Heb.12:28

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we RECEIVING A KINGDOM which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

/Can the Kingdom of God be observed? Jesus says, No!/

Not so fast bro!

31 Even so you, too, when YOU SEE these things happening, recognize that the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR. (Luke 21:31)

If we have fully received the kingdom of God then what did Christ mean when He said WHEN YOU SEE THESE THINGS recognize that the KINGDOM OF GOD is near. It seems to go along with the paradigm which I think is correct, meaning -We have "already" recieved a measure of the kingdom as a down payment but are still receiving. The powers of the age to come have been brought into this age (Heb 6:4-5) so we already are tasting of them yet we have "not yet" recived the full measure of the kingdom which will occur when Christ makes His second advent. Christ said in that day you will kow the kingdom is near by WHAT YOU SEE - "when you see these things happening." So the coming of the kingdom will be observable in that day and it's just as legitimate to associate the coming of the kingdom in that day as to believe that we are already "receiving" the unshakeable kingdom even now.

If nature is restored upon the second advent of Christ then this will be a highly OBSERVABLE aspect of the kingdom of God. What will characterize the kingdom of God in that coming day? Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. The kingdom of God within now, His Spirit joined to our spirit (not observable) resulting in righteousness for us, though not obervable in many ways today (not all but many) will be fully manifest and visible in that day. I can observe and see peace and joy in believers today because of righteousness just as the fruits of righteousness, peace and joy, will be obeservable in that coming day but to a much fuller degree.

Blessings to you Brother Iyke.

/We can observe the character of the King and the Kingdom in His Church/

If Christ make His second advent to earth won't we be able to see Him and His character then?

/The full consummation of the kingdom of God is "reserved for us in heaven", as Peter indicates, below.

1 Peter 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,/

What happens after heaven has received Him?

19 Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

20 - and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,

21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. (Acts 3:19-21)

God had just sent Jesus but we have strong indication here that He will come to earth again after heaven has received Him and a time of restoration begins.

/The only way to "see it", is to be born into it. That is why the Pharisees could not see/observe it./

After "heaven must receive Him until" - isn' it safe to assume He will make His second advent to earth after this and when, according to Jesus WE SEE these things happening that will signal His soon return we will know the KINGDOM OF GOD IS NEAR because of what we "see" (Luke 21:31)

Then the King of the Kingdom will no longer be in heaven. When the restoration of all things occurs will this be in heaven or on earth?

When eventually a new heaven and new earth are created do you think Christ iwll continue to dwell in heaven or on earth? I just don;t quite understand br your seeming aversion to anything earthly being related to the Kingdom of God. The plan of redemption centers around two advents of the Messiah to EARTH. In Romans 8:19-21 Paul spoke openly of the creation being released from its bondage also. Might this be the result of the Kingom of God coming to EARTH in its fullness andnot just remaining in a far away place devoid of anything earthly? WhY the aversion to the physically created order?

I'm just trying to throw out a few things for thought.

"Hebrew thought saw an essential unity between man and nature. The prophets do not think of earth as merely the indifferent theater om which a man carries out his normal task but as the expression of the divine glory. The Old Testament nowhere holds forth the hope of a bodiless, non-material, purely "spiritual” redemption as did Greek thought. The earth is the divinely ordained scene of human existence. Furthermore, the earth has been involved in the evils which sin has incurred. There is an interrelation of nature with the moral life of man; therefore the earth must also share in God's final redemption....The fact that man is a physical creature is not the measure of his sinfulness and therefore a state from which he must be delivered. Rather, the acceptance of his creaturehood and the confession of complete and utter dependence upon the Creator God are essential to man's true existence....Salvation for man does not mean deliverance from creaturehood, for it is not an evil thing but an essential and permanent element of man's true being. Salvation does not mean escape from bodily, creaturely existence. On the contrary, ultimate redemption will mean the redemption of the whole man. For this reason, the resurrection of the body is an integral part of the biblical hope."

(G. E. Ladd, "The Presence of the Future" (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1974). 59-60; also pp.63-64.)

Similarly, from a Hebrew Christian perspective, Baruch Maoz commented:

"It is true that redemption from sin is not to be conceived of in terms that are primarily material. On this point the New Testament is as clear as the Old, though much more emphatic. But salvation is not to be thought of as exclusively spiritual and moral, as if Israel's living in the land had no moral implications! The gospel message is replete with appreciation for the material realm. The New Testament makes it quite clear that the material is the arena in which ultimate salvation is to take place (Rom 8:18-25). thus reconfirming Old Testament expectation. Even our bodies are to be redeemed."

