Saving Christianity from Empire

I think you must have missed the point for war. We should always/only go to war to protect our nation. It is true that we as Christians are to turn the other cheek and to love our neighbors but our government has the Biblical responsibility to protect those who are under its laws. We are to forgive as individuals those who attack us, but our judical government has the authority from God the Father to see that justice is done. That's why we have a government. If our government wasn't obligated to protect the weak and ensure justice for all under its authority great and small then tell me, what is it for? Without a government there to enforce the certain inalienable rights that we as humans have from God then we would be at the mercy of many wicked people like Stalin, Hitler, Bin Laden and Hussien.

This is our legacy and if others follow after it we have only ourselves to blame. We've made the bed, stolen vast sums from the third world poor and now blame outsiders for our hated place in the world. I am not going to comment on how this addresses the US but you remember us? we were the big kids on the block before you got here. We have pubs older than your country. ;-) This seems to be the pattern for any ultimate super power. Charlemagne, the Brits and now the US. There is a pattern which associates 'success' with God's approval. With 'success' come many benefits in life and culture and as thinking Christians wonder at their material 'blessing' in comparison with so many their personal gratitude turns to the hunt for a theology to support it. In the Victorian era we produced a theological oddity called British Israelism; apparently Queen Victoria was taken with it. It was based on the monstrous assumption that the British (Berith-Eth) the people of the Covenant were the lost tribes of Israel or Ephraim at the least.The Queen, her government and the Christians began to think in terms of 'national destiny'. A British Prime Minister, Disraeli, who was a baptised Jew, wrote a novel in which the land of Israel was restored to a nation of Israel. It became a script for British policy in the Victorian period. The terrible pogroms of the 19 and early 20th Century kick started Theodore Herzl (provoked by the Dreyfus Affair) and the political Zionists; all of whom were atheists. Herzl's phrase 'if you believe it need not be a dream' became the slogon. Britain began to see itself as part of a divine destiny. I don't know how well you folks over there know the words of the British national anthem?God save our gracious Queen,long live our noble Queen,God save the Queen!Send her victorious,happy and glorious,long to reign over us,God save the Queen!Thy choicest gifts in storeon her be pleased to pour,long may she reign:may she defend our laws,and ever give us causeto sing with heart and voiceGod save the Queen!Nor on this land alone,but be God's mercies knownfrom shore to shore:Lord, make the nations seethat men should brothers be,and form one familythe wide world o'er.Not one Brit in 10,000 has ever heard the last two verses, but the militant imperialism of the first verse finds part justification in the 'kingdom of heaven' of the last verse. There was an ancient pattern for this; Oliver Cromwell was also intent on building the 'kingdom of heaven' worldwide through the agency of England's colonies.I once insulted an American friend quite unknowingly. I won't tell you the joke, but I discovered he was offended because my 'joke' questioned the 'God's destiny for America' theology to which he held; it was tantamount to blasphemy.So what can a European, grateful for USA intervention in the 20th Century, say to American Christian in the 21st Century? It would be presumption to attempt the exercise but would be along the lines of encouraging them to think more in terms of American Christians than Christian Americans. The final noun in each of these patterns will determine your theology; be watchful.

Amen Philologos! I agree exaclty with what you have said. There are many American Christians where I live and I sometimes find myself reminding them that this is not our home...Bubbaguy- What are you talking about? I said nothing in the support of the American Government or in some of the descicions that have been made past or present. The trail of tears was a horrible tradgedy that should be spoken of more today. I responed to your post to point out the fallacy of the beliefs found simply in the little introduction of the book in question. Once again you skim read what I have written and go off on your next post ranting and raving about things that have really nothing to do with what I said.

As a Candadian, I find it very refreshing to read your humble acknowledgements. Often I hear comments about Americans worshipping their nation and its leaders, trusting their nation to protect them. I can honestly say that not everyone is that way. I don't really have a right to say much, because I did not read the book that Bubbaguy has recommended, (It sounds very good) but he got me thinking. Thankfully there are people around who walk with their eyes open, and who are not afraid to publish their observations. It may "burst the bubble" for many, but that must happen in order to bring the people of a strong, proud nation to humble repentance. I think of the ancient Israelites, and later the Jews in Jesus day, who assumed that because they were God's chosen people, he would protect them always and give them a nation. But he never promised that. Instead, he promised an eternal Kingdom of true believers. He also promised judgment if they strayed from him. (So much for the lovely little Sunday School song: "Every promise in the Book is mine.") Every great nation that has ever existed came to an end at some point - because of sin - God's judgment. I don't think God has changed. God has never been at the mercy of ruthless dictators and threatening nations, and neither are we - unless we do not trust in God. Then we are left to rely on our own strength. It seems to us that many think that God is for them, even though they may not be living under his authority. "If God be for us, who can be against us." That makes me wonder, if this is so, wouldn't there be modern day counterparts of such miraculous deliverances as Gideon and his 300, or Jehosephat and his singers, the three men in the fiery furnace, Peter and the opened prison gates... etc etc. If God is against us because of his wrath and judgment (whether Americans or Canadians or otherwise) then no amount of armament will protect us. The only place of deliverance from enemies is at the foot of the cross - humbly admitting sins, and surrending all idols. Here is some more enlightening reading: Letters to Jessica Diane

