Christian Mysticism vs. The Holy Spirit

The dictionary gods are going to meet at high noon.

In the meantime,

Jesus will continue to pour out His spirit upon all flesh;
and sons and daughters shall prophesy,
old men shall dream dreams, young men shall see visions:

Psalm 91

Christian Mysticism is greatly misunderstood thanks to Satan mixing it up with gnosticism.

It merely says that all inspiration in the understanding of scripture must come from the Holy Spirit alone as it's basis and not the mind, which is secondary but vital nonetheless. It must be experientially in this order. We are to live by the Spirit and just because many are in error here does not nulify the truth. The balance is a fine dividing line.

It never ever says though that any inspiration can step outside of scripture. Everything must be able to stand this test. But the Spirit giving confirmation of what is truth comes first and it is only when one is filled with the Spirit and therefore in full union with the Trinity, that the principle holds. We see it when the apostles were in full accord and at other times in movements of the Spirit in church hustory like the time of the early Quakers who were in accord with each other. We will never in this life however, have perfect understanding or full revelation each, though enough to walk in His will and have that sense of oneness with others who are in the same Spirit which us unfortunately rare in these dark days.

Another misunderstanding is regarding the word mystery. According to scripture, it is something to be revealed by the Spirit and only kept hidden from the blind. Their own hearts keeps their minds in darkness. There is no secret to it - it is to the obedient that more light is given, obedient that is to the light given to their consciences.

It is when this part is missing that men will start to depend on their minds primarily to interpret scripture and then unity is not possible hence the many sects we see.

Well said, Brenda.

Mystery = "The deep things of God" - Freely given to the spiritual man made known to him by the Spirit.

Foolishness to the natural man who CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit (of God), because they are not naturally discerned (which is the only discernment he has) but spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:10-16

10. But GOD HATH REVEALED them UNTO US BY HIS SPIRIT: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, THE DEEP THINGS OF GOD.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 NOW WE HAVE RECEIVED, not the spirit of the world, but THE SPIRIT WHICH IS OF GOD; THAT WE MIGHT KNOW THE THINGS THAT ARE FREELY GIVEN TO US OF GOD.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which THE HOLY GHOST TEACHETH; COMPARING SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL.

14 But THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

As I am reading this anew, I am realizing why there are so many conflicts in discussions.

Amen, wayneman.

I also noticed in the same chapter of Heb 6 some verses on love and I thought I would post a few thoughts that came to mind if that is ok?

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and LABOUR OF LOVE, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
Heb 6:11 And we desire that EVERY ONE OF YOU DO SHEW THE SAME DILIGENCE to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

The most sought after "maturity" is not knowledge but rather being perfected in love. Knowledge is good, but when isolated only puffs up. (1 Cor 13)

1 Jn 4:12 ...If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

The Spirit can show us amazing things, but if these things are not handled with care (love), then what good is it?

I guess what I am saying is that I would rather have love than knowledge. The Ephesian Church was very knowledgeable/spiritual but had left their first love. Of course, we can have both, Jesus only told them to return to their first love, not discard their knowledge.

But, there is a knowledge that I do seek and that is the knowledge of Him rather than Bible facts. As you know, the heart of a Christian is tested constantly if we are dwelling in love (in God) by how we treat others (love others) and how we respond to the Spirit of God (love Him). Bible facts tell nothing of a man's character/heart.

To me, "the DEEP THINGS OF GOD", are the increasingly rich revelations of Jesus Christ as revealed in His Word and by His Spirit.

Jer 9:23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, THAT HE UNDERSTANDETH AND KNOWETH ME, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

I am determined more than ever to walk as Jesus walked and the only way to do that is complete submission and abiding in Him.

"Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not equate to an ecstatic experience before, during, or after being filled."

