Featured SI Sermon: "The Theocratic Kingdom", Art Katz

I just listend to the entire discourse by video and took some running notes on it throughout. Maybe I can get them together in some type of coherent form and share them.

First impression - Art spoke heavily against the ALLEGORICAL and METAPHORICAL hermentuic and method of interpretation that has in his opinion taken so many of the promises made to Israel and reinterpeted them to mean us. We have therefore lost sight of the mystery revolving around the inter-connection between Israel's coming restoration and the church and the second advent of Christ as He comes again to the same nation and people He ascended from.

Second impression - there are vast portions of the present church who want nothing to do with this type of message or the view expressed therein. It's anathema to them.

I believe Romans 11 is clear on what is the the plan of God to israel from the beginning.

I don't think all promises is fulfilled, it this that? Is this all?

Satan will bless us but will cut off our relationship with God.

Majority of Irael is indifferent to the faith. The best is yet to come.

/Art doesn't give many scriptures. Lot of passion, lots of emotion, but thin on scriptures. I wish he would have backed up his ideas in that article/video with the Word. Many things are right, some are not./

The scriptures Art used in this teaching were:
Deut 32:7-9
Psalm 2:1-6
Psalm 83:1-5
Isaiah 11:9b
Isaiah 2:2-4
Isaiah 45:6, 22
Isaiah 9:6-7

Having watched it all the way through, I would say in the brief hour and four minutes that Art packed the teaching with scripture.

/So, the OT is all about pictures and types and shadows of spiritual realities that are realized in the NT church yet we are to believe that even though the scriptures in the OT say that God fulfilled all of His promises to Israel concerning their land, and their blessing and their seed being as the stars of heaven and sand of the sea, that somehow, that is not completely true?/

As Art said, not in the metaphorical allegorical "it's all spiritual" way many of the promises have been interpreted to have been fulfilled

/That the kingdom of heaven now, is not about racial or geographical divides but it will be when Jesus comes back?/

Why should it chafe people and especially Gentile believers if Israel comes to a place of prominence among the nations at the Lord's return? Israel said, "We won't have this Jesus rule over us now the nations and much of the church say, "We won't have this nation rule over us." It's a matter of the heart embracing what God has chosen.

/The New Covenant and Kingdom that we are in now are projected into a future millenium? This shows an inadequate understanding of the complete fulfillment of God’s promises in Jesus Christ and to Israel in the OT./

That's not really what Art said. He said the emphasis on the kingdom NOW has been taken so far that it has in many instances basically nullified any future aspects of the Lord's return as being part of the kingdom especially in regards to how Israel will again play a prominent role after Christ returns. If I could politely suggest it, you may need to take another look at what Art really said.

/You are essentially attempting to force the continuity of Abrahamic promise/fulfillment into a halt (church age ends) and then a restarted projected future continuity but not the Church anymore. The Church age is only a parentheses and is not God's ultimate intention. It is plan B./

?????

Art didn't come close to going there nor have I. He never mentioned this.

/The "Hebrew root” teacher, Jacob Prasch says this:
‘Jacob came for a bride from his own people. He desired Rachel, but he did not get Rachel at first, but Leah … Jesus came for Israel. He wanted to marry Israel, but He did not get Israel. He ends up with the bride He did not desire at first, the Gentile church.’ (Jacob Prasch, teaching on Ruth, MORIEL website)./

The Lord didn't get Israel? What about Peter and James and John and the many thousands of Jews saved and later Paul and the many many Jews saved over the centuries? He didn't get the whole nationbut the point of the teaching was that God is not through with that nation yet. Into this initial act of salvation occuring among those of Israel the Gentiles were allowed to be included (Ephe 3:6) but that doesn;t cancel Isarel's future at the Lord's return.

/God has no plan "B"/

?????

There is no reference to this in the tape.

/So, the Church Age is put on "hold" and will be resumed in the future at the second coming of Jesus because He has to complete the physical fulfillment to Israel. Even though in the OT, there are scriptures that indicate God fulfilled all of His physical promises to Israel./

The teaching never came close to saying the church age has been put on "hold."