I am not going to comment on how this addresses the US but you remember us? Almost hate to cut it short at that point as the rest of this is very well said. But it is good in that we keep seeing these things coming up here.It's redundant to some but to others that are newer around here, this needs to be said.This site is not geared towards politically wrangling for one. Nor is it welcoming to be bringing in conspiracy theories, badgering endless debates of a political nature and especially the forgotten fact that America is not the only country on the face of the earth, nor is it alone represented here. Furthermore as to Christianity this is also well stated: but would be along the lines of encouraging them to think more in terms of American Christians than Christian Americans. The final noun in each of these patterns will determine your theology; be watchful.To use an analogy. A bit tongue in cheek but not without a lot of truth to it, a nudging about "California drivers" is often heard. Being one doesn't necessitate that I drive like one in the sense of the stereotype being poked fun at. (If you were not to believe the truth of this, just come on out here when it's raining, it's either Mario Andretti where it's possible or it's 15 mph on the freeway, everybody panics) I am exaggerating the point, but this site is comprised of many believers from all over the world. Many denominational constructs and upbringings (and hopefully out-bringings from some of it).To be bringing these things up without consideration for the whole is to lose perspective in many forms. Why does it not seem odd that we don't hear more about the politics of Africa or the UK or Canada or China? Frankly am glad because this is far removed from the thrust of this site and Christianity as many of us would believe it to be understood. Of course there is room for things to be discussed, but am weary of seeing these things especially always coming from an American perspective. It is more reaching than that in this penchant toward a American Christianity as if it was some version different than the rest of the world.Personally and hesitated to even bring it up, what difference does it make to be caught up in so much that we have not all the facts on, is constantly being projected and opinionated andalways ends up in futile speculations and bellyaching with no results?What pray tell does this have to do with Jesus? With revival, with the deep heart cuttings of who we are at the core of our beings? Where do we find any of this type of thing in scripture, this side of the cross? Surely we can draw inference from many things out of the scriptures but am reminded of a message from Jim Cymbala and I searched earlier for it, but his thoughts stuck, it was something on the order of just this, all this political and governmental wrangling:Am paraphrasing here, but he was saying "Where do we find Paul crying out 'Oh Cesar's a homosexual, what will we do?' The Romans are terrible barbarians, we must do something'... Leave them alone, who cares what they do, we have enough of our own problems."And I would agree. Don't we have a hard enough time as it is with ourselves? With what the Lord requires of us? With just getting down to the basics of scripture and the irony that all these things can bring up out of ourselves with all the divisiveness and hatred and pitting one against the other? Isn't that telling enough? Isn't it just as telling that a matter of prayer is harder to come to terms with and discuss than to launch off into the political arena with a bazillion opinions?What about the persecuted church, that which we know nothing of, us poor Americans. Why doesn't this issue get more ink? I think it is in part because there is a large segment that just doesn't want to look at it, so much easier to go off on endless tangents of speculation that gets the dander up and grieves a lot of people that come through here. And again what of them? Does all this not matter to the those that want to keep bringing this up? Does it not ever occur to you that not only are there those represented from other countries here, but what of those who peer in on these things? Is this what the Lord died for?And what of history? As Ron alluded to, what of the history of the church and that in other countries? Don't think it needs to be broad brushed in any manner but the world is much bigger than America and so is the reach of this site. Some perspective is needed.

In all honesty, I have only read part of the posts, and skimmed through the long ones. I have been in the Marine Corps Reserve for a while, deployed to Middle East, etc. I don't worship this country, I worship my God. Remember that we have access to these computers, internet lines, homes, etc, because many unsaved (and some Christian) men and women paid for your freedom with their blood."Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."Notice that the most often mentioned job in the New Testament is the soldier. Jesus said of the centurion of Matt 8:10, "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel."America is not perfect, that's why Jesus is coming to set up his kingdom. I do love my country, yet I fear my government. We must remember that America is not the government that rules it, but the citizens that live in it. God told the Jews that he spared them not because they were good, but because the neighboring peoples were exceedingly wicked.Romans 13 shows how the military is ordained just as the church and the family are in Scripture. The judge of all the earth will bring all to justice in the end. Please read the following from 1 Peter 2:[13] Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;[14] Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.[15] For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:[16] As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.[17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.