Seeking advice. A pastor preached replacement theology and broke my heart.

A

AlmostHome May 4, 2016

I don't want to post this. I waited but my heart is broken and I need some advice.

Just before joining SI, I listened to a sermon by a very well-known pastor. I think it's safe to say that we all know and most of us love him. He's someone I've long looked up to. I don't want to mention his name because he's a beloved and Godly man and I don't want to speak directly against him.

During this sermon, he got a little heated (as pastors are inclined to do in their passion) and started preaching replacement theology in regards to promises of God! My jaw dropped, my heart broke and I had to turn the sermon off and just weep.

I am adamantly opposed and firmly reject replacement theology! So, now I don't know what to do regarding this pastor. It's the first thing I've ever heard from him that I vehemently reject. Other disagreements have been minor and haven't interfered with my listening to him. But, I don't know if I should continue to because replacement theology is just so very wrong.

Any scriptural, Godly advice would be very welcomed. I went back to the sermon and transcribed what he said (in context with the promises) in order to give as much information as possible.

He spoke about God's promises in Jeremiah 32:38-40, "They shall be My people, and I will be their God; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me."

Pastor speaking:

"You can not work up the fear of God. God says, 'I will put My fear in your hearts that you will not turn away from Me!' That's God! That is His covenant to you and to me as believers. Listen to it. I will put My fear in you. I'll make an everlasting agreement with you that I'll never turn away from doing you good. I'll put My fear in you that you shall never depart from Me. I'm going to do you good! The new covenant is nothing but the good news of God!

It gets better, in Ezekiel 36:25-27. "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

God says, 'You're going to keep My commandments! You're going to keep My law! Not on your own strength, but I'm going to give you My Spirit and My Spirit will enable you to fulfill everything that brings you to obedience! The new covenant demands perfect obedience. You can't do it on your own, only through the power of the Holy Ghost. He says, 'I'll put My Spirit in you.' Glory be to God!

You say, 'But, brother ******, that's just for Israel. It's for the house of Israel because it says 'I'll take you out from among the heathen and bring you into your own land.'

How many of you have been brought out from among the heathen? How many of you have been brought into the good land, the land of faith? That's exactly what it is, to the fulness of Christ!

Do I have to go over again what we've been teaching you about two Israels? There's the Israel of the flesh and the Israel of the Spirit. There's an Israel of God and we are the Israel of God, those of us who trust in the cross of Jesus Christ. There are two kinds of Jews. There's the natural Jew who is not really the seed of Abraham because of their unbelief. The scripture makes it very, very clear that... 'Know ye therefore that they who are of faith, they are the children of Abraham.' They who are of faith. He's not a Jew as one physically the Bible says, he's one who is one spiritually. One who has been circumcised not with hands but by the Spirit of God!

Do we have to go over that? We know that don't we? This is for the true Israel! This is for US! These promises are not for an unconverted Jewish nation, it is for the Jerusalem which is from above - the true Israel of faith, hallelujah! You are a Jew by faith! You are a Zionian by faith!"

D

dolfan May 4, 2016

Brother, that doesn't sound like replacement theology to me at all.

He may be teaching it, but it isn't fully apparent in that snippet.

There are two Israels, a natural Israel (for whom God still has a plan to redeem some -- the same plan He has for us, which is Jesus Christ -- and I believe He will do so in the sense of a natural, identifiable race of people we know as Israel/Jews), and there is a spiritual Israel (believers in Christ, grafted into the promise of God through Jesus, the seed of Abraham, and in Whom the remnant of natural Israel will be grafted in -- their own tree, their own hope, their own Messiah). It is not replacement. It is redemption.

If this preacher somewhere goes on to say things about Israel only refers to the church after Pentecost or other similar statements, then he might be into the whole replacement theology/supercessionism thing. But, I wouldn't be heartbroken yet.

I get heartbroken from preachers I enjoy, too, sometimes.

A

AlmostHome May 4, 2016

Thanks for your reply, Tim. I completely understand the whole spiritual/natural Israel thing. And I admit that I'm not thoroughly informed on the entire doctrine of replacement theology, but from my understanding, whenever someone says that Christians are the "true Israel", it sounds like a huge red flag to me. I also know that God's promises are for us, too, unless they're specifically directed towards Israel. Like in becoming a nation again, for example.

What I transcribed is all I've ever heard this pastor say about the subject. That last paragraph is what I haven't been able to reconcile yet.

T

TMK May 4, 2016

Keith- if that Pastor upset you so would the apostle Paul:

Romans 9:6-8 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, "In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.

