28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."I have been wondering about this statement for years. What does it mean? Sounds like Jesus is saying that He would be coming back very soon.Can anyone shed some light?Bub
In the synoptic gospels, this passage is always immediately followed by the transfiguration on the mount. Many scholars therefore teach that the transfiguration of Christ was the fulfillment of this statement.We don't have all the information about what went on when Christ was transfigured and met with Elijah and Moses on the mount. For this reason many argue that it is reasonable, by virtue of the consistent chronological portrayal of these two events across the synoptic gospels, to assume that one fulfills the other.One might also make a case for the fulfillment as being a prophesy about what John would see and eventually record as the book of the revelation of Jesus Christ. There, in a vision John did live to see the Son of Man coming in His "heavenly" kingdom.I believe the chronological consistency between the gospels gives weight to the fulfillment on the mount position, yet I don't discount John's vision. The Lord showed Peter not only that he -would- die before Christ returned, but also by which death he would glorify Christ. Peter and John at least knew that Christ wasn't coming back soon - at least not in Peter's lifetime.Dan/\\/\\/\\
Romans 14:17 says that the kingdom of God is righteousness, heart peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Did not this occur on Pentecost? Did Jesus not say go and preach that the kingdom of God is at hand? So many are waiting for the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem will come. But we need not wait for it to enter into the kingdom of God. To often we try to make the bible say what we have been told is good theology. It often keeps us from enjoying what God has for us now. Slip into His Spirit and let the kingdom unfold in your heart. It's an unforgettable flood of cleansing, joy, and worship.
The problem with your explaination of Matt is this passage:Mark 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." Bubbguy
Lahry,Is the kingdom only in the heart? And isSlip into His Spirit and let the kingdom unfold in your heart. an appropriate way to describe the new birth? It sounds so casual... Bub, Mark 13:30 "Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." According to the next verses, we have a task anyway, whether or not the previously described 'these things' come to pass during our individual times on earth: Mark 13:31 "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. 32 " But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 "Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is. So, here's a clue to 'generation'. This might help you a little more, to tune into what He's getting at.Matthew 1:1a The book of the generation of Jesus Christ There are other references to 'generation' or, the meaning of 'generation' in the New Testament. Maybe (Bub?) you can find one or two more?
Dorcas,I'll look into it. But what you are saying is that 'generation' is used as a figurative or metaphorical word and is not intented to be literal. I would agree on this, that there is much in the Bible that has underlying or hidden meaning and is not intended to be literal. I interpret Genesis this way, as well, and thus I don't see evolution and Genesis to be in conflict. But many SI participants strongly disagree with this point of view. I won't go there because I have already presented this in past posts and there is no point in beating the dead horse, so to speak. How do you go about interpreting the Bible; literally, figuratively, both??? Some is clearly an historical record; Leviticus etc. begat, begat, etc. Some is allegorical. How do you decide? How is the novice reader to decide?Bub
Bubba,But what you are saying is that 'generation' is used as a figurative or metaphorical word and is not intented to be literal. I quoted 'the generation of Jesus Christ'. Why would this be 'figurative'?When Matthew wrote that, was he talking about the literal 'generation of Jesus Christ', meaning 'of the Man Who was born', then? I believe he was. Jesus Christ really was born. I hope we agree on this, specifically. Please make it clear if you do not.Assuming you are agreed that Jesus Christ was a real Man on the earth - the Word made Flesh - what was He here to do? (I mean the whole thing, not just preaching and miracles.If you don't mind, I'm going to stick with your original question, and I think the answers to your questions about literal, figurative and metaphorical etc. will become clearer - at least, what I think may become clearer to you.)
Hey Dorcas.Not sure what you mean by the generation of Jesus. My generation, being born in 1957, are those people born around that time. I don't doubt that Jesus was born and lived and taught as a mystical Rabbi. But my understanding of His generation would be those born at or near the same time as He. It becomes a figurative or metaphorical word with any other meaning applied, such as all of those people who belong to Him, down through the ages.Is this your understanding?Bub
My generation, being born in 1957, are those people born around that time.Yes! As humans, we think about 'time'. When, we think back to the 'time' of Jesus, the Word made Flesh, and we can forget ...John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Are you (Bub) happy now to add the eternal aspect of 'the generation of Jesus Christ', to your understanding?
dorcas,I am happy to add the eternal aspect but nonetheless it is an allegorical definition of the word because it is a "figurative representation in which the meaning is conveyed symbolically." (Websters)Bub
Hi Bub,Sorry. You're beginning to lose me slightly.What is 'a "figurative representation in which the meaning is conveyed symbolically" ' in Webster's? (Webster's is a dictionary, I believe.) Please answer fully, as I'm getting the strong impression you believe eternity is unreal in fact, merely a concept to describe something it would take too 'long' (in 'time') to represent effectively - perhaps like a mathematical definition of infinity.Is that anyways close?