Within the charismatic/Pentecostal movement there is error and there is truth. One mans "being filled with the Holy Spirit" is another mans fleshly outburst. The Holy Spirit moves in peoples lives in various and sundry ways. Sometimes He drops them dead in a church service. Other times He knocks them off their horse and blinds them. He might even pick them up and transport them supernaturally across many miles to do His bidding. Other times He overwhelms them with power so that peoples hearts are cut to the quick. Sometimes He causes the whole building to shake...for many to shout out exuberantly and prophesy.

It is unfortunate that some people think they know everything there is to know about the Holy Spirit. In my own personal experience and also from observing the lives of godly men and other great men of God throughout history, and ALSO from reading the book of Acts, there is much that can surprise us and that we may not have yet encountered with Him.

It is a very common experience for their to be an overflow of thrilling joy and ecstasy or tears and a broken heart to be associated with the infilling of the Holy Spirit. At other times you will want to sing, shout clap and dance before the Lord.

These "feelings" are not something that we should ever seek after but they come with the whole package so to speak. We cannot help but be "affected" when we are filled with the Spirit.

Many who refute and downplay these things are usually speaking out of their massive intellects rather than out of their own walk with God. In other words they speak of things they know nothing about.

How true, Mark.

Here is a man that got healed physically and look what he did.

Act 3:8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and LEAPING, and PRAISING God.
Act 3:9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

1Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

"Joy unspeakable" can be quite a challenge for our bodily tents to contain. As a matter of fact it is often quite a spiritually ecstatic event. But, if one has never had "joy unspeakable and full of glory", then the doubts are understandable.

How much more joyful is spiritual healing than physical healing and being joined to the Lord's spirit? This is not just a theory that one reasons with their mind that makes sense. Nothing of the Spirit makes sense to the mind unless the Lord illuminates our minds with revelation.

There seems to be no corroborating evidence whatsoever that Count Zinzendorff was a Mason and Rosarycrucian. On the contrary he was a an absolutely fine fellow and a true servant of the Lord Jesus Christ

This article is from Jews for Jesus

http://jewsforjesus.org/publications/newsletter/november-1994/zinzendorf

Zinzendorf and the Jewish People

by Arthur Glasser
Count Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf (1700-1760) was a remarkable nobleman who became one of the great mission leaders of all time. He lived during a period of great dislocation after the disastrous Thirty Years War" (1618-1648).

That on-again, off-again struggle was just about the most exhausting armed conflict in the history of central Europe. Essentially it involved Catholic efforts to regain territories lost to Protestants as various regional rulers took sides following the Reformation. Armies marched back and forth throughout Germany, opposing all that stood in their way. It is estimated that the decimation embraced one-third of all urbanites and two-thirds of all rural peasants. German princes, foreign interventionists, roving bands of ex-soldiers and religious groups ("Every church for herself") made a horrible mix and mess.

The war broke out in Bohemia, which had become predominantly Protestant. There it all but extinguished the descendants of a vital pre-Reformation Pietist movement associated with Jan Hus. The group was known as the ancient Unitas Fratrum, the Unity of the Brethren. More than 1 million were slain, and bands of survivors sought refuge in Germany. One small group was welcomed to settle on Count Zinzendorf's estate.

Zinzendorf had an unusually godly upbringing. His father died when he was only six weeks old. When his mother subsequently remarried, he was sent to live with his grandmother and aunt in a context (a castle) renowned for its Lutheran Pietism.

Both of these women read their Bibles in the original Hebrew and Greek. They brought the young Zinzendorf into contact with August Hermann Francke, and from his tenth birthday onward the boy studied at Francke's Paedagogium in Halle. There he gained a vision of the church's worldwide mission and took a vow always to be concerned for the Jewish people. Later, Zinzendorf studied law at the University of Utrecht. He seemed destined for a significant career in politics, but certain events took him in a different direction.

Shortly after Zinzendorf's twentyfirst birthday, he acquired the large estate of Berthelsdorf from his grandmother and began to wonder what he should do with it. Then he learned about the need of that small band of Bohemian refugees and encouraged them to settle on his estate.

