Some questions about the proposed Millennium

Isa 59:20 has always been regarded as a Messianic prophecy by the Christian Church of Jesus Christ coming to deliver (save) us from our sins.

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

And we see Paul, himself a Jew, referring to this same fulfilled Messianic Prophecy.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

He shall DELIVER (save) His people from their sins.

Paul says this after dealing with "the fulness of the Gentiles" having come in and now Jews are saved. Together, they are regarded as "All Israel". ALL Israel cannot only be the Gentiles or only be the Jews.

Remember, Paul speaks of two Israels in Romans 9.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9:8 is the explanation of 9:6.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: (ALL ISRAEL are believing Jews and Gentiles who are saved by faith in Christ)

Back to the Messianic prophecy of Isa 59. Jesus Christ is the Deliverer and He came out of Zion (Jerusalem). But this verse is reinterpreted as a future verse regarding the millenium (end of the tribulation, beginning of the millenium). Since we know Jesus Christ came out of Jerusalem the first time, died and resurrected to DELIVER us from our sins, premillenialists also use this verse for the 2nd coming to emphasize Jesus Christ will deliver Israel from their physical enemies which is what Israel has always believed, and thus missed the Messiah the first time. Evangelicals are supporting this notion that Christ is coming again to set up a physical kingdom on earth and slay the carnal enemies of ethnic Israel.

Why do we know that "All Israel shall be saved", does not mean all earthly Israel will be saved? Because in v14, Paul says "MIGHT SAVE SOME OF THEM".

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and MIGHT SAVE SOME OF THEM.

Let's just deal with the first time Jesus came to see if this verse works: Could it mean ALL JEWS will be saved the first time? This does not mean all ethnic Jews at the time of Christ's first appearing will be saved because Judas, who was called "the son of perdition", obviously died in his sins. Jesus also told many Jews, "If you do not believe I am He [the Messiah], you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). Not every Jew believes in Jesus Christ, thus many will "die in their sins” and be lost.

So, if this verse does not apply to the 1st century, let's see if it applies, later. Many Christians today interpret Romans 11:26 as applying to the end of the seven-year tribulation when Jesus appears in the clouds at His Second Coming. In other words, they don’t apply the verse to all Jews throughout history, but only to "all Jews” who are alive at the end. Supposedly, at the end of the tribulation, all remaining Jews in Israel will look up, see Christ coming in the clouds, realize He is the true Messiah, believe in Him, and thus "All Israel will be saved.”

How can this not be false teaching? Let me show you why it is a false Messiah and a false Gospel.

1. The context of Romans 11 is not the Second Coming.

2. "There is no partiality with God” (Romans 2:5-11). It would be an act of partiality to save "all Jews” at the end, but not "all Jews” in history. The idea is, "When all final Jews see Christ coming in the clouds, then they will believe.” But this would give those final Jews a supposedly irresistible opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ which past Jews have not had. Nor would this be fair to "all Gentiles” living at the end. Why would God save all Jews at the end but not all Gentiles? All Gentiles will see Jesus coming just like all Jews. What if some Gentiles say, "hey that is Christ, I repent", will they be saved? No, according to premillenialists.

3. Is it too late to believe in Christ when He appears? What does the scripture say? When Christ finally appears in the clouds, IT’S TOO LATE TO BELIEVE IN HIM. Rev. 22:11,12 says that before He comes in the clouds, all decisions have already been made. Jesus said it will be like Noah’s day (Mat. 24:37-39). In Noah’s day the door of the ark closed before the flood came (Gen. 7:16). When the flood came, it was too late. To save all Jews AT THE SECOND COMING would be like saving all those outside the ark WHEN THE RAIN STARTED FALLING.

4. When Jesus comes in the clouds, this is the time of judgment upon ALL unbelievers who don’t know God nor obey the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14,15).

So what does all this mean, "All Israel shall be saved”? First of all, Romans 9:6 says there are two Israels. One is an Israel according to the flesh (Romans 9:3,4) and the other is the Israel of God (Galatians 6:14-16). The Israel of God is composed of both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ (Gal. 3:29). Gentiles who believe are grafted in. They become part of the "same body” with believing Jews (Eph. 3:6). Paul calls this unity of believing Jews and Gentiles, "the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4).

The immediate context of Romans 11:26 is vs. 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in,” then "all Israel will be saved.” Or, to be exact, "And so all Israel will be saved.” In other words, the coming in of the fullness of the Gentiles results in "all Israel” being saved. Paul’s idea seems to be that when the Gentiles have come in, that is, have been grafted into the Vine, they, uniting with the Jews who have become believers, will form the total number of the saved (All Israel). Paul also reveals that when Gentiles come in, God can use this to motivate some Jews to believe (verses 11 & 14). Vs. 25 calls this whole thing, "this mystery,” which we have already proven to be the "mystery” of both Jews and Gentiles being united in one body through Christ (Eph. 3:4,6). Vs. 27 says all are saved because Christ takes away their sins through His covenant, which must be the New Covenant, which applies to all believers, Jew and Gentile. Thus the "all Israel” that is saved is the total group of believing Gentiles and Jews combined.