Dorcas:Definition of 'Generation': (Websters dictionary)a single succession in natural descent; people of the same period; relation between God the Father and God the Son; relation between God and man. you are adding another dimension and meaning to the definition when you expand 'generation' to be eternal, in the context that it is presented."that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done"The 'generation' in question is that of the listeners at hand. If it was the eternal 'generation' of Jesus (whatever that means), what would be the point of the saying at all? because of course all things would come to pass before that 'unending' generation would expire. The passage makes no sense interpreted that way. its a stretch and becomes an allegory: "a figurative manner of treating a subject by the use of other terms analogous in properties or circumstances."Bub
Hello again Bub,If it was the eternal 'generation' of Jesus (whatever that means), what would be the point of the saying at all? because of course all things would come to pass before that 'unending' generation would expire.Exactly! :-PActually, I think you've just touched on the truth of both what I've been getting at and what Jesus meant - that this is the only way to make sense of His words. Going back to the 'time' in which Jesus's earthly life was set, Pentecost happened only 10 days after He ascended to heaven. Therefore, all the people that He has told 'this generation shall not pass' were right in on the first wave of the generation by the Holy Spirit (new birth), which has not really stopped, since then.Just for the record, He had already appeared with Moses and Elijah, and also said things like 'before Abraham was, I am' - 'Abraham rejoiced to see My day' (John 8) - all of which more than suggest these men were already connected with the Son of God in His eternal perspective 'now', meaning when Jesus was the Word made Flesh, but no less 'now', meaning 'now' (2005).Romans 815 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; Hebrews 29 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified [are] all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.John 524 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. The passage makes no sense interpreted that way.I feel this last statement is not your spiritual intelligence speaking, it is the natural mind - the same natural mind which caused the disciples to puzzle over Jesus's words, until the day of Pentecost. Then all of a sudden, they were able to translate their understanding (from Jesus having expounded the scriptures to them between the Resurrection and the Ascension) into meaningful action and exposition.What Jesus had told their 'time'-bound generation was because unlike us, who have heard of the Holy Spirit and what happened on the day of Pentecost, they had no idea what was coming! But didn't it make them hungry for answers? Yet, even though crowds had followed Jesus for healing and miracles such as the feeding of the 5000, when it came to 'eating' His word, they turned away and left - all except the disciples. John 666 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. (eternal generation?)I don't know why you would reject this meaning of 'this generation', when it so obviously applies to literally thousands of them, in fact? It is us who are joining them as members of the family of God's children in fact. And there is nothing allegorical, metaphorical, figurative or symbolic about it - which is not to say there is no allegory, metaphor, figure or symbol in scripture - just not with reference to this verse, imho.
circular reasoning, you lost me.
you guys are getting off topic.
OK - Here's the original question.Hi Bubba, :-)I've put a few more scriptures together here, with certain emphases but please read every word of them, too. If you don't agree with the scriptures, that's a different discussion from disagreeing with my understanding of them.28I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."I have been wondering about this statement for years. What does it mean? Sounds like Jesus is saying that He would be coming back very soon. Can anyone shed some light?Jesus said the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 1721 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. One could further discuss whether the only kingdom to which He was referring, was the kingdom of God within you. I accept there remains unfulfilled prophecy regarding Israel. So, I'm concentrating on the meaning of that statement for those who would have died physically during the first 120 years after Christ, and on the truth that Jesus tasted death for us all. It is inevitable that those who are asleep in Christ when those who remain are caught up to join Him in the air, will be all 'in Christ' when certain prophecies are fulfilled. (1 Thes 4:17) This is yet another discussion, which I'm not qualified to tackle.Hebrews 2Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. I've previously quoted this verse, but 'taste death' was not highlighted, because I was showing that believers are of the same generation as Jesus Christ (a verse or two later). 2 Timothy 1the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: I believe the word 'appearing' is also a matter which believers embrace as we 'eat' His word, 'walk in the Spirit', are 'made to drink into one Spirit' and suffer 'in the flesh' that we should cease from sin, putting off the 'old man' that we may put on the 'new man'. By these means we seek to find the 'appearing' of Jesus Christ 'in us'. 1 John 4:2 refers to the confession that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh as a test of spirits, '3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God'. (KJV)1 John 32 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. John 521 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens [them]; even so the Son quickens whom he will. 22 For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all [men] should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honours not the Son honours not the Father which has sent him. 24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but IS passed from death unto life. (emphasis mine)It is important to note the use of the present tense by Jesus. He is not saying that one day when our bodies die, we will pass into life, He is saying that we pass into life through believing NOW.John 318 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1 John 314 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not [his] brother abideth in death. Colossians 28 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. I believe the 'some who are standing here [who] will not taste death' believed and those who did not believe, tasted death for themselves and will face a different sort of judgment. Again, this is a different study.
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