I have a question:
Does anyone consider this scripture a two-fold prophetic scripture? In other words, it came true in 70AD and it will come true again, just before the Lord comes back?
Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
I have a question:
Does anyone consider this scripture a two-fold prophetic scripture?
I certainly don't! But Jeff does. He wrote in another thread,
"Jerusalem will again be surrounded by armies (is already surrounded by Islamic nations that hate Israel & will be surrounded by their armies one day again on a much larger scope/scale. And 70 AD was a picture of what's to come. The first installment. But the eventual final apocalyptic fulfillment just before the Day of the LORD is still to come & this one will reconcile ALL the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse, Daniel (where Jesus is actually quoting from in Matthew 24), & all the rest of the prophets. So it was "a fulfillment" but not THE Final fulfillment."
Ok, so what is the posture of the Church towards Israel when Israel is surrounded by armies?
Does the Church just pray and intercede for them or do they get involved, physically, somehow?
What has been the posture of the Church the last 40 years and what level of involvement is the Church supposed to have from a physical and scriptural point of view when the nation of Israel is assaulted?
Brother,
Many try and point to Nero as the partial or full fulfillment of this passage. I believe it is stretching passages in Daniel and in the Gospels to make it fit with Nero. "compassed with armies" is plural so it seems as if many nations will come against the jewish people and particularly jerusalem.
Also brother, I believe this subject has been discussed too much in the current few weeks so I will ask you to please put it to rest for a time and try and find things in the Scripture and on this website that can encourage your daily walk with the Lord.
In the beginning of the passage in Luke 21 it says:
8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and uprisings, do not be frightened.
We can take heed to this and receive encouragement to not be deceived or be caught up in fear.
And later on I believe a very important exhortation we all need to heed is:
34 "Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. 35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. 36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”
No, this is a new discussion, Greg. I am trying to ascertain if Christians today believe in running from carnal aggression as Jesus indicated or do they believe in taking up arms to safeguard what they say is God's physical nation, Israel?
I think the scriptures are clear that our battle is not carnal and we risk losing our soul if we think we are doing God's bidding to go to war against carnal enemies of carnal Israel or any carnal/earthly country for that matter.
I would like to know if anyone that believes in God bringing His spiritual kingdom to carnal Israel and saving everyone all at once, believe that He will do it Himself or the Church will be engaged by God to engage Israel's enemies, militarily. I know John Hagee and his followers believe this. Do other millennialists believe this.
Greg, you are a millenialist, right? Do you believe the Church is supposed to take up arms to defend carnal Israel? (by carnal, I mean earthly nation).
This scripture twisting to demonize Israel and God's eternal purpose for them is back in full force. They are not so subtle any longer, they are no longer camouflaging their venom toward the seed of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob.
I am of the seed of Abraham, how could I hate my own?
My question remains. I will make is simple and to the point:
Is the Church prophesied to take up carnal arms to execute the vengeance of the Lord?
Neil you posted this:
"In the past 6 months , a fell and dark spirit has come over this forum, I speak the truth in Christ. It manifests itself in all the "-ism's and -ist's", "doctrines", "theologies"....in putting up MAN MADE "fence lines" between "old and new Testaments", appropriating....no...nay, outright thievery of God's blessings and curses, attaching curses to the Vine, and stealing blessings to Ingrafted Vines, of parsing Portions of Scripture to make MAN....."right in their OPINIONS"..."
Sad but true.
These foxes are attempting destroy the vine located here on SI and if left unchecked will .......... but this need not be.
You have a rebel on this website, with an "agenda"...singular, almost as if he was being whipped along by something truly unholy.
FIRST, he makes an OP that is designed to be incendiary, as has been his wont for many months now.
then you, in all meekness, make a very simple request:
"Also brother, I believe this subject has been discussed too much in the current few weeks so I will ask you to please put it to rest for a time and try and find things in the Scripture and on this website that can encourage your daily walk with the Lord."
and instead of complying, the poster in question, shoots this right back at you:
"No, this is a new discussion, Greg.".....and even serves as a sort of neo-inquisitor to you, by almost asking/demanding;
"Greg, you are a millenialist, right? Do you believe the Church is supposed to take up arms to defend carnal Israel? (by carnal, I mean earthly nation). "
Greg, it seems like he's baiting YOU, who have labored thru two decades.
Back in the day, if someone had "agenda" and was not submissive to forum leadership?....their posting privileges were ended.
Frankly, I believe the poster in question was SENT to both throw the forum into an uproar and/or destroy the witness.
To Julius:
And the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round.
It seems like a lot of these straw men & banana peels have been explained at tremendous length before. There's either a problem in communication, an inability to hear & listen without a block, or something else.