(B Maoz, "People, land and Torah: A Jewish Christian perspective,” in The Land of Promise (ed. P. Johnston and P. Walker; Downer's Grove, Ill.; InterVarsity, 2000), 196.)

"The gospel message is replete with appreciation for the material realm. The New Testament makes it quite clear that the material is the arena in which ultimate salvation is to take place (Rom 8:18-25). thus reconfirming Old Testament expectation. Even our bodies are to be redeemed."

Amen! Christ and the Hebrews before and after His day knew nothing of the it will all be a spiritual kingdom devoid of anything material or earthly.

The Redemption of Spirituality and Materiality

"In rejecting the Platonic/Augustinian eschatological dichtomy between inferior, earthly materiality and superior, heavenly spirituality, the preferred alternative of both earthly materialty and heavenly spirituality in holy union should be carefully understood. Craig Blaising describes this essential distinction in the millennial debate in a manner that is well worth consideration at this juncture. He speaks of "Two Models of Eternal Life," the "Spiritual Vision Model," which is the presupposition or "preunderstanding" of amillennialism, and the "New Creation Model," which is the presupposition of premillennialism. The Spiritual Vision Model, understands the "final state of the resurrected" as being in heaven. Advocates of this view base it not only on 'biblical themes,"

"but also on cultural ideas common to the classical philosophical tradition. That tradition has contributed to the spiritual vision model in three basic convictions: (1) a basic contrast between spirit and matter; (2) an identification of spirit with mind or intellect; and (3) a belief that eternal perfection entails the absence of change. Central to all three of these is the classical tradition's notion of an ontological hierarchy in which spirit is located at the top of a descending order of being. Elemental matter occupies the lowest place. In the spiritual vision of eternity, heaven is the highest level of ontological reality. It is the realm of spirit as opposed to base matter. This is the destiny of the saved, who will exist in that non earthly, spiritual place as spiritual beings engaged eternally in spiritual activity....Following the classical tradition's identification of spirit with mind or intellect, the spiritual model views eternal life primarily as cognitive, meditative, or contemplative. With this point of emphasis, the place or realm of eternal life is really a secondary or inconsequential matter. In its essential reality, eternal life is a state of knowing [God]."

On the other hand, the "New Creation Model"

"draws on biblical texts that speak of a future everlasting kingdom, of a new earth and the renewal of life on it, of bodily resurrection (especially of the nature of Christ's resurrection body), of social and even political concourse among the redeemed. The new creation model expects that the ontological order and scope of eternal life is essentially continuous with that of present earthly life except for the absence of sin and death. Eternal life for redeemed human beings will be an embodied life on earth (whether the present earth or a wholly new earth), set within a cosmic structure such as we have presently. It is not a timeless, static existence but rather an unending sequence of life and lived experiences. It does not reject physicality or materiality, but affirms them as essential both to a holistic anthropology and to the biblical idea of a redeemed creation."

In other words concerning this more biblical perspective, materiality is not ultimately to be transcended, but rather transformed. Such a transformation is to be the rebirth that ushers in "the Messianic age [palingenesia, "regeneration"], when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne...judging the 12 tribes of Israel" (Matt 19:28). Then there will be a "new heaven and a new earth" (Isa 65:17, 66:22), that is, a spiritually renewed earth and cosmic order. Through the triumph of sovereign grace, both human and nonhuman aspects of creation, animate and inanimate, will be greatly blessed beyond the state of things prior to the transgression of Adam and Eve.

(Future Israel - "Why Christian Anti-Judaism Must Be Challenged" - Horner, B&H Academic, Nashville, TN, p 213-214)

I personally favor the New Creation Model which I believe is more inline wirth the Hebrew world view which is the prism through which the scriptures were written. Comments welcome and thank you Greg for your comments.

/He will "create" a new heavens and earth in the end for the kingdom of God to dwell.

It is really beyond us as humans to understand these things fully. But what a wonderful picture of God's plan for His children and citizens of His kingdom, what a privilege to know Christ and be counted an heir!/

Yes and Amen!

David-

In your view, what is he timing of the creation of the new heavens and earth?

I sense that you read right through my comments and their main focus and went instead to a quick gotcha question. I'm sure you already know what my answer would be so the asking is a bit of a quick skirting by anything brought up in the article.

What about what I discussed and provided some corollary comments to? I'm sincerely interested in why criticism of any future for Israel as a redeemed earthly nation being an intergral part of the Kingdom of God when it comes in its fullness is many times based on the notion that this can't be because the earthly realm is entirely inferior to the spiritual realm, As Hebrews 12:28 mentions, when all things have been shaken once more and the unshakeable Kingdom has come in its fullness will it be a entirely spiritual existence or will it involve any earthly aspects?

Meanwhile, I like your thread on Genesis.