The "all Israel that is saved” does not apply to all Jews throughout history, nor can it apply to a select favored group who become instant believers at the end of history, when Jesus Christ comes crashing down through the sky. By that time, it is too late to believe.

This selective, instantaneous, sovereign salvation denies the blood of Christ and salvation by faith. It clearly is another Jesus and the fables that Peter talked about. I am convinced that Paul had to fight not only the issue of the law with the Judaizers but he also had to fight the issue (lies) that the Messiah was coming again to establish a physical kingdom on earth and slay ethnic Israel's carnal enemies for this is what the Judaizers believed. You know they were contending with Paul regarding a future earthly kingdom. Paul knew that the kingdom of God is not of this world.

The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers.

Julius,
Well at least You finally didn't beat around the bush & hide what you really believe so confirming so much for me (& others frankly), but your post BEGS THE QUESTION, since you said yourself the following below:

"The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers."

Besides the extremely bad exegesis & use of scripture repeatedly out of its context again (& conjecture what "Paul was dealing with" in addition to what the whole scripturally stated point of Galatians and elsewhere really is), I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

This just highlights again for me the main big problem with Preterist style of Biblical hermeneutics, interpretation & refusal to look at everything in its greater context.

and in this corner, at 15 stone....."IST"....and in the other corner! we have "ISM" at 15 stone!

it shall last until one or the other, tires, or realizes the horror of religious PRIDE....and meanwhile many new forum members shall be aghast and stumbled.

and in the Heavenly Courts, JESUS WEPT.

Neil,
God Bless you friend. My heart is not to "win" but to warn. I don't fast & pray to win arguments. Sorry if it comes across that way. I never said people who bought into what I believe is false (Preterism) are "False Salvation". I am warning Against the teaching, not attacking & accusing those who believe it as "False Beievers". I think something I have Been praying about just showed its head. I may just get off & stay off & let the preterists have their way here then. That's clearly what I saw when I came back. The Gospel of Preterism & Relacement theology. If I didn't feel compelled It was dangerous I wouldn't spend time on it brother.
God Bless you,
Jeff

I'm also a bit lost here...yes there are all sorts of "false gospels" out there.
Most importantly we need to know the true Gospel in order to save .
According to the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter Elwell, "the gospel is the joyous proclamation of God's redemptive activity in Christ Jesus on behalf of man enslaved by sin."

Salvation is ultimately the work of the HS, a new believer becomes a "new creation" and "by their fruit we shall know them."

Let's take it one at a time, just to make it less complicated.

Isa 59:20 has always been regarded as a Messianic prophecy of Jesus Christ coming to deliver Israel from sin in His first advent. Of course, many Jews saw this as physical deliverance from their carnal enemies and still do.

"And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD."

"transgression in Jacob" --> speaking of Jews

Peter, speaking out and proclaiming that "ALL THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL" needs to know this!! After speaking, 3,000 souls were saved. Therefore, Isaiah 59:20 is fulfilled because the Redeemer (who came out of Zion), came to 3,000 souls that turned from transgression that day. And Isaiah continues to be fulfilled each time a Jew turns from his transgression to the Redeemer.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
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Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Do Futurists/Premillenialists agree with the fulfillment of this verse or do they reinterpret this verse to mean this will happen in the millenium and it means that Jesus is going to deliver ethnic Israel from its carnal enemies when He comes again and sets up shop on earth?

Is this a carnal deliverance or a spiritual deliverance.

Notice, that Roman 11:26 is not talking about delivering Israel from carnal enemies but from their ungodliness. It is a spiritual deliverance which first took place in the Book of Acts.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/4/22 20:24:40

I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

I was kind of a dispensalionist by default, meaning I accepted the pre-wrath rapture of the church, but did not know at the time that dispensationalism/millenialism came along with it. At that time I was only concentrating on the theologies surrounding the rapture and I was very young in the Lord.

For a very, very long time, I used to receive Marv Rosenthal's monthly magazine called Zion's Hope. I intellectually accepted the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church because I did not believe in "Escapism", but never really seriously studied different end-times views. I bought his book, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church", and at the time it sounded better than the Pre-trib rapture nonsense. So, at that time I was mainly concentrating on theology surrounding the so-called "Rapture", but not studying millenialism at all. Here is Marv's website if you are interested in knowing who I am talking about. I loved his missions oriented, evangelical outreach to the Jews, but I have grown in my own scriptural views of his end-time views since then. I think as we study the word and pray and seek the Lord concerning His word, we should grow and it's ok to say that I believed this or that a long time ago. I don't think anyone arrives on day 1 with a full understanding of God's Word, and in fact no one in this life ever reaches that point, period.

I do think it is important to take a critical look at all of our beliefs and see if they make scriptural sense from all angles. I find your presentation lacking and not making any scriptural sense. Hence my original questions to you in the first post of this thread.