/The problem with this belief is that it now takes Christ's spiritual kingdom and fixates it into a physical, racial and national preoccuption. And yet, Christ came and said, my Kingdom is not of this world, and He broke down racial and national barriers making all part of His Body. Physical localities, racial background and nationalism have no place in Christ. All the types and pictures of the OT, pointed to spiritual realities. Are we now taking those spiritual realities and bringing them back into physical, racial and national realities?/

I can't speak for Art of course yet he might say that your emphasis on the kingdom of Christ being a spiritual kingdom only, minus anything earthly but only some nebulous spiritual sphere of existence, is because of the allegorical metaphorical way of interpreting many of the promises in the OT. Art said when you see the word Jerusalem it's safe to be that the Lord literally meant Jeruslaem yet as he mentioned the metaphorical method has made the word "Jerusalem" anything and everything but that.

/The Church Age is not a parentheses:
Christians are "complete in Christ” (Col. 2:10) having "everything” God intends in Him (I Cor. 3:21-23; Eph. 1:3; II Pet. 1:3)./

?????

Who said it was? Not Art

/The scriptures say that God fulfilled all of his promises to Israel regarding promised blessing to Abraham, making them as the "sand of the sea", making them into a Nation, giving them all the Land He promised and fulfilling all of His promises. But, don't take my word for it. I gave the scriptures, below. At the very bottom are some quotes regarding the difference between Dispensational Theology and Covenant Theology in regards to eschatology./

Yet Art was not a dispensational believer.

/What promises of God were fulfilled to Israel, physically?

1. He did make them "as the sand of the sea" and the "stars of heaven".

1Ki 4:20 Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry.

Deu 1:10 The LORD your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.

For more scripture "witnesses" please see: II Chron. 1:9; Neh. 9:23; Heb. 11:12

2. He made them into a NATION.

Deu 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
Deu 4:7 For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?

1Ch 17:21 And what one nation in the earth is like thy people Israel, whom God went to redeem to be his own people, to make thee a name of greatness and terribleness, by driving out nations from before thy people, whom thou hast redeemed out of Egypt?

And Jesus confirms that God fulfilled His promise of making them into a great nation, by saying it will be taken from them.
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof./

Taken from them yes but NEVER permanently.

/3. LAND

The Lord gave them land:
Jos 2:9 And she said unto the men, I know that the LORD hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you.

And the Lord God gave them ALL THE LAND He swore to give them.

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL THE LAND which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.

God "performed His words to Israel".

Neh 9:7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
Neh 9:8 And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:

Neh 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.

Neh 9:24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would./

4. God blessed Abraham

Gen 24:34 And he said, I am Abraham's servant.
Gen 24:35 And the LORD hath blessed my master greatly; and he is become great: and he hath given him flocks, and herds, and silver, and gold, and menservants, and maidservants, and camels, and asses.

Isa 51:2 Look unto Abraham your father, and unto Sarah that bare you: for I called him alone, and blessed him, and increased him.

5. ALL promises fulfilled:

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel ALL THE LAND WHICH HE SWARE to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 21:45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; ALL CAME TO PASS.

1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, ACCORDING TO ALL THAT HE PROMISED: THERE HATH NOT FAILED ONE WORD OF ALL HIS GOOD PROMISE, WHICH HE PROMISED which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Heb 6:15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.

So, if the Scriptures mean anything to us, I hope it is clear that God fulfilled all of His promises to Israel. They now come into the church as Paul the apostle and many other Jewish people have come in./

After all of the scriptures you have listed above, why were the prophets hundreds of years later still speaking of Israel one day possessing the land forever? You've completely left out relevant passages from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malchai. If all was edone in the days of Joshua and the kings etc. why hundred of years later were the prophets still bringing a future possession of the land to the forefront?

/More scriptures for you. Do they mean anything?

Promises of God to Abraham fulfilled spiritually:
”¢ progeny, descendancy, "seed” - Rom. 4:16; 9:8; Gal. 3:7,29; 4:28; Rev. 7:9
Ӣ nation, community - I Pet. 2:9; Phil. 3:20; Eph. 2:19
Ӣ land, place - Heb. 4:1,9; 11:10,13-16; 12:22; Jn. 14:2,3; Gal. 4:26; Eph. 2:6; II Pet. 3:13; Rev. 3:12; 21:1,2
Ӣ blessing - Eph. 1:3; Gal. 3:8,9,14
ALL promises fulfilled in Christ: Lk. 22:44-49; Rom. 15:8; II Cor. 1:20
JESUS is the "hope of Israel” - Acts 26:6; 28:20
Christians are: God’s people - Titus 2:14; I Pet. 2:9
Spiritual Israel - Rom. 9:6; Gal. 6:16
Spiritual Jews - Rom. 2:28,29
Recipients of promises to Abraham - Gal. 3:18; Heb. 9:15/

Not all of the promises to Abraham were spiritual promises. That's why the non-literal "they're spiritual only" interpretation of many of the physical promises has robbed them of their original meaning and content. A perfect example of what Art spoke of nullifying any future aspect or relevance for Israel unto which Christ will return.