It seems that this is what the pastor was saying.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

"Keith"

David Wilkerson was not infallible and on Israel he was mostly wrong.
(especially in his later days)

I also know who you are "Keith"

A

AlmostHome May 4, 2016

Then I am very happy that I misunderstood what was being said! Like I said, nothing else this pastor has ever said has raised any red flags to give me any cause to be concerned in the past. I have no problem with correction and admitting I'm wrong. In this case, I'm ecstatic to be the wrong one!

Replacement theology is something I don't have much experience with. It's never been preached by those I've listened to. Whenever I heard people warning against it, key phrases would pop-up like "the TRUE Israel," how the Jews of today aren't real Jews, and how the church has replaced Israel in God's eyes. So, when I heard this pastor say things that sounded very similar to this, it raised red flags.

So, let this thread illustrate two warnings for all:

1. It illustrates the dangers of being a Lone Ranger Christian. See my testimony in a thread called "Prayer Request with Testimony and Warnings" in the Miracles That Follow the Plow forum. I'm coming out of this recently.

2. The importance of being sure of your facts before naming names and possibly slandering another brother or sister wrongly. I didn't name the pastor here and I praise God I didn't.

Thank you, Tim and Todd! After today, I have plans (Lord willing) to lay everything aside to spend considerable time seeking the Lord and I'm really looking forward to it.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

Yes but I heard him say this so you know it was Wilkerson also. He was wrong.

A

AlmostHome May 4, 2016

by Rev__Enue

Keith

David Wilkerson was not infallible and on Israel he was mostly wrong.
(especially in his later days)

-----------------

Forgive my bluntness, but naming him was not necessary. What you posted should have been said directly to me in a PM. Your motive comes across as, "Ha! I figured out who it was and I disagree with this pastor so I'm going to name him." That's pride and ego. Otherwise, there was NO reason to name him when it was ME that was in the wrong.

As a mature Christian, you could have had the decency to respect that I didn't name this pastor and not have done so yourself. I don't want to be a stumbling block for others towards him because of MY error.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

"Keith"

I heard him in person many, many times and there was no one I respected more than David Wilkerson. He said this type of stuff on a number of occasions and thats what HE believed. He was entitled to his opinion as we all are, even when wrong.

D

dolfan May 4, 2016

Keith I applaud your dedication to seeking Him. Keep at it. Nothing else matters as much.

M

MrBillPro May 4, 2016

Wow! I just don't know who to listen to anymore today, in any modern day Pastors. Maybe someone should start a thread called "SI Members Approved Pastors", of course by the time we all got on the same page with this, Jesus would have probably already come back, so it wouldn't matter anymore. :-)

sermonindex May 4, 2016

Bill

At least you believe Jesus is coming back.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

Keith
the Bereans "searched Scripture daily ", it doesn't say they studied theology and put believers into categories.
To compare scripture with scripture is the way to go.

Then we also need to know why God gave us His word, to work out our salvation and then to build each other up so we can serve Him better.

Also remember "by their fruit we shall know them " By looking at their fruit will tell you a lot, and imo you can have full confidence in this brothers teaching as he is always pointing us to Christ.

Quote: "I have plans (Lord willing) to lay everything aside to spend considerable time seeking the Lord and I'm really looking forward to it." Great plan - may you be richly blessed !

Paul wrote:Though I am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to illuminate for everyone the stewardship of this mystery, which for ages past was hidden in God, who created all things.…Ephesians 3:8
May you start to discover those "unsearchable riches" which you will find only in Christ ! Blessings !

sermonindex May 4, 2016

I have listened to this message many times.

I just do not see ANY replacement theology in it at all and wonder why you do.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

Tuc, you mean David Wilkerson's message? I also have never heard him preach Replacement Theology. It makes you wonder how Rev_Enue defines "Replacement Theology".

I agree with dolfan and TMK, also. Keith, just from what you wrote, your pastor's words seem to be in line with The Word.

It was revealed unto the apostle Paul by the Holy Spirit that God's purpose from eternity was to have a chosen people upon this earth at all times until the Lord's return, and that this would be BOTH Jews and Gentiles brought into one body, the church, of which Christ is the Head: "Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself that in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together IN ONE all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in him" (Eph 1:9-10).

Paul shows us how the "middle wall of partition" has been broken down between Jew and Gentile, the enmity between them abolished and that they had, by the grace of God through the atoning work of Christ, been made one in Him, and thereby make up the true Israel of God (2:14-15). He adds that God's purpose "that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel" (3:5,6,10) the same as the Jews, thus making the true Israel of God those who have been made NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST JESUS BY THE NEW BIRTH and who are now spiritual Israel.

