2 Thessalonians 2
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_thessalonians/2.htm
I have been struggling with the doctrine of the Apostasy versus the doctrine of once saved always saved. If as christians, the anti christ talks about a great falling away before the time of the antichrist. The word is apostasia in the greek and it is used in acts 2:2 as rebellion. I do not hold to the pre tribulation view that this passage according to Dr Thomas Ice that this is the rapture it is not and it does not fit with the context of the passage.
One thing that I can determine is the church in the west is not going through a revival at the moment. We look at denominations like the methodists in which John Wesley started it supports Gay Marriage & so many heretical doctrines and the Interfaith Movement http://www.methodist.org.uk/
Baptist Union it is heavily into the Interfaith movement this does not mean that all baptists support this
http://www.baptist.org.uk/Groups/220648/Inter_Faith_Engagement.aspx
Anglican Interfaith document
http://nifcon.anglicancommunion.org/
URC Church Interfaith document
http://www.urc.org.uk/mission/interfaith-relations
http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk
These guys are part of the World Council of Churches
http://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches
The reason is that you have scriptures such as Corinthians
1 Corinthians 6:9
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Doctrinally you cannot askew what is the church? As most of these groups or people in these denominations do not believe say these positions.
I do not believe in works salvation as it states in scripture
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
http://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/ephesians/2-8.html
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11
1 I say then*, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid*. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew*. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more* of works: otherwise grace is no more* grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more* grace: otherwise work is no more* work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare*, and a trap*, and a stumblingblock*, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then*, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid*: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as** I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches*, take heed lest* he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell*, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my* covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes*: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as* ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
I believe that all Israel will be saved, This scripture denotes if the Israelites fell of because of unbelief how about the church.
My problem is when you look at say the 2 Thes passage do you denote that the people who are in apostasy were never saved or do you say they were never christian, this is also linked with the antichrist coming out of the apostasy. In Daniel the antichrist comes out from the Roman Empire
Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
It is interesting how most of the churches are support the EU as a christian it come from an AntiChristian heritage
http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/issues/eu-referendum/
This is a publication from the Baptist Union, URC and other denomations stating why Europe is fine. Which is anti Bibilcal.
If we state say we believe in say once saved always saved then what would we say the apostasy is.
John 10:27
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Philippians 1:6 [Full Chapter]
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
1 John 2:19, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
Hebrews 13:5, "Let your character be free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, 'I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you.'”
You have verses that go against this position
2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia.
1 Tim 1:19
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
James 5:19-20 ESV / 138 helpful votes
My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
I am just wrestling with these two doctrines as how can you have an apostasy yet believe in once saved always saved and do not believe in works salvation