Blessings.

Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

This is an exhortation, that points to the only means by which one finds salvation, and the means is Christ. To break it down into 3 parts, part 1 states.....

"Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved" refers to :

Heb 12:22
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The heavenly Jerusalem is unshakeable because it is founded on the Word of God. The general assembly and church represent those who have come through the Word of God and find themselves, in spirit, growing in unity with the Father and the Son.

Part 2:

"let us have grace,"

This part of the exhortation points to the source, from which all those who have found themselves in the "heavenly Jerusalem", who have come to understand the means by which God works to perfect those who have entered in.

Earlier in this section of Scripture we find this "grace" mentioned:

Heb 12:15
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

"the grace of God" is the means by which God roots out the corruption which Satan has sowed in the hearts of men. "the grace of God" is the means by which God heals those who find Him. So we are to continue to search out the "grace of God" so that we may grow to love Him more and more each day. The source of this love for Him comes to those who continue in the relationship that He has established between you and His Son Jesus.

Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Jesus is the source by which God saves man. The work of Jesus is the grace by which men find how to love God and one another. The work of Jesus is the wisdom of God sent into the hearts of men so that man can recognize his own failings, his own corruption sown by the works of Satan. When man sees the ugliness of his own heart brought out into the light, when God shows him this ugliness, man's heart is filled with shame. He wants to hide, but there is no escape. Man is without ability to rid himself of shame. Only Jesus can remove the shame. Only Jesus can show a man where to walk to discover God's way of doing things in His creation. He is the author and finisher of our faith.

Part 3

"whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:"

So part one speaks about all those who have found Christ. Part two exhorts us to continue to seek God's grace that is found in the work of Jesus. And part 3 now points to the fruit that is produced in those who are being sanctified by the work of Jesus.

The following verse says that we must be careful not to "refuse" Jesus who speaks to us.

Heb 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

As commentary on the above verse, we find:

Heb 12:5
And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:6
For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

Heb 12:7
If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb 12:11
Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

So in context of Hebrews 12, the means by which," we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:" is described in Heb 12:5-11. And the source of this work is found in God's grace.

/Because, it is simply not scriptural! God is not redeeming an earthly nation. He is redeeming people out of the nations. God has redeemed Jews out of all the nations and will continue to do that. They don't have to go to a geographical place on earth to be redeemed./

Well I declare julius bro! Who would have ever thunk it? God is redeeming people out of nations and has redeemed Jew out of all nations before this. Man that is remarkable insight! Where have I been all this time?

/They don't have to go to a geographical place on earth to be redeemed./

Well, ha, maybe you should think of publishing that astonishing piece of wisdom. It's so rich in insight it might send waves through the body of Christ. A bit of well intentioned sarcasm obviously but the juvenile nature of your statements serves as a catalyst.

Meawnwhile, bro, where did I or any premill teacher ever say that Jews had to go to a special geographical place to be redeemed? And if every person in a nation was to become saved would it be legitimate to refer to that nation as a "redeemed nation?"

/2 Peter 3:10-13
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness./

But you've stated we are already living in the new heavens and new earth. Pretty profoundly confusing to me!

/Our lively hope it's not an earthly kingdom, it is reserved in heaven for us./

Yet what will happen when Christ leaves heaven and makes His second advent to earth? Why will He return to a PHYSICAL EARTH if the whole nine yards is to occur in heaven? Will the Kingdom of God be entirely spiritual then and devoid of anything earthly and material? Anybody home?

/We are not "hasting" for the millennium but rather the day of God.

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?/

If these things, the fervent heat etc., have to occur before the new heavens and earth appear how can you then say we are already living in the new heavens and earth?

/I know this makes people sad because the Jewish nation is not going to get their kingdom on earth with a nationalistic deliverer, but that was never God's intention as we see in the Old and New testaments. We know the Jews always thought this and still do, but that is part of their partial blindness that keeps them from seeing Christ as a spiritual deliverer and the kingdom of God as a spiritual KINGDOM, Zion as a spiritual city and the "better country", that Abraham sought and all Christians seek. This is why Jesus Christ is the Rock of offense and a stumbling block. The question is, why don't SOME Christians understand this?/

You seem to have lost sight of the mystery of redemption which we now know involves two advents of the Messiah to Israel. He came to Israel, left and will return again to Israel. Part of the mystery (one hidden but now revealed) is that Gentiles were then included as part of the body of Christ by faith instead of at the Day of the Lord as was commonoly expected. Ephe 3:6 explains a basic part of the mystery. But this aspect is built around two comings of the Messiah to0 Israel and not one. How then can Israel be left out of even the most simplest analysis of the scriptures concerning the second advent of Christ? The question to me is why many Christians can't or refuse to understand this.