So, you see spiritual Israel cannot threaten or replace natural Israel and vice-versa. They are polar opposites and separate kingdoms. Although, the Kingdom of God does threaten the kingdom of darkness. Members of natural Israel can only become part of spiritual Israel by the new birth, receiving Jesus Christ by faith. One must be born into spiritual Israel by the Spirit of God. Jesus said you cannot see the kingdom unless you are born into it.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN, HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Some more scriptures for you to meditate on.

"As many as are led by the Spirit of God, THEY ARE THE SONS OF GOD" (Rom 8:14)

"the Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and JOINT-HEIRS with Christ" (Rom 8:16-17).

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, BUT A NEW CREATURE. As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL OF GOD" (Gal 6:15-16).

But more than this, may the Lord bless you in your study of His Word and "enlighten the eyes of your understanding". (Eph 1:8-23)

sermonindex May 4, 2016

Yes I do mean David Wilkerson's message and I have posted it here before.

There just isn't any Replacement Theology in this message.

sermonindex May 4, 2016

David Wilkerson was no "replacement theologian" - FYI

1.) David Wilkerson On Israel (48 seconds on YouTube video)

https://youtu.be/sb-9S8jkefs

2.) David Wilkerson, lover of Israel, dies in car accident
Thursday, April 28, 2011 | Ryan Jones

Israel lost a dear Christian friend and supporter on Wednesday when David Wilkerson, pastor of Times Square Church in New York City, was killed in a tragic car accident near Dallas, Texas.

Wilkerson is perhaps best known abroad for his 1963 book "The Cross and the Switchblade," which chronicled his earlier years ministering to drug addicts and gang members in New York.

The book was eventually made into a hit movie starring Pat Boone, another staunch Christian supporter of Israel.

In 2003, Israel Today editor Aviel Schneider had the privilege of interviewing Wilkerson during a visit to the UK. That interview is reproduced below.

israel today: As an American Christian, how did you feel about the war in Iraq?

Wilkerson: I preached about Saddam Hussein’s fall and warned our President that everything revolves around Israel. Oil is not the main concern. Saddam planned to destroy Israel, with the help of other Arab nations. Saddam Hussein is a stubborn person, and I’m thankful that God gave our President this strong conviction to save Israel from him.

israel today: Do you really believe that President Bush will choose to be biblically driven instead of politically correct concerning Israel?

Wilkerson: That’s why I call on American Christians to pray for our President daily and also to pray against the anti-Semitism that still exists in the Church. God warned me when I first established Times Square Church that we must always remain faithful to Israel. And I always have.

israel today: You are here in Europe, where many Christians have no understanding of the US-led war in Iraq.

Wilkerson: Many Christians in Europe simply don’t understand God’s Word. Saddam’s rockets were only aimed at Israel, not at neighboring Arab states. Beyond that, rising anti-Semitism in the churches can be felt here, particularly in Great Britain.

israel today: Would you describe Islam as a peaceful religion, as your President did?

Wilkerson: I read the Koran and I am sure that this book is false teaching. Islam is a religion of destruction. I find it so strange that Gospel preachers don’t understand that God didn’t break His covenant with Israel. God gave the Land to Israel, and every nation that wants to destroy Israel will be punished.

israel today: You have great courage to take such a strong pro-Israel stand.

Wilkerson: I’m often criticized in the Christian world for this. But I feel God’s rich blessing for it, which is much more valuable to me.

israel today: After the war in Iraq, Israel is once again at the top of the world’s agenda. Do you think the ‘roadmap’ has a chance to bring peace between Israelis and Palestinians?

Wilkerson: No! How can Bush, who knows the Bible, have no fear of God and pressure Israel into territorial compromise for the sake of the roadmap? God will punish him for it. The dollar will fall, Bush will sink into depression and he could very well lose the next election. I pray daily that the President’s believing advisors will influence him more than his political advisors.

israel today: In other words, you’re saying there’s no human solution to the conflict between Israel and the Arabs?

Wilkerson: God has promised to protect His people. He’s made a covenant and given them the Promised Land. He set the nation’s borders and He will safeguard them. I don’t see a realistic hope for peace because I can’t imagine that Israel will relinquish the Jewish settlements, as the Arabs are demanding. The Arabs also say there won’t be peace unless East Jerusalem becomes the capital of a Palestinian state. But that’s strictly against God’s will. My friend, if the world forces Jerusalem to be divided, it will come to chaos.

israel today: We in Israel can thank God that He is our secret weapon.

Wilkerson: Please publish my warning to the nations that take a stand against God’s people and His city Jerusalem. God said this and He will fulfill it. Shalom and God’s blessings.

A

AlmostHome May 5, 2016

This is my last post for the next four days and I wanted to have this matter settled and off my conscience before I take the next four days to shut out the world, turn my computer off, and just seek the Lord.

