Rewind and Repeat

Keith thank you for that sermon, l was blessed by it and thought it powerful. It was good to hear holiness preached like that in our times.

I did disagree with him at end, in that he said that people could do their surrendering later. That is something where Satan will come and try to delay us by saying later later, but God's word says Today is the day of our salvation and whenever we feel God moving in us, we should react straight away.

That was a major point during the holiness movement but it was probably misused and too much pressure put on folks. But there should be a warning that any delay at all in our spirits is bad.

I find that present day or in the last 60 years or so, most preachers who are speaking with anointing like Mark, are still lacking in the discernment of previous speakers from true revival times and although their teaching is of benefit, like Poonan and Wilkinson, they are missing the mark on the finer points, and when one is in a place where God is moving powerfully in our lives, there us a great danger of us being misled so although the writings of previous saints is not so easy to read, the ones who taught holiness in revival times is more likely to help us navigate the waters more securely.

So for this reason, l have found much more help from writers such as the early Quakers, Finny some of Wesley, etc but a lot of error since 1950ish. So few since then witness to walking without sinning and it being confirmed by people who knew them.

So sad to hear that Mark's marriage failed though and how Satan got him.

To add.... I think that Mark was wrong when he cancelled appointments with his wife to have a night out, with one of them that he did not even phone her and left her waiting when all it would have taken was a two minute call. God bless her she was patient but who knows whether these things served to disrupt their relationship and over time give her the message that she was not important.

I believe that pride was at the basis of this, as surely he knew someone locally who could have met this person and given them the gospel until he was free to see them the next day. It is always Satan who makes us do things like this - making things seem like urgent and that no-one lese can do them.

"I think that Mark was wrong when he cancelled appointments with his wife to have a night out, with one of them that he did not even phone her and left her waiting when all it would have taken was a two minute call."

Sister how do you know these details of his private life...just curious?

I am assuming he mentions these things in his sermon? Even so I do not think it is healthy for us to be discussion the intricacies of another mans private life on a public forum. And it is especially wrong for us to assume anything about his failed marriage. We know none of the details and even if we did we should not discuss them publicly.

I hope I am not being too harsh...and for what it is worth, on a general note, it is true that satan will exploit any and all weaknesses in our lives, especially as it pertains to maintaining a balance between home life and ministry.

Mark he said these things and I believe that it is good for us to learn from the mistakes of others. I did say that we do not know the full facts.

Understood sister and I agree with you, we can and should learn from the mistakes of others.

On your general note about marriage. It is very easy for those in ministry or business or busy about many things to neglect their wife and children. This is a common thing today and leads to many divorces. I wish it were not so. I have always maintained that if a man is going to take a wife for himself then he must love and care for her as a true "husbandman" would do with the vine. Some wives will just never change because they refuse to come to the Lord and submit to Him in the first place. But a loving husband who is in tune with the Lord can by the grace of God help to turn around even a marriage that has been broken by infidelity. Love is the key, love is the answer...because love never fails.

Having said that I do understand that some people are just unable to continue in a marriage after infidelity. I do not know what I would do in such a case and I pray that I will never have to face such a horrible situation.

Not every situation about infidelity is cut and dried and the wronged spouse is never to blame for their partner cheating on them. But in some cases, taking better care of our spouse could perhaps have prevented tragedy. If a man neglects his wife...and I mean really neglects her until she is just the "help-meet"...little more than an unpaid servant at home and a baby factory...then it is little wonder that satan is able to mess with that woman's head.

On the other side of the coin, I have seen men who have been abused by an unsubmissive, unruly wife who hen-pecks their husband to death and never gives him a moments rest. He is never good enough and is never appreciated by his wife for providing for their family. Satan will take such a twisted marriage and bring enormous temptation before such a man.

Anyway not even sure why I am rambling, perhaps the Lord wanted me to write such things this morning for the benefit of someone going through a difficult marriage right now?

EDIT: I apologize for hi-jacking this thread. Keith, would you like me to delete this and start a new thread about marriage?

This is true brother and it has always been a common problem that preachers will neglect their families and even go on missions oversees when they have young children, even the most popular preachers, but they are displaying pride.

God can replace anyone who has heavy family commitments and send single people. If anyone chooses the married life and parenthood they must fulfill their responsibilities at home first.Their children will not need them forever and their wives will cope much more easily when they don't have children to attend to.

While I agree that family is a "first calling" to a husband & father, by these parameters you have set up, many of the greatest missionaries of all times were in the wrong (which I don't think is the case). Men like William Carey (India), Adonirum Judson (Myanmar), John Wesley, and on and on. While our responsibility to our family is great & of primary importance, the whole "he who loves his father, brother, mother, etc. more than me must hate his father, brother, sister, wife child (etc.) & take up his cross & follow me". And then there's the "let him who has a wife (& children) live as though he had none..." Etc. So it's a balance & God's calling in both areas (family & ministry) is key. Saying single people should go & married people stay is neither Biblical (-ly balanced) nor historical. The apostles were married with children too.
The question is of priority & not neglecting any of the Lord's callings for the man of God. Taken too far either way, it can just be human reasoning IMHO.
God Bless,
Jeff

And my statements were just in relation to the recent broad-brush statements in posts, not the OP - FYI

While there is much to learn from general principles and advice on how to balance life, there is little to be gained by examining the marriages of others unless they themselves open up and become brutally honest and transparent.

