savannah
Apr 21, 2016
Revelation and the Beast
Excellent! Listen and learn!
This is Pure hyper Preterism 101. The great tribulation already happened. Jesus already came. And on and on. Preterism is really a bit like dropping acid or mushrooms (I still remember the folly of my youth sorry): once you "take it", swallow it whole, feel like "you're seeing what others can't see" cause a mind-altering drug is negatively affecting all your perception skills, put on some hippie glasses & turn on a black light, you see everything through that lens. But if you sober up & look at things truthfully & squarely (like go back to Basic Bible interpretation hermeneutic and compare Scripture with Scripture, looking at the full council of all of the sum of God's words), you realize you were just high on a partial self-inflicted blindness. I'm not trying to be harsh, but it's just the truth. Preterism is false. Plain & simple. I say that without a moments hesitation after studying this subject exclusively for awhile now. The ancient preterists' top leaders said "Israel would never again be formed as a nation and its own land or we must question the validity of the New Testament writers". How'd That work out for them?
If a crooked stick is before you, you need not explain how crooked it is. Lay a straight one down by the side of it, and the work is well done. Preach the truth, and error will stand abashed in its presence. CH Spurgeon
Love that quote! Love Spurgeon. I have laid down many a straight stick beside the preterist argument. Did you read or watch any of them? If not, it doesn't matter what stick someone lays down if it gets ignored only to refocus on the crooked stick, now does it?
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
Winston Churchill
If anyone is interested, please do give an ear and hear the message which is linked to the first post.
May those who hear be blessed.
Brother Ray (Savannah),
We would ask that you do not keep posting other media and sermons on preterism. It is simply a viewpoint we do not hold to on SermonIndex as a ministry or website. We are not against some choice brethren who have believed this viewpoint and lived godly lives to the Lord. But what we do want to focus on is godly living and walking in the image of Jesus Christ being obedient disciples (James 1:22). I would ask that you do not continue to try and convince others of your viewpoint but focus your energies on encouraging others in this forum to live a godly life and also learn from others.
We simply do not want to condone a continually pushing of this message as it is clear to us it is not the message held by the early Church or remnant saints throughout history.
This in no way judges your person or your walk with the Lord, but may we agree to follow the Lord as disciples and not focus on minor disagreements, and that you are a guest to these forums and we do want to stay away from divisive viewpoints that we see as not what saints have held to throughout the history of the Church.
This is a very simple but powerful message on the truth of the Beast and coming world leader:
The Antichrist Revealed: Preparing The Body Of Christ For The Coming World Leader by Edgar Reich
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/myvideo/photo.php?lid=3458
Thanks savannah I have been blessed by listening to your link and some of the other sermons by the brother you posted.
I don't know what "Pure hyper Preterism 101" is and I don't even want to know. I think it is wrong to put believers into categories it just causes division.
If I would give you 10 of my "doctrines" you would probably have to put me into several categories and devide me.
I also never heard of John Alley and his church before. So I was just just curious to see for myself what the controversy is all about. To my big surprise I discovered what I believe is a very humbled Bible teacher and godly believer, even if i might not agree with everything he preaches. But it was a big eye opener and I'm very thankful for the post
Personally I don't even believe in the doctrine of a future Antichrist and i have clearly shown in one of my last posts that this doctrine was first invented by a Spanish Priest , he was probably payed for it.
But let me be clear, I'm not going to "war" with any believer who thinks otherwise.
However a very big concern came up in some of the new teachings.
When we establish a new doctrine from Scripture and then support our doctrine with the writings of the Quran.
If we believe that Islam is of the devil then their writings are also of the devil and the devil is a deceiver and a liar.
We should under no circumstanced use the devils writings for our teaching. This is something I feel most strongly about.