To Carmine: I love you. Nothing else matters and I don't want to be responsible for any strife or disunity with another brother. I accept full responsibility and ask you to forgive me. I've already asked God to forgive me for my anger and now I'm asking you. The situation itself only serves as a distraction for what the Lord has in store for us and I for one am not taking the bait. Our enemy is sly but he will not prevail. I look forward to fellowshipping with you when I return!

To Tim: In the mere days I've been here, the Holy Spirit has used you tremendously (bold, italicize and underline that) in my life. Thank you for your obedience to Him and for the love your posts exude. You have spoken exact words directly into my life and it's been answered prayer. He's been showing me how loved I am and your posts have expressed HIS love to me, too. Thank you and I love you.

To Markus: I think we've communicated twice and both times your posts have been very meaningful and godly. Both you and Tim have what I can only describe as "calm reason." Your wisdom is appreciated and heeded. I love you my Kiwi brother! (If you read my testimony, I said the first time I EVER got a hug was when I was 18. It was from a Kiwi! The friend that led me to the Lord introduced me to her boyfriend. Before he spoke a word to me, he hugged me for about a minute. Then he said, "You looked like you needed that." My friend said she told him nothing.)

To everyone else: My sincere apologies for even starting this thread, although I know the Holy Spirit intended it to help me grow. I've been an isolated, lone ranger Christian for so long that I had no clue how it affected my growth. I relied on my own understanding about Replacement Theology and haven't studied it yet to have a real grasp as to what it truly is. Believe me when I say that I'm THRILLED TO BITS that I was wrong on this!

You see, I'm DONE with being embarrassed about being wrong. I don't care about being perfect and proving myself anymore. I don't need to be well thought of in men's eyes anymore. For 50 years I lived in bondage to perfectionism and allowing the enemy to use others to make me feel unworthy and unloved. For the last 15 years, I've been an invisible, performance-based hermit. All I wanted for years was to not hurt and for SOMEONE to recognize that I EXIST! I'm HERE!

And I fell for it. All of these lies from the enemy, I fell for all of them!

Then the Holy Spirit showed such massive grace and mercy towards me that, by no strength or means of my own, He picked me up and opened my eyes.

Then I repented and grieved. I repented for wasting DECADES of my life! I mourned for those lost years! I repented because I saw the truth of it all and that it was rooted in SELF PITY! I had to go through this grieving process and period of repentance and weeping. But that season is over. I'm new again!

You all need to realize the importance of the SermonIndex forum and what God has accomplished through it. Lurkers are watching you! Non-members read this forum daily and are affected by YOUR WORDS! It's why the Holy Spirit impressed on me to finally join because you were ALL part of His plan to aid in MY healing.

Through YOU, He helped me see that I have NEVER been alone. I am NOT worthless. I am NOT forgotten. I do NOT have to prove myself. I AM loved. God is NOT mad at me. I have NOT used up His grace! And there IS time left for me to not only get right with Him but to affect His kingdom to the point that the enemy LOATHES the very mention of MY name!

The internal, personal battle I've been fighting has been intense. So much so that there are times I would insist that I could feel it going on in the spiritual realm around me.

For a very long time, as part of this battle, I have felt a sense of urgency that I couldn't shake or ignore. Even in my complacency, lukewarmness and in the midst of my sin, I KNEW it like I knew my own name. Time is SHORT and the Holy Spirit is looking for those who willing to surrender EVERYTHING to focus solely on Jesus. He is looking for people who will allow themselves to be rebuked, corrected, encouraged, built back up and prepared for what's imminently coming. I KNOW this! It's why I'm obsessed with only knowing Jesus intimately for who He is.

Look at what I'm coming out of! I'm LITERALLY NOBODY! If I died, it would take WEEKS before anyone realized it! I LITERALLY have NOTHING to lose! The enemy has already beaten me down and taken it all but I'm CONVINCED that God has allowed this for MY benefit! It's going to work out for His glory, which means EVERYTHING I've been through is worth it! HIS glory is EVERYTHING! When you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to fear! I'm after souls now. If I have to snatch them from the edge of hell itself by force, so be it. I've never been more serious in my life. And if making an ignorant fool of myself on SermonIndex is part of the process to make that happen, then I'll take it and praise Him for it! But whatever is left of my life WILL be spent for Jesus!

I don't know what's with me and long posts and I apologize. I'm not wallpaper anymore; at least not the devil's wallpaper! God is going to use my invisibility to cause Himself to be seen!

If the Holy Spirit puts me in your remembrance over the next four days, I would greatly appreciate your prayers! Lord willing, I will see you all in four days!