Along those lines I have never read anything from Tozer himself as to whether he would have liked to live differently with his wife, but I did read less than flattering comments from her about her late husband. Actually in a way they were a backhanded compliment. She said after she remarried that she was sure her new husband loved her but with regard to A.W. she was not so sure, but she knew beyond doubt that he did love the Lord. Not sure if that is an exact quote but something like that.

Have you ever read Adonirum Judson's letter he wrote to ask his future father in law for his wife's hand in marriage? It's pretty amazing (& foreign to our modern way of thinking). You can probably find it online, but it's in the book "To the Golden Shore" I know. And William Carey's wife certainly resented him for answering God's calling to India. She lost her mind, tried to stab him, & died in bitter resentment not long after. And God gave Carey a new wife who loved & supported him & was on board with sacrifice for the sake of Christ & the Gospel. You can read about it or watch the movie "Candle in the Dark." Or look at the heart and writings of both Jim Elliot & his wife, Elizaebeth Elliot. Amazing grace there. Or the ladies who lost their husbands to Islamic murderers a few years back in Turkey who forgave them on public TV & MANY Muslims cited that as an initial catalyst in coming to Christ afterwards. So there's two sides to this issue for sure. Both jobs/responsibilities should be tended to by a husband/father, but I reject the whole "singles should GO & married men stay". And so does scripture & church missionary history.

Of course if a wife opposes God's calling where she could accompany her husband, then she is in the wrong. It is more the father of young children that l have problems with.

Men are just instruments and it is not the person who is important. And just because God was able to use these men does not make it right

The less said about Wesley's marriage the better.

I know men like Adonirum Judson, William Carey, etc. had multiple small children. Some lost children (& wife's) on the field - FYI.

And it doesn't make it wrong either. That's why I posted the scriptures I did

But took them out of context.

Mark 10 (account is also in Luke & Matthew)
23And Jesus xlooked around and said to his disciples, x"How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter xthe kingdom of God!” 24And the disciples xwere amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, x"Children, xhow difficult it is to enter xthe kingdom of God!25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter xthe kingdom of God.” 26And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?” 27Jesus xlooked at them and said, x"With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” 28Peter began to say to him, "See, xwe have left everything and followed you.” 29Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, xthere is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and xfor the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold xnow in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, xwith persecutions, and in xthe age to come eternal life. 31 But xmany who are first will be last, and the last first.”

Luke 14
The Cost of Discipleship

25Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 x"If anyone comes to me and xdoes not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, xyes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 xWhoever does not xbear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not xfirst sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not xsit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 xSo therefore, any one of you who xdoes not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Salt Without Taste Is Worthless

34 x"Salt is good, xbut if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored?35 It is of no use either for the soil or for the manure pile. It is thrown away. xHe who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

1 Corinthians 7
29This is what I mean, brothers: xthe appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none,30and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy xas though they had no goods, 31and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For xthe present form of this world is passing away.

Now these (& other passages, as well as the very apostolic witness "martyrias" lives of the apostles themselves, the early church, many of the great missionaries of history, etc.) maybe don't mean as an excuse for ANYTHING & EVERYTHING or rejected the role of father/husband as unto the Lord as well, but they mean something at face value, so we have to reconcile Ephesians 5 which says for husbands to "love your wife & lay down your life for her as Christ did the church" & "if anyone comes after me and does not hate his wife, he cannot be my disciple." That means we should love our families ALOT & lead them as Christ would/did, but not at the priority over God's calling, Christ, & the Gospel too. Balance of truth found in scripture.

by jeffmar1130 on 2016/5/25 16:15:49

Mark 10 (account is also in Luke & Matthew)
23And Jesus xlooked around and said to his disciples, x"How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter xthe kingdom of God!” 24And the disciples xwere amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, x"Children, xhow difficult it is to enter xthe kingdom of God!25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter xthe kingdom of God.” 26And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, "Then who can be saved?” 27Jesus xlooked at them and said, x"With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.” 28Peter began to say to him, "See, xwe have left everything and followed you.” 29Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, xthere is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and xfor the gospel, 30 who will not receive a hundredfold xnow in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, xwith persecutions, and in xthe age to come eternal life. 31 But xmany who are first will be last, and the last first.”

Seems a verse was omitted.

Jesus clarified that it is not those who have riches but those who trust in them. I believe this scripture was excluded and it is the key.

Mar 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that TRUST IN RICHES to enter into the kingdom of God!

???

There no verses excluded/omitted. To keep it simple, maybe I should have just copied verses 29 onward. The point being what Jesus said about no one leaving children, houses, lands, family, etc. ...... And I posted other related scriptures as well afterwards. But I didn't omit/exclude any scriptures. I posted everything in order. I didn't post whole chapters or anything, but the totality of the passages I did quote explain my whole point. Jesus expected us not to not value or minister to our family, but that He & His Gospel were to be in an unhindered FIRST priority to EVERYTHING, yes, even mother, father, brother, sister, wife, children, etc. The great missionaries of old knew this (as did the apostles themselves), as does the whole sum counsel of God's Word bear this out.

I just cut and pasted from the ESV. Maybe you're looking at a KJV or NIV? I don't know. I do know ESV is an essentially literal translation, being a "Word for Word" translation, not a "thought for thought" translation, which is my personal preference. Either way, verse 29 onward is "related" to the previous verses, but also in there does Jesus expand what He is discussing beyond riches alone.

Yes, I now see where the ESV actually omitted the verse.