You say,

- Christ is a spiritual deliverer
- The kingdom of God is a spiritual KINGDOM
- Zion is a spiritual city
- The "better country" is spiritual in nature

I believe all of that but yet I'm sure my statement to that effect will go in one of your ears and out the other quickly. I'm speaking from experience.

/Question: We know that Christ's kingdom is on earth right now in the manifestation of His Body, with Him being Head over His Body (government upon His shoulders, Isaiah 9:6). What are the theological implications to NT doctrine if one were to accept the doctrine of Christ, physically establishing one nation on earth as His kingdom? What positive or negative impact does this have with the NT scriptures? How does this thought synchronize with scriptures I posted above and all other NT scriptures?/

I nor any premill teacher has ever tuaght that after Christ makes His second advent that the Kingdom of God will be established in and limited to one nation. Julius, it's clear to me again that you don't understand premillennialism and are just offering up common caricatures and knee jerk reactions of a sort. I'll say it again, you just don't understand the nuances and more importantly many of the basic details and fine points of that which you are almost at the point of obsession in opposing. Your comments that Jews don't need to go to a geographical lcation to be saved underlines my point here.Plus your obvious belief that premill teaches the Kingdom of God will be established in one nation. It's really no use to continue if you have been around so long and don't understand the absurdity and untruth in your statement. How can you claim to have listened to Art's teaching and then make a statment like that? It shows you haven't really been trying. If it wasn't such a serious misrepresentation it would be almost comical. Find about what the other side really believe is what I would recommend. You've got some of it right but in MUCH you are still wrong or uninformed or whatever the best word would be.

Meanwhile, the central question you have danced all around is if the kingdom of God is entirely spiritual whu is Christ going to return to the physical earthly nation from whence He left. Why does it say in that day the knowel;dge of the Lord will cover the EARTH like the waters cover the sea? My question is why does the Kingdom of God being entirely spiritual as you say seem to automatically nullify any earthly aspect of the natural order being part of the Kingdom of God. Is creation maybe "crass" and "evil" and "inferior" according to your view? That is what I wanted to discuss. What happens when Christ leaves the heavenly sanctuary of heaven and makes His second advent to earth to Israel? If you reply there is no evidence He will return to Israel then all I can say is that doesn't suprise me.

I've likely spouted off a little here but juvenile statements and assumptions cause such replies to a degree. So I apologize but please go and get somewhat better informed about that which you have such disdain for. You're not even in the ballpark many times and any future coversations would go better if you would dig harder and become better informed. I say that not just because of today but from past posts and replies also. Sorry to seem or be uppity but that's just where I am this Sunday afternoon.

Peace abd blessings. I'm through for now.

The Forum Guidelines are looking better and better to me. Maybe I can get them into my inner person. I'm sure going to try.

Peace bro.

I thought this thread was about:

Heb 12:28
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

And the question posed, how does this Scripture fit into the context of Chapter 12 of Hebrews?

What does the Chapter 12 say about "serving God acceptably with reverence and godly fear"?

David-

My question of when you think the new heavens and earth will be created was simply intended to clarify.

I think there is only the "1000 year" issue that separates your view and mine. I don't believe we are currently in the new heavens and earth. I think when Jesus returns that is the 1st thing he does after rapturing the Church. Then we will return to the new earth for all eternity.

I just can't comprehend a scenario where Jesus is ruling on the earth over unconverted sinners. But I don't want to assume that you believe this; you may not. I thought the traditional premillennial position is that there will be unbelievers on the earth during the millennium.

It just so happens that a week ago at our home prayer group the entire 12th chapter of Hebrews was read and we had a good discussion regarding the whole chapter and Hebrew 12:28 also. If I can find the time maybe I can pull some of th points of discussion out of my memory and share them a bit. I will try and do that about this excellent chapter in the Lord's grand word.

I'll try and get back to you soon. Maybe I could at a somewhat leisurely pace for both of us address a point at a time.

Are you residing in Canada by the way?

Thanks bro.

It's not a hard passage to grasp.
"We new testament believers have not come to Mount Sinai where the law was given to Moses but we have come to Mount Zion. We have come to the City of the living God. The city of the living God cannot be shaken because it is God's residence. Mount Sinai was on the earth. It was created. It is a physical place, earthly. and it will eventually be removed at the close of time. When God spoke to Moses on that Mountain, the whole place was vibrating and shaken. but now we Christians have not to that Mount. We are receiving a kingdom that cannot be moved or shaken like Mount Sinai was. We have come to God himself ,to the domain of just spirit beings and not to Moses. We are receiving a powerful kingdom. And we shall receive it completely when the Lord comes".