As refugees from all over began to learn of Count Zinzendorf's welcome, the number of settlers increased. At first, Zinzendorf didn't know what to make of these people. Then he began to reflect on their Christ-centeredness, their biblical orientation and their deliberate nonparochial outlook. In no time at all, he became deeply involved in their communal life and ardent worship.

Space prevents a detailed account of the subsequent history of Herrnhut, the village created on a hill of the Berthelsdorf estate, or of the amazing worldwide Moravian missionary movement that eventuated under Count Zinzendorf's leadership. Suffice it to say that on August 13, 1727, after weeks of special prayer and discussion, the Holy Spirit was pleased to come upon that community. By the twenty- seventh, 48 members had covenanted together to devote themselves to "hourly intercession" for God's blessing on the congregation and its worldwide witness. Then wonderful things began to happen!

Under Zinzendorf's leadership, members were sent out near and far to exemplify "the simple truth that to be a Christian was to be involved in a mission to the whole world" (Lewis 1962:61). Particularly interesting is the fact that in Herrnhut's first contingent of missionaries sent forth to the nations, Leonard Dober was sent to evangelize the Jewish people residing in Amsterdam. Furthermore, those who were sent out to share the good news of Jesus with Gentiles were specifically told that their task was to gather in "a few selected spirits, ‘Candace-souls' (Acts 8:27) who were eager and waiting for the truth" (p. 88). Zinzendorf believed that no heathen race as a whole could be converted until the Jews had embraced Jesus as their Messiah (p. 88). Such was his understanding of Scripture.

Zinzendorf noted that the repeated efforts of the Apostles to evangelize the Jews recorded in Acts met with increased hostility and resistance. He endorsed the guidance God then gave them to turn to the Gentiles. But what particularly caught Zinzendorf's imagination was the Apostle Paul's conviction that toward the close of the Church Age, a renewed Jewish people would play an important role in God's missionary purpose. First, there would be Israel's wholesale turning to the Lord "and so all Israel will be saved" (Romans 11:26). In turn, Israel's service under God's direction would mean nothing less than "life from the dead" for the Gentile nations (Romans 11:15). To Zinzendorf, this meant that even the evangelization of the Jews in his day could be related to what God would do through them in the Last Day. After all, no one knew when He would commence His transforming work in their hearts.

By 1739, Moravians had been sent to Paramaribo, the capital of Dutch Suriname, where the first synagogue in all the Americas was located. They witnessed to both Jews and slaves. But because "their mission began to excite interest, especially among the Jews of the city," the civil and ecclesiastical authorities became hostile, and the mission had to be withdrawn (Hamilton 1900:186).

At that time, Count Zinzendorf and his associates were in deep trouble themselves with the political and religious authorities in Germany. Because of their nonparochial approach to denominational loyalty, they were banished from Berthelsdorf. For almost ten years, they were "strangers and exiles" (Hebrews 11:13) even in their homeland. Fortunately, a wealthy member of the nobility came to their assistance and offered them residence in a half-ruined medieval castle in Ronneburg, east of Frankfurt am Main.

Would they accept this desolate refuge in such a wild and forbidding location? Zinzendorf agreed to look it over. When he did so, he found that 56 families of Jews and gypsies were occupying the castle's outbuildings. Of course the Count, who had long sought to share his faith with leaders in Jewish communities in Europe, could not turn down this offer with its unexpected and exciting possibilities!

Soon Count Zinzendorf, his family and the missionary community took over the castle at Ronnenburg. Now the Moravians had both an operational headquarters and another new Jewish mission field! When their banishment ended, they returned to Herrnhut, and their years at Ronneburg (Wetteravia) entered the annals of God's gracious work among and through the Moravians. There Zinzendorf had carried out his first ordination””that of the Moravian Peter B÷hler. (B÷hler became God's instrument in bringing John Wesley to the assurance of his faith and the joy of full salvation.)