Brother Greg may I ask you for your opinion on this and can everyone else step back for a moment
Above all lets try and keep the unity of the Spirit Ephesians 4:3
Brother Mark, I agree with you, it really don't matter what we believe, as long as we all believe in God, no one here needs to be interrogated over their personal beliefs. I agree with Greg, it's the continued pushing ones beliefs that causes strife, why not just hold on to what you believe, and not start a riot over it. Trust me, there is lots of things I would like to interject here, but I have pretty good control over my tongue. Funny thing I've been on SI for I guess 10 years, and I've never seen anyone change their mind on their personal beliefs on any thread, this should show us a lot of our time is wasted on our personal thoughts, and trying to get others to jump on our wagon. One of the greatest issues we have here is understanding, that we all have finite minds.
Savannah,
I finally got around to listening to the vid. I thought he had some very good insights. I never heard of the brother either, but thought he was very humble. He brought out things I never thought of before that are worth consideration and I will probably listen to some more of his teaching.
We have nothing to fear from the truth and the Word of God can defend itself. So, glad the Bereans did not put parameters around what Paul could or could not share with them.
Brother Greg may I ask you for your opinion on this and can everyone else step back for a moment
Dear brother,
I hope I made it quite clear in the other post that we do not desire to see the same teachings argued over. The forums are not here for any brother to try and convince others of their viewpoint. the purpose of the forums is godly edification, encouragement and being conformed to the image of Christ.
from the community guidelines: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=44556&forum=13
We have found that discussions pertaining to politics, conspiracy theories, calvinism/arminianism and others just produce strife and not the fruits of the Spirit so we ask saints not to start these discussion threads on SermonIndex.
We have hand-selected over 50,000 audio, video and text resources on sermon index and we ask that the majority of the discussions centre around those materials provided. You can post another article or sermon from another source also long as its not contrary to the tenor of the materials on SermonIndex.
We do not encourage saints to continually post other media files directly of sermons that possibly are not in-line with views on SermonIndex.
Towards the anti-christ I do believe outside of Scripture there are MANY sources. The book of Enoch is well worth looking into.
also:
St. Justin Martyr (c. 100-165)
DIALOGUE WITH TRYPHO
CHAPTER XXXII -- TRYPHO OBJECTING THAT CHRIST IS DESCRIBED AS GLORIOUS BY DANIEL, JUSTIN DISTINGUISHES TWO ADVENTS.
... and he whom Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, and times, and an half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High. ...
St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 130-202)
Adversus haereses (inter A.D. 180/199)
Book V, Chapter 26
John and Daniel have predicted the dissolution and desolation of the Roman Empire, which shall precede the end of the world and the eternal Kingdom of Christ. The Gnostics are refuted, those tools of Satan, who invent another Father different from the Creator.
1. In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, ...
Tertullian (2nd-3rd Century)
ON THE RESURRECTION, CHAP. XXIV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish."
Trust that helps.
The trouble with the preterist literature is that it is does not draw people's attention to Christ. It is all about an "ism." The same is true of pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, Zionist, anti-Zionist and Four Blood Moons literature. There are a few lines about the deity, lordship and salvation of Christ, and then a few hundred pages of proof-texting and number crunching.
Jesus said, "By their fruits you will know them." Has anything good come out of this avalanche of end-times literature?
T. Austin-Sparks relates: "I shall never forget on a visit to a certain country going into one of the big cities where I was to speak for a week. Everything was so arranged that my first message was timed to follow the last message of a man who had had a week before me, and he had been on prophecy for the whole week. I went into the last meeting where he gave his final message on the signs of the time. Notebooks were out, and they were taking it all down, fascinated. It was all external, all objective; such things as the Roman Empire revived and Palestine recovered. You know the sort of thing. Then he finished and they were waiting for some more, and the notebooks were ready. The Lord put it right into my heart that the first word was to be, 'And every one that hath this hope set on him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:3); to speak on the spiritual effect of that spiritual hope. They were not interested in that. The notebooks were closed, pencils put away, there was no interest as I sought in the Lord to be very faithful as to what all this should mean in an inward way, in adjustment to the Lord, and so on. They were only longing for the meeting to close. When I finished””they hardly waited for me to finish””they were up and out.
"Oh no, it is the Lord, and the Holy Spirit would bring us back to the Lord, and it is not, after all, coming back to nonessentials, to elementary things, to come back to Christ. It is coming on to the only basis upon which the Holy Spirit can really accomplish all God's will and purpose, to be in the School of Christ where the Holy Spirit is teaching us Christ; and the Holy Spirit's way of teaching Christ is experimental."
