is to refuse to embrace a cross of suffering the Lord has given us when faced with that choice for His Names sake. The other extreme is to go out & look for crosses to pick up & bear as burdens the Lord never even called/requires us to (asceticism). Both are unbalanced & unscriptural I believe.

Go out in joy & freedom (not to sin, but from sin) & be willing to take whatever cross the Lord calls us to bear for His sake. This is the balanced view of the New Testament in carrying the cross & being His disciple.

E
elected Mar 31, 2016

John of the Cross is not teaching ascetism, he was a Carmelite monk who had a great love for God and men and he talks about this perfect love and how to reach perfect union with Jesus Christ. What he teaches is called mystic theology and the goal of that theology is the maturing and perfecting of the saints in Christ, in holiness and agape love.

In his writings he talks about the way of holiness and spiritual progress, or different stages that we go thru, till we reach that spiritual manhood and maturity of character.

sermonindex Mar 31, 2016

Maybe semantics here, but what he is describing "if there are two choices, a good one & a bad one, choose the bad one" is by definition asceticism. Clear as day. We don't achieve greater spiritual maturity by choosing hot dogs over steak. Unless the Lord specifically makes that a choice for us individually & there's some benefit we are foregoing for the sake of Christ or others. Call it monastic theology or whatever you'd like, but that line of thinking is clearly asceticism. I don't see monks among the apostles or explained in the scriptures/epistles. Sorry, I just don't.

The scriptures are clear that If these things are a personal Conviction (eat not, taste not, touch not), that's fine, but teaching them as doctrines imposing them on others as "the way to holiness" is asceticism (& a form of legalism).

sermonindex Mar 31, 2016

Very well stated, Jeff.

B
brothagary Mar 31, 2016

So with w hen I tell another Christian he should get rid of his tv , ,or stop drinking ,for his own good ,and spiritual maturity,that's legalism ,,,,,Hmmmm.

Now know one is forcing them to not watch , not seeking justification through not watching ... Just incouraging... Get my point ,,....


It not legalism because it's jot forced upon another .....


But don't worry ,,I don't see the teaching of Christ or the apostals ,teaching mystasism

B
brothagary Mar 31, 2016

But I also don't see the bible forbid it either .....which poses another issue.....

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