Count Zinzendorf's ministry among the Jewish people set precepts and examples we would all do well to emulate. He made it a rule that once a year, on Israel's solemn Day of Atonement, all Moravians should gather in their churches, get down on their knees and pray for the conversion of God's chosen people. One of the petitions he inserted in the regular Moravian Sunday morning liturgy was:

Deliver thy people Israel from their blindness; bring many of them to know Thee, till the fulness of the Gentiles is come and all Israel is saved (Hutton 1909:245-245).
Count Zinzendorf's example was equally impressive. On a voyage to the West Indies, he learned that the mother of a poor Jewish family in steerage was very sick. The record states that "he turned over his cabin to her while he spent the rest of the voyage below decks in the ill-smelling part of the ship" (Lewis 1962:19). One cannot but recall the occasion when some Jewish people commended to Jesus a Gentile of similar grace then living in Capernaum. They said of him, "He loves our nation" (Luke 7:5). Nikolaus Ludwig von Zinzendorf was truly a "righteous Gentile."

Many contend that William Carey (1761-1834) was the "Father of Modern Missions," but Zinzendorf antedated Carey. Not only that, Zinzendorf spoke far more decisively and acted far more deliberately in making sure that the evangelization of the Jewish people would not be forgotten in his own day. Furthermore, he faithfully reminded Christians everywhere that Israel had a future and glorious role in the worldwide purpose of God. I regard Zinzendorf as the "Father of Modern Biblical Missions."

Bibliography

Hamilton, John Taylor History of the Moravian Church. Bethlehem, PA: Times Publishing Co. (1900).
Hutton, J.E. History of the Moravian Church. London: Moravian Publication Office (1909).
Lewis, Arthur James Zinzendorf, Ecumenical Pioneer. Philadelphia: The Westminster Press (1962).

If you scratch around long enough you can dig up anything about any man of God who was mightily used of the Lord down through the ages.

Interestingly most of these "discernment" websites are run by calvinsits who never seem to bat an eye at the atrocities of their hero John Calvin.

I wonder how many people Count Zinzendorf had imprisoned, tortured and killed?

The answer is none. Zinzendorf had a huge influence on Wesley and christianity as a whole. I would think that if anyone was going to discern he was off the wall it would be the great John Wesley.

The writer of the article in the link given by a-servant, that is David Cloud, Way of Life Literature:

https://kimolsen.net/2015/01/08/contemplative-mysticism-a-powerful-ecumenical-bond/

is doing what a writer in another post on SI points out, that these Calvinistic 'Discernment Ministers' are apt to do that is to say they wipe out a whole denomination or movement because they find one of its members is at fault, and without having sufficient knowledge of the subject they are discussing, which is what they object to when it is pointed out that their mentor John Calvin was a murderer.

Cloud plainly does not understand Quakerism in the least and has not studied its history, which I have. Please read what Robert Barclay says about Immediate Revelation:

Seeing "no man knoweth the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son revealeth him"; and seeing the "revelation of the Son is in and by the Spirit" (Matt. 11:27); therefore the testimony of the Spirit is that alone by which the true knowledge of God hath been, is, and can be only revealed; who as, by the moving of his own Spirit, he disposed the chaos of this world into that wonderful order wherein it was in the beginning, and created man a living soul, to rule and govern it, so, by the revelation of the same Spirit, he hath manifested himself all along unto the sons of men, both patriarchs, prophets, and apostles; which revelations of God by the Spirit, whether by outward voices and appearances, dreams, or inward objective manifestations in the heart, were of old the formal object of their faith, and remain yet so to be, since the object of the saints' faith is the same in all ages, though held forth under divers administrations. Moreover, these divine inward revelations, which we make absolutely necessary for the building up of true faith, neither do NOR CAN EVER CONTRADICT THE OUTWARD TESTIMONY OF THE SCRIPTURES, or right and sound reason. Yet from hence it will not follow, that the divine revelations are to be subjected to the test, either of the outward testimony of the Scriptures, or of the natural reason of man, as to a more noble or certain rule and touchstone; for this divine revelation and inward illumination, is that which is evident and clear of itself, forcing, by its own evidence and clearness, the well-disposed understanding to assent, irresistibly moving the same thereunto, even as the common principles of natural truths do move and incline the mind to a natural assent: as, that the whole is greater than its part, that two contradictories can neither be both true, nor both false.

