Has the American Church Met Its Burden?

I wanted to toss this out there for discussion, because of the talk of coming judgment, etc.

I think the general sentiment of certain Christians is that the Church has failed miserably in its mission, which is why morality, etc in the US is so pervasive.

So my question is, what would it take for the Church to meet its burden in God's eyes? If the Church could meet this burden, would we definitely see a change in society, or is this not guaranteed?

I guess my question boils down to what would it take for the Church to not be culpable in the eyes of God?

It would seem to me, although I'm hardly an expert and can only give my own personal thoughts, that for the church to not be culpable in the eyes of God, we would have had to have been an obedient, loving, abiding body of believers. The world would be looking at us in awe, recognizing that we're different from them by our love, and wanting what we have. Namely Jesus Himself.

We haven't been like that at all. We've gone off and done our own thing and created our own rules and programs and relied on our own ways, etc., So, we've failed to trust and rely on Jesus alone and that makes us culpable. I think it's that simple... and that shameful.

So, now the question becomes: What are we going to do about it? The chances of the entire church body on earth repenting and giving their all to Christ is infinitesimal. (Although, I'm an immovable believer that God can do A.N.Y.T.H.I.N.G. Even at this point in biblical history.)

But, I'm of the opinion (which means absolutely N.O.T.H.I.N.G.) that revival is now likely to come more in individuals than in the body as a whole. We're living in the time of testing where it's becoming more and more evident who has oil in their lamp and who is a noisy gong. False Christians are dropping like flies in today's political and social climate. The Lukewarm are being confronted and warned by True Believers and the Holy Spirit to repent. These things I DO know.

Has the church met her burden? No. If so, the world would be a very different place. But, God foresaw this, made provision, and His plan is coming to pass exactly as He wants it to. That's where I'm of the opinion that individuals are being dealt with right now... in preparation of what's around the corner.

Keith wrote: "Has the church met her burden? No. If so, the world would be a very different place. But, God foresaw this, made provision, and His plan is coming to pass exactly as He wants it to."

Hi Keith- is that another way of saying that the current state of the Church was in God's plan all along?

I don't want to put words in your mouth.

What an excellent question! Not exactly. What I'm saying is that God sees the end from the beginning and provided for it. Just as He foresaw sin coming into the world. It wasn't part of His plan, but He provided for it.

I believe we've all been given free will and the power of choice. If that weren't so, God wouldn't have put the tree in the garden that Adam and Eve weren't to eat from. God foresaw that they would and that sin would come into the world. So, even before the world was created, He provided the cure for sin and death, too - His Son's sacrifice on the cross.

Without choice, without free will, we're just robots or toys to be played with. And, as with all choices, come consequences and we're responsible for those, too. The church made wrong choices and we have been met with the consequences for those choices.

Even so, "but God!"

I don't see the church as totally responsible for society and its failures and inclination to wickedness. It's two different kingdoms - the kingdom of the world continues on and the kingdom of God continues to grow simultaneously alongside of the kingdoms of the world. They have always been tracking along side each other during history while not being part of the other. Now we know that no matter how many are saved and how much the church continues to grow that, "In the last days difficult times will come and evil men and impostors shall prceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." (II Tim 3:1,13) A end time revivial of salvation of souls is likely to take place in the midst of a great revival of wickedness among men and nations. One is the kingdoms of this world and the other will be the growth of the kingdom of God.

Where I'm at right now is thinking the church needs to begin again to emphasize that the new creation in Christ is created to love when all is said and done. That may be historically the church's greatest culpability and may continue to be. "By this all men will know you are My disciples if you have love for one another." (John 13:35) I wish I knew knew how to do it better.

I also think the concept and view Art Katz expressed in "The Theocratic Kingdom" needs to be revivied again and brought back to the church's consciousness. Not just the view that Christ will rule when He returns to the earth to the same nation He ascended from but how the mystery of Israel and the church are interrelated and how these two destinies are destined to merge again. This view, as Art said, may not just be lacking but sorely lacking in the contemporary church's consciousness making it culpable to a degree in many ways.

II Peter 1:19.

Let me ask this - is God more concerned with the wickedness of the ungodly or the lukewarmness of the Church?

I think back to when Abraham was dickering with God over Sodom. God was looking for at least 10 non-wicked people.

So I am wondering now if his focus is on a certain number of non-lukewarm Christians or a decrease in overall wickedness. Of course only He would be qualified to judge these things.

So looking at it another way, do any of you think that if there did happen to be true widespread revival in the Church that it would have a measurable effect on the amount of evil in society?

Or, has Anerica's fate been sealed, so to speak.

And very importantly- we have to remember that a true revival is for HIS sake and not for the benefit of saint or sinner.

I enjoy a good discussion. I'm utterly fascinated with learning and growing. There's nothing wrong with wondering these things and discussing them.

I say that to say it's good to remember what's most important though. What's done is done and cannot be undone. We can learn from the past but we shouldn't dwell there. We look to what can be done about it in the future by addressing it in the present. That starts with individuals addressing their own responsibility in the matter by examining themselves, repenting and moving forward.

I think that's the good of this conversation that Todd started. Is it causing us to examine our own culpability? Looking into the past to lay blame should only serve to remind us what not to do now.

Hey Julius-

In your view what would "coming out of Babylon" entail? What would it look like?

I sort of meant from the more corporate standpoint. What would the corporate church in America look like if it came out of Babylon?

The OP question remains open.

Would things differ materially here if the church revived? We cannot say. I would say that a revival of such scale needed to bring about that change is unprecedented. Revivals have been widespread but not thoroughly leavening society. There have been deep abiding local or regional revivals from God but He has not put on a sweeping and sudden societal changing movement, not in the sense of awakening and revival as we read of from the past.

Not even the Great Awakening(s) did that. Widespread pockets? Yes. Moral influence beyond conversions? Sure. But, the latter does not count and has no eternal value. In fact, in a real sense "moral social order" disguises lostness; there is an argument to be made that the enemy sows tares of moralism where revival occurs. Nothing says "OK boys, work's done here" like the sprouting of fruit that pleases the eye. And when society appears moral, we bite that fruit and spiritual revival turns to self reliance. Utah social order is an example of this sort of artifice.

It seems to me the best measure of revival is the life of the church and not the moral rectitude of society. Revival causes trouble. Revival is a subterfuge and sabotage of the social order. China knows what real revival is. Iran knows. I have a sense that N. Korea may already know. Those places are not more moral, not less deserving of judgment.

And let's also check whether our measurements are true. We do not know justice by our own goodness. We cannot vouch for ourselves. We cannot say to God, "We have mitigated Your cause against us."

J-

I agree that individuals need to be revived first. But I don't think a couple of revived individuals will do anything to change society or even the Church.

When I say corporate Church I mean the whole body of Christians. What would it look like if the Church came out of Babylon? If that is nothing but a pipe dream why do people keep talking about it and praying for it?

J wrote: "I can't answer that either, TMK. I have read the end of the Book and things get worse and worse for the world. The Scriptures also indicate that the Corporate Church (whole body of what we see with our eyes) is not going to come out of Babylon."

Then why does this site exist; why all the calls for a new great awakening that will never happen?

[these questions aren't directed just to you, and may be rhetorical. I'm not sure].