Very true, Wayne. Most end-times teachings center on man and man's events.
One has to approach the Book of Revelation with a Christocentric view. After-all, it is the "Revelation of Jesus Christ".
The preterist and futurist interpretations seem to segment the interpretation of Revelation, some in the past, some in the future, with a big chasm in-between in the present. This tends to divide the Revelation into "revelations," as many people inaccurately refer to this book, and create a disjuncture. The Christocentric interpretation that explains the conflict between Christianity and religion, allows the entire book to remain consistently connected. Chapters 2 and 3 provide the historical setting of "religion" creeping into the churches, so that chapters 4-22 can be pictorially placed alongside to reveal the details of the conflict between the Church and the religious system throughout the last days. Christ is victorious and all who follow Him will be, too.
In summary, the Book of Revelation is very Christ-centered and unfortunately, this is a difficult environment to communicate those truths. With the proper attitude and openness and patience, this is a very enriching study.
I would encourage everyone to study the "Revelation of Jesus Christ".
Jeff said:
"This is Pure hyper Preterism 101."
I listened to the youtube, and checked the definition of hyper preterism.
Essentially hyper preterists think that the parousia (second coming) has already happened.
In this sermon it is made crystal clear that the parousia is still in the future to us, and is an event that we hopefully looking forward to.
Therefore it did not teach hyper preterism. Neither did anyone on this forum teach hyper preterism.
Just because someone calls a person hyper preterist that doesn't make that person a hyper preterist.
Zsuzsanna
At the time when John, the apostle write this:
1 John 2:18 (KJV)
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall(future) come, even now(present) are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
So it is true that there are antichrists(plural) from Jesus'time up to now in present, because anyone who is not of Christ is antichrist,
but also that antichrist(singular), is still yet to come.
2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Julius,
The Revelation is a vast panorama with the Lamb of God at the center. The panoramic background is a battle between light and darkness, and yes, religion is very definitely identified with the dark side! When I first saw that, I suddenly found myself allergic to any word that ends with "-ism."
It was future to those to whom John wrote the letter. This verse does not prove that it is also future to us.
Zsuzsanna
by wayneman on 2016/4/24 23:21:31Julius,
The Revelation is a vast panorama with the Lamb of God at the center. The panoramic background is a battle between light and darkness, and yes, religion is very definitely identified with the dark side! When I first saw that, I suddenly found myself allergic to any word that ends with "-ism."
Me too, Wayne. It certainly is repugnant. :-)
by Tozsu on 2016/4/24 22:53:47Jeff said:
"This is Pure hyper Preterism 101."
I listened to the youtube, and checked the definition of hyper preterism.
Essentially hyper preterists think that the parousia (second coming) has already happened.
In this sermon it is made crystal clear that the parousia is still in the future to us, and is an event that we hopefully looking forward to.
Therefore it did not teach hyper preterism. Neither did anyone on this forum teach hyper preterism.
Just because someone calls a person hyper preterist that doesn't make that person a hyper preterist.Zsuzsanna
Zsuzsanna,
Thank you, for elucidating that thought!
All I can say, is that we have to approach the book of Revelation just like any other book in the Bible. We must be willing to use exegesis and not eisegesis. Exegesis means we derive meaning out of the text (to lead out) whereas in eisegesis we read our preconceived ideologies and interpretations into the text. If we approach Revelation with a pre-determined eschatological position almost like some fixed "grid" overlaying Revelation then we will use and abuse the book to try to document what we think we already know so it fits our "grid". We will force our presuppositions (and current events) to "fit" into the grid. Like forcing a square block into a round hole.
And it's not just end-times subjects or teachers that practice eisegesis, other people have their "grids" that they place over the Bible, too. Cessationists place a grid over the Word and it is very difficult to teach them truths when they already have preconceived ideas that these truths no longer exist. Almost, like part of Jesus (who is the Healer, Deliverer and Baptizer) does not exist in His Church, anymore.
I know about grids,,,I have had to destroy several in my 39 years of walking with the Lord.
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