Art never said the New Covenant and Kingdom that we are in now are projected into a future millennium. He said the emphasis on the kingdom NOW many times has turned the attention of many away from what the Bible has to say about Israel and the future at the return of the Lord. He said the kingdom would come at the Lord's return but he meant in its fullness. He never attempted to suggest that the progress of the Abrahamic covenant has come to a halt until the Lord returns nor did he mention the church and the church age as being a parenthesis or plan B.

And again, in your reference to land promises being already fulfilled, you left out the writings of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Zechariah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malchai. Hundreds of years after the books and people you mentioned these prophets were still prophesying of Israel being restroed to the land. If all had been fulfilled there would have been no need for them to do so yet there they were still speaking of it. Why?

Art proposed that Christ would indeed return to Israel from whence He left and that the restoration of Israel and the Lord's return are solidly and inextricably linked together and inter-connected. He spoke that if the church does not see or include in its theological bearings that the return of the Lord and the restoration of Israel are linked together and see only the Lord's return minus any relevance for Israel then the church has lost sight of the mystery of Israel and the church. Losing sight of this likely largely comes, as Art said, from a metaphorical way of reinterpreting the scriptures founded on the erroneous belief that God is once and forever through with physical Israel.

Having read many of your posts Julius I am convinced that you still have basic misunderstandings in many areas of the premill view. Plus, your criticism of Art's teaching here comes from you who believe we are presently living in the new heavens and earth. How can you get there except by a over spiritualization and metaphorical interpretation of these scriptures related to the new heavens and earth. That "spiritual" interpretation" is a classic example of what Art spoke of. Meanwhile, premill believers don't stand with Israel because oif what they are now but what they will be. Youmight want to take a closer look at Art's tape. He didn't say many things attributed to him in your post.

I apolgize to Greg but I just listened to this tape tonight and I feel like it was not represented properly. I hardily suggest no free for all on this issue. If someone has not watched the tape then I suggest to not be piling on and in because you'll be out of place doing so. I may share my notes from the teaching but that is all. I fully intend to stay civil.

Blessings.

/All I can say is I simply am astounded.

Why were the Judaizers giving Paul a difficult time for teaching about the hope of Israel? What hope was he teaching about that would bring such animosity? Paul would not align himself with Israel of the flesh regarding a physical kingdom and for this he was sorely persecuted. Yet, today we have aligned ourselves with Judaism in this belief when Jesus rejected being made king of an earthly kingdom./

Art would not align himself with Israel of the flesh either because he believed the remnant of Israel that remained after all is said and done and when the Lord returned would be redeemed Isarelites born of the Spirit so as to become the true seed of Abraham. Again, as I noted, it shows me that you still have what I believe to be a basic misunderstanding of premillennialism.

/This teaching has largely taken over Christianity, today and yet we don't see the NT writers preoccupied by it in any way, shape or form and they truly believed the Lord was coming back soon. Doesn't that make you wonder./

What makes me wonder is why a redefined and reinterpreted hermeneutic applied to a very large corpus of OT scriptures, turning them into prophecies to be interpreted metaphorically and figuratively, is seen as a proper way to analyze the writings of the prophets.

/I remain mystified, but carry on, I will not interrupt your conversation again. And thank you for allowing me to challenge your thinking./

You didn't interrupt my conversation at all. Not by any means. I am more than willing to speak about the teaching in "The Theocratic Kingdom." I just don't think you represented properly what Art said. You began by saying he used little scripture when he used scripture through the whole teaching to back his every point. Something was amiss from the start. Challenging one's thinking is fine and okay by me yet one has to properly represent the other party.

Israel is still a special people in God's purposes.

I will address some objections to this view:

"There is no more Jews or Gentiles, slave or master and man or woman in Christ."