§I. It is very probable, that many carnal and natural Christians will oppose this proposition; who being wholly unacquainted with the movings and actings of God's Spirit upon their hearts, judge the same nothing necessary; and some are apt to flout at it as ridiculous; yea, to that height are the generality of Christians apostatised and degenerated, that though there be not anything more plainly asserted, more seriously recommended, nor more certainly attested to, in all the writings of the holy Scriptures, yet nothing is less minded and more rejected by all sorts of Christians, than immediate and divine revelation; insomuch that once to lay claim to it is matter of reproach. Whereas of old none were ever judged Christians, but such as "had the Spirit of Christ" (Rom. 8:9). But now many do boldly call themselves Christians, who make no difficulty of confessing they are without it, and laugh at such as say they have it. Of old they were accounted "the sons of God, who were led by the Spirit of God" (ibid. v. 14). But now many aver themselves sons of God, who know nothing of this leader; and he that affirms himself so led, is, by the pretended orthodox of this age, presently proclaimed a heretic. The reason hereof is very manifest, viz.: Because many in these days, under the name of Christians, do experimentally find, that they are not acted nor led by God's Spirit; yea, many great doctors, divines, teachers, and bishops of Christianity (commonly so called) have wholly shut their ears from hearing, and their eyes from seeing this inward guide, and so are become strangers unto it; whence they are, by their own experience, brought to this strait, either to confess that they are as yet ignorant of God, and have only the shadow of knowledge, and not the true knowledge of him, or that this knowledge is acquired without immediate revelation.

The early Quakers were an enirely different kettle of fish to their later kind even from the second generation, which is common after revivals. They splintered into three main factions around the 19th C and today you will find 'Atheist Quakers'.

At the outset though, they were Christ contered Bible believing holy men and women who turned the British Isles upside down. As always, as J has pointed out in his excellent post, the leaders of churches were up in arms against their claims that Christ is to be our primary teacher through the HS. George Fox knew his Bible more than anyone and so did the early Quakers.

What Christian will not say that it is by the Holy Spirit revealing it to them when asked how they know what they read in the Bible is the truth? Men of letters though desire to keep their superior position in interpreting scripture when even Augustine said:

"It is the inward master that teacheth, it is Christ that teacheth, it is inspiration that teacheth: where this inspiration and unction is wanting, it is in vain that words from without are beaten in." And thereafter: "For he that created us, and redeemed us, and called us by faith, and dwelleth in us by his Spirit, unless he speaketh unto us inwardly, it is needless for us to cry out."

Richard Foster has definitely departed from his origins and has been instrumental along with others, in bringing about this modern mixture of the true meaning of Contemplative Spirituality with the eastern religions.

The meaning of the word has changed from:

A state of mature Christianity, where a man reaches the full stature of Christ, and though many trials has come to trust Him entirely, as he gives himself entirely to Him and the promises of God are fulfilled in him and he is enabled to walk in practical holiness..to being able to enter at will, a state of altered consciousness where a man no longer thinks rationally and is therefore entirely open to demonic influences.

This movement has infiltrated the church more and more and even genuine believers can be fooled into joining them. But if you throw out the baby along with the bathwater, you stand at risk of joining those lettered legalistic men without compassion or love, who deny a living faith and quell the hunger and thirst for righteousness that the true mystics knew.