I'm not taking up any arms except the weapons of our warfare in the scriptures, & the armor of God, to pRay & intercede.
Respectfully, why not post something occasionally the Lords doing in your life, something showing the fruit of the "Kingdom of God within", etc. These same old controversial posts on the same thing over and over and over again? If you say I've done it too, it was in response to the onslaught & not being able to sit & watch it anymore. But even when others go quiet, you keep bringing it up, keep coming, keep laying false things at the feet of those who disagree with your view. What's driving/motivating you bro?
Even when people answer all the questions, it's as if you don't hear & then regroup to come back again with the same stuff sooner or later? For someone who doesn't believe at all in a "material" kingdom, but only a "spiritual kingdom within" - What is God doing in your life? How is your theology affecting your Orthaproxy?
God Bless,
Jeff
Julias,
Bro Greg has asked you to change the subject. Some folks live for controversy. When it is clearly not edifying and has resulted in the locking of many threads and has resulted in a bad spirit between brothers. why do your persist? Tell you what Julias, why not share your testimony here? Tell us how you came to know Jesus, how you love Him and perhaps some testimony of how He has blesses you over the years. I believe this would be edifying............bro Frank
Apollus, you probably missed it, but I already agreed with docs that we are both going to stop commenting on these threads.
Obviously. When Messiah came the first time, he did not deal with Rome. The Jews cried, "We'll have no king but Caesar"
When messiah returns he comes to smash the image of Daniel; the continuation of the Roman Empire, and this time he will deliver Israel from Rome. The Vatican is busy buying up property in the area of the old temple and it's not for a tourist attraction. This is your year of mercy says Rome. Obviously there is something afoot.
It's similar to the account of Joseph in Egypt when he finally revealed himself to his brothers. Reconciliation.
The Jews go to great length to protect their brothers, but don't hear the cries of their brother Joseph (Jesus). They will look upon him who they (caused to be) pierced. There must come a reconciliation first. Paul said, " I beseech you brethren be reconciled to Christ"
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Tell you what Julias, why not share your testimony here? Tell us how you came to know Jesus, how you love Him and perhaps some testimony of how He has blesses you over the years. I believe this would be edifying
I second this request, it would be wonderful to hear how your soul come to know the Saviour.
And to answer the main point hopefully of your question, the Gospels nor our Lord ever give us justification to hurt another person but rather forgive, bless, love and die for.
Neil is right,
It's not just an SI thing, I belong to a few Hi-End Audio sites and there are some that are simply combative and unless they are given a time out or are tossed they disrupt everything. One forum that was once very popular is now nothing but tumble weeds because of a few guys that operated exactly like rogues.
Brother J I reached out to you personally and in kindness, your wisdom is not from above.
Marc mc
Thank you very much for your reply, Greg.
I also believe that. His life in us would rather suffer persecution and death than inflict the same on others.
My testimony is in the Word so I'll start with this:
He brought me up out of an horrible pit, out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings. And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters. He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me. For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears. He hath delivered my soul in peace from the battle that was against me. Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct me, and withheldest not thy manna from my mouth, and gavest me water for my thirst. Thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth. I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord. I will be glad and rejoice in thy mercy: for thou hast considered my trouble; thou hast known my soul in adversities;
And hast not shut me up into the hand of the enemy: thou hast set my feet in a large room. I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.
Details of my old life tend to give glory to the enemy.
Hi Julias, I agree that details of our old life can and often does give the enemy to much platform time. That is why it is good to hear details of our new life. Yet I was hoping to hear in your own words the circumstances surrounding you being saved and how He has changed you over the however many years it has been since you were saved. That might be a good place to start, how long have you been saved? I was saved at the age of 26 and I am 52.................bro Frank
Luke 21:20-24
20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
verse 22: For this is the time of punishment.
verse 24: Jews are taken prisoners and Jerusalem will be trampled by the gentiles ....... until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled.
In 70 AD Jerusalem was desolated.... a time of punishment..., but prophecy does not end there.
Joel 3:1-2 "In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning My inheritance, My people Israel, for they scattered My people among the nations and divided up My land.”
This is the day of redemption.
Romans 11:25-27
v25: I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part.... until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; He will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
V25: "Israel has experienced partial hardening", is Israel
in this verse pertains to the church?
Hi Apollus,
As pearls are, the testimony the Lord has given to me is precious. I have been ridiculed, belittled, slandered and accused by NDY, Rev_Enue and Neil. (And of course I am constantly reminded those types of attacks are not condoned, here). With those three in mind, who attack with impunity, this may not be a good environment in which to cast my pearls. I simply cannot trust the three amigos getting to know me more intimately. I'm sorry, but I trust you understand.
This discussion is locked.