Does it mean that there is no more distinction in roles between a slave and a master? Between man and woman? Are they now interchangeable in the New Covenant?

"God has no favoritism."

Surely God has no respecter of persons. But does God has no right to choose whom he will? We often heard of our free will that we always have a choice, how much more God? (Romans 9:11-15) Why does 'God choosing the other over the other' is some sort of offensive to us? (Except when 'you' is the chosen?) Do we really believe that we don't deserve to be saved? That He is the one who choose us and not we?

Matthew 5:5 (KJV)  Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

John 18:36 (KJV)  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Christians are not "of the world" but "in the world", so Jesus prayer to the Father, "Thy kingdom come" is kingdom coming here on earth.

Luke 11:2 (KJV)  And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

Luke 22:30 (KJV)  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 11:15 (KJV)  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Acts 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Try substituting "kingdom" with "church" if it make sence ALL the time.

Luke 21:31 (KJV)  So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Is the kingdom is the church, I don't think this verse proposes that.

Luke 1:33 (KJV)  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

This is New Testament not OT, and an angel is the one who said this

Psalms 22:26-28 (KJV)
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)  I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

This denotes that Christ still future appearing is tied in on the revelation of a future kingdom.

Luke 22:18 (KJV)  For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Revelation 19:15-16 (KJV)
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV)
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Luke 19:11-19 (KJV)
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.
17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.
18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.
19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Psalms 22:27-29 (KJV)
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

Psalms 86:9 (KJV)  All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalms 102:13-16 (KJV)
13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.
14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.
15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.
16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

You wrote,

/I will address some objections to this view:

"There is no more Jews or Gentiles, slave or master and man or woman in Christ."

Does it mean that there is no more distinction in roles between a slave and a master? Between man and woman? Are they now interchangeable in the New Covenant?/

I agree with that and seldom see it expressed. In my opinion, this wrong emphasis has been taken so far as to mean that when a Jewish person comes to Christ he must give up his Jewish identity ethnicity. I don't believe this is what the scriptures meant when they say there is no longer any Jew or Gentile in Christ.

/"God has no favoritism."

Surely God has no respecter of persons. But does God has no right to choose whom he will? We often heard of our free will that we always have a choice, how much more God? (Romans 9:11-15) Why does 'God choosing the other over the other' is some sort of offensive to us? (Except when 'you' is the chosen?) Do we really believe that we don't deserve to be saved? That He is the one who choose us and not we?/

I believe that if God chooses to give Israel a place of prominence (as the chieftest of servants) then why should people chafe if this Israel will be in Christ having embraced the Messiah who atoned for them at the cross? Where does it say that what God does for one nation He is obligated to do for all nations? Yet that doesn't mean any will be turned away. Regarding Israel, if one member rejoices all should rejoice. If one member is honored all are honored.

Musings this AM.

Art is very serious and passionate, he comes across as REAL, If the Scriptures are alluding to a Judeo Centric eschatology than I believe that Art's understanding is the most likely senero. having said that I want to present my objection.

RE: ///why should people chafe if this Israel.......///

I believe that the word chafe was in the sermon,
That is the sort of argumentation that I felt from the sermon, That people who do not except this view, it is because it offends them.

If what was presented is the plan of God than we happily except it !.
But the Scriptures that where used and the Scriptures presented by joliboy, simply have not convinced me (at this time) that it is the correct interputation. (I still need to look into it more)
I have at this time not found any evidence that it is the historical position of any Christian/christian in the early days of the church and the first allusion of a Judeo Centric eschatology that we find : as with what was pointed out : Ishodad of Merv (850 AD)., we find (without hardly searching anything on him) that Judaism seems to have influenced his understanding of certain portions of Scripture. (The context of the influence was not eschatology)

compare what was presented basicly a 'Judeo Centric eschatology' with that of an early interputation such as Dialogue Of Justin Philosopher And Martyr With Trypho

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/bible_books/?view=book&book=36

Greg, it seems that a link you gave for this message in video form is different than the one most people have probably listened to at the top of the Sermonindex home page. It's no real problem but the one I listened to on "The Theocratic Kingdom" by Art, one hour and four minutes long, is not the one I am listening to now. From the beginning it is different. I suppose it was Art on two different occasions speaking on the same subject. So now I'll listen to the rest of the one folks are probably listening to.