Hi Linda,
You think 144k is a computationally exact number and not a symbolic number like 666? What do you think it means say, for instance if it was a figurative/symbolic number? Got any ideas?
Let us not forget that we are viewing this panorama of Revelation from a divine perspective beyond space and time, wherein "a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (Ps. 90:4; II Peter 3:8).
T.F. Torrance notes that
"we have no more right to take this thousand years literally than we have to take the ten-headed and seven-horned monster literally. It is entirely out of place therefore to bring down the thousand years out of its apocalyptic setting and place it on the ordinary plane of history, as if it could be handled by a worldly arithmetic and manipulated in calculations about the dispensations of time or about the end of the world. Such an intrusion into the secrets of God is utterly foreign to the Bible."
Since people are so literal minded regarding the end times, I wonder if they think this is talking about a literal ten-headed and seven-horned monster? Where do you think these monsters are coming from, that is if they were literal? Do you think they are prehistoric animals that survived the ice age, for example? Or some ugly demonic monster that no one has ever seen before coming up out of the sea? Or do you think they are symbolic of something else? How do you determine what is symbolic and what is literal? For instance, if it is something that no one has ever seen should we really consider it literal?
Previously referred to as killing the Christian "witnesses” (11:7), the beast from the reservoir of evil is now represented as "having ten horns,” a parody of complete power or authority, "and seven heads,” a presumption of perfect wisdom. "On his horns were ten diadems,” a pretense of full royal regency and a parody of Jesus who is "King of Kings” (19:16). Religion has certainly engaged in the presumption of royal power and perfect knowledge. On the heads of the beast were "blasphemous names” whereby it misrepresented itself as God. Religion loves to put "titles” on all its "heads,” calling them "Holy Father,” "Righteous One,” "Most Honorable,” and "Reverend,” among others.
Elsewhere in the Bible, "Sea" means people so what is the worst beast that comes up out of the "SEA" but doctrines of demons through unsaved (children of the Devil) people? Wouldn't the beast be religion? The way it nullifies the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and puts people in bondage? Religion has been the worst beast this world has ever encountered and religion is behind most wars. What if the beast rising out of the sea (out of unsaved peoples) was religion? Many have speculated it is Rome, which would certainly fit the bill. Emergent Theology, Islam, JW's, Mormons, Hinduism, etc, etc, all fit the bill, don't they? They deceive and keep people from the knowledge of the truth ensuring their soul is damned unless they hear and respond to the Gospel.
We know the beast of religion has allied itself with governments through the centuries. "the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat upon the horse, and against His army” (19:19).
Is there really a physical battle of Armageddon, or does this refer to the biggest, most diabolical battle of all time, spanning ages. The spiritual battle between Jesus Christ and His Church and the Beast of Religion and it's false Christ, Satan? Satan can't duplicate the things of the spirit so all of his counterfeits are in the physical realm. Do you think he actually does want us to take Revelation symbolic and figurative imagery as physical because that is where he plays (counterfeits) best?
The eyes of Jesus are described as "a flame of fire” (19:12) as they were previously in 1:14 and 2:18. Literal or symbolic? Maybe they refer to His penetrating gaze and knowledge, Jesus sees all things and knows all things; He cannot be deceived, therefore His judgment is always just.
"Upon His head are many diadems” (19:12). Do you think He really has diadems on His head or is it figurative speech to represent His royal power as "ruler of the kings of the earth” (1:5).
Interestingly, the dragon (12:3) and the beast (13:1) are pictured with diadems, too. But, we know it is just a pretentious parody of Him who is "King of kings and Lord of lords” (19:16). Satan has always wanted to occupy the place of the most high so on earth he usurps the place of Jesus. But, he really can't usurp the place of Jesus in the true Church so he create his own church (religion) and sits down and presumes to rule over the "kings of the earth" (Pope).
Here is some food for thought: Throughout the book of Revelation many numbers are employed figuratively and symbolically (ex. 3 1/2, 7, 10, 12, 24, 666, 144,000), rather than with base-ten human arithmetical designation.
Which ones do you think are symbolic and which ones do you think that God is actually giving the arithmetic number to us?
What do you think seven angels, seven stars and seven eyes, mean? Elsewhere, in the bible the number 7 means perfection or completeness. Is this a hint for us? Are the eyes maybe referring to God's perfect and complete omniscience and omnipresence?
The heavenly city is adorned with all kinds of stones. Are these literal or symbolic. Are they maybe used to convey things like value and purity or do you think it is important for God to impress us with how He had built this city and what materials He had used. Who even knows what Jasper is?
People are wearing white robes. Literal or symbolic. I think they represent purity.
If everything is literal, wouldn't that be too obvious and the Lord should have just spoken in regular language to us as He did in other epistles. If symbolism is to be taken literally, doesn't the Lord run the risk of people coming up with many, many interpretations?
Are there really seven of every thing or is the Lord using this number as symbolic of perfection and completeness? Seven churches, seven angels, seven bowls, seven last plagues, seven heads, seven kings, seven mountains, etc.
"The woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls” (17:4). Purple and scarlet clothing provides a parody of the eminence and importance of royalty, for she will later declare herself a "queen” (18:7). Her excessive adornment reveals her to be but a gaudy tramp, just as religion is enamored with the external trappings of wealth and splendor. The harlot is to be contrasted, of course, with the "woman” who gives birth to the Messiah (12:1,6,14) which, if this represents the "Jerusalem above” (Gal. 4:26), can also be identified with "the bride” (19:7,8), who is clothed with the "bright and clean” garments of the purity of Christ’s character.
One’s interpretation will have to be "symbolic” to some degree, don't you think? The Middle-eastern mind-set seems to have thought in visual images. They communicated in picture-language and story-telling. There are still many peoples today who still communicate in this way. We of the Western world, with our thinking patterns developed primarily from Aristotelian logic, tend to think in direct, logical categories, rather than in picture-language.
Perhaps the closest thing in our society that conveys ideas in pictures like we have here in the Revelation, might be the editorial cartoons in our newspapers. For example, the President might be pictured as an eagle, with his face attached, and his antagonist as a rodent. Sometimes it is difficult even now, for readers to see what the cartoonist means to convey by the pictures. Just think what it would be two thousand years from now, to look at the pictures and try to see what they mean. Thankfully, the picture-language of the Revelation is not trapped in a particular historical setting as the editorial cartoons usually are; the images of Revelation are "timeless” pictorializations, not trapped in history, not trapped in the future, but forever applicable.
You have to remember that as you read Revelation think of the parallels of how Satan in his vain attempt is always trying to usurp the Lord's rule and His personal attributes on earth but always falls way short as his counterfeits are a mere perversion of the character of Christ. Pride cloaked as humility. Avarice and greed cloaked in acts of giving whereas the Lord and His saints give their lives and are not attached to any possessions. Hatred cloaked in disingenuous love. It is all phony and fleshly and physical and Revelation displays this so powerfully.
Would like to give credit to http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/RevelationCommEbook.pdf, where many of my ideas came from and the symbolism of Revelation is explained very well.