Here is Marv's site.
http://www.zionshope.org/index.aspx

by brothagary on 2016/4/22 23:48:09

25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB

Clearly this has not happened yet ,clearly the fullness of the time of the Gentiles has not come yet,and Clearly he has not removed the ungodliness away from Jacob ,because there is still a huge partial hardening happen to date ,,,,

Like you said, "there is still a huge partial hardening". That is because it is a process not a single futuristic event.

"Blindness IN PART" has happened, so the Deliverer HAS COME and removed ungodliness from those who were not blinded and had not hardened their hearts, such as the 3,000 on the day of Pentecost. We cannot say that Jesus did not deliver them from their ungodliness because He did exactly that? Paul the Apostle is one that was delivered from ungodliness.

Paul is saying there are more that the Deliverer will deliver from their ungodliness and when that has happened "ALL Israel", (speaking of spiritual Israel) Jew and Gentile together will be complete/saved. It is a process that is taking place. It is not a set time only in the future of a single sovereign event and the book of Acts proves that and Jews that have been saved throughout the last days (last 2,000 years) prove it.

We all must be saved by faith in the Gospel. "Having not seen Him, we love Him".

Why would only secular, unbelieving Jews recognize the Messiah coming in the clouds and Gentiles not recognize Him? Both are secular, both are faithless and godless, many atheistic and many are even friends of one another. What is it that Jesus is going to do sovereignly that only saves Jews? What Gospel is that?

Yeah, I would like to change the title, too. I have not been comfortable with it. In reflection, I admit it is too provocative. Any ideas?

I will change it to, "Some questions about the Millennium"

You still didn't answer my question/s Julius? Let me try again (cause your accusations of my, or anyone who believes like I do, as having received a false Gospel, a false Christ, & a false salvation are not "a small thing" friend. Please read and answer this question:

your post BEGS THE QUESTION, since you said yourself the following below:

"The Jesus that is taught by premillenialists is a Jesus that I do not know neither is it a "voice" that I am familiar with.

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the VOICE of strangers."

Besides the extremely bad exegesis & use of scripture repeatedly out of its context again (& conjecture what "Paul was dealing with" in addition to what the whole scripturally stated point of Galatians and elsewhere really is), I have a question: if "it's another voice of a stranger that the sheep don't follow" (that would be a damnable heresy claim friend), but you said yourself YOU USED TO BE A DISPENSATIONALIST, were you not saved then? If you were, why did you follow the wrong voice (using your own construct)? So which is it friend?

PP, political, ethnic salvation is a false gospel message.

Ancient Rabbinism is being used in premillenialism. Jesus rejected the idea of setting up an earthly kingdom.

Christ's kingdom on earth is spiritual in character not political and it is not the true Jesus who will wipe out carnal enemies of a particular ethnic group.

But come to think of it maybe I shouldn't use the word ethnic since Jews are of all ethnic backgrounds, but I can say religious group since many are not religious. So, I must use nationalistic group.

Let me rephrase now. If a "Christ" comes, who is responsible for influencing the destruction of nationalistic Israel's carnal enemies, then it is a false Christ.

This explains what I mean by false gospel and false Christ. I'm not saying the brothers participating in this thread believe in a false Christ. Sorry, if I communicated that. Though, they may unwittingly be preaching and teaching things that Christ already rejected when He came the first time.

Jeff, I answered your question. You missed it.

Here are some other questions surrounding the "Millenium" that I have.

If you are a premillenialist, whether dispensational or not how do you answer these important questions?

1. Does this belief system propose that physical death will continue to exist beyond the time of Christ's second coming?

2. Does this system believe that the natural creation will continue, beyond the time of Christ's second coming, to be subjected to the curse imposed by the Fall of man?

3. Does this system believe that the New Heavens and New Earth will not be introduced until 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

4. Does this system believe unbelieving men and women will still have the opportunity to come to saving faith in Christ for at least 1,000 years following His return?

5. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally resurrected until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

6. Does this system believe that unbelievers will not be finally judged and cast into eternal punishment until at least 1,000 years following the return of Christ?

It seems to me that sin in the lives of God's people, corruption of the natural creation, and the experience of physical death would terminate upon the appearance of Jesus Christ. And that the resurrection of the body, and the final judgment, would commence?

by joliboy11 on 2016/4/23 11:47:05

Honestly, brother, I don't know all the answer to your question regarding tjhe future reign of Christ, but I believe that the Bible has plentitude of references to it:

Psalms 22:27-29 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalms 86:9 (KJV) All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 102:13-16 (KJV)
13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.
15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.
16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

I recommend listening to Art Katz, "Theocratic Kingdom" sermon

Yes, brother Joliboy, we have an answer in Rev 7:9:

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Paul is differentiating between the 2 Jerusalems.

"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal 4:24-6)

Today, we are members of Jerusalem above by faith in Christ. We serve a spiritual King in His spiritual kingdom, which is within us.