Questions About the Doctrine Called "Soul Sleep"

sermonindex Jun 22, 2016

I know that when Christians support their belief that the dead are currently conscious, they find it easy to do so with the help of some New Testament passages (Luke 16:19-31, Luke 23:43, Philippians 1:20-23 and 2nd Corinthians 5:6-8). However, I am trying to figure out if there are Old Testament verses that clearly support the idea. As I make an unbiased search of the Old Testament, I can’t seem to find anything that clearly supports the idea, but instead I see the contrary.

Instead of verses that imply the dead are currently conscious, I find verses that blatantly state the opposite. For example Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

I am not opposed to traditional teaching if it is correct. However, if traditional teaching seems to go against truth, then I am willing to abandon tradition for the truth that the word of God states. So based upon what the Old Testament seems to clearly endorse, I am prepared to abandon the idea that the dead are currently conscious. However, before doing so, I was just wondering if maybe I am overlooking something. Is there anything in the Old Testament to clearly supports the idea that the dead are currently conscious.

Please note, I am not ignoring the New Testament verses I posted at the top, however, I don’t feel that on their own they are a strong enough reason to reject what the remainder of scripture seems to blatantly teach.

Also, I am curious as to why this doctrine seems to generate so much passion. I don’t really understand why people are opposed to the idea that the soul sleeps until the resurrection. After all, it is not like one notices the time pass. So this has me puzzled. As I research this subject online, I find that those who fully support the idea that the dead are immediately in heaven or hell leave no room for argument. Then tend to insist that it is only cults who teach the idea of "soul sleep.” But I find this really puzzling. For one thing, I can’t really see why it is offensive to believe that after death a person is asleep until the resurrection. And secondly, as I try to look at the scripture through unbiased eyes, I can’t help but notice that the scripture seems to highly favor the idea of soul sleep. So for those two reasons, I cannot understand the strong opposition to the doctrine.

Can anyone shed some light on this subject and point out something that maybe I am missing? Thank You!

sermonindex Jun 22, 2016

Dear Q,

Enoch and Elijah went straight to God :-)

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it"

L

sermonindex Jun 22, 2016

Thank religion that there is no agenda with this "honest" enquiry.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2016

Carmine,

Is my question honest? Yes and No. While my mind is pretty much now made up on this issue, it wasn't always so. It is only recently that I have pretty much abandoned the notion that the dead are currently conscious. However, I didn't come to this conclusion because of any influence of the SDA or Jehova's witness (nor am I associated with them in any way, shape or form). Instead, I came to it by making a choice to search scripture without any preconceived ideas. It is my own search of scripture that has led me to my conclusion. So yes, for the most part, my mind in made up and at this point it is unlikely to change unless I found clear scriptural reason to do so. So, that is why I ask the question, I am honestly interested to see if I have by chance overlooked something that should cause me to reconsider.

As far as having an agenda, my only agenda is stated above. I have no desire to promote my conclusion or persuade anyone at Sermonindex to embrace it. It is the conclusion I have reached, I am confident that that is what the scripture teaches and that is good enough for me. However, I do want to make sure that I am not missing something that the scripture clearly teaches. For that reason I have ask you for your take on the issue. Since it is not my intention to persuade others, I give you my word that I will not post any kind of reply for the purpose of establishing the conclusion I have reached. I will simply read the replies from others and make no comment.

However,with that all said, I am still interested as to why people are so opposed to the idea of soul sleep. I am not asking why thy aren't willing to embrace it, instead I am only asking why they find it so offensive. To me it seems like a harmless doctrine that has a whole lot of scriptural support, however, those who embrace it seem to immediately be thought of as a heretic. Why such passion for a doctrine that is unclear and unoffensive?

Seeking honest answers to the questions above is the only "agenda" I have.

T

TMK Jun 22, 2016

From a purely practical standpoint, there would be no experiential difference between "sleeping" from the point of death to the resurrection, or immediately being in heaven. This is because after death, the next conscious experience will be heaven, whether the soul has been "sleeping" or not. A dead person is not literally sleeping, or dreaming or experiencing any passage of time. So from the believer's standpoint, his next conscious experience after death would be heaven, whether he literally goes at the point of death, or if he is "sleeping" for years.

But people do get passionate about it, no doubt. I agree that the weight of the OT seems to suggest the grave is the end game at least until the resurrection. There is not total consistency on this in the OT however.

I think that Jesus's words in Mark 12:26-27 strongly suggest that souls are not sleeping: "But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”

Jesus seems to be saying that at the time God spoke with Moses at the burning bush, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were alive, at that time, or at least their "spirits" were.

But even so this is not an issue I would go to battle over because again I don't think it makes an experiential difference.

sermonindex Jun 22, 2016

Hey Todd, can I ask you this? (And once again this is an honest question I am asking looking for your answer. I am not asking this question in hopes of pushing my position).

If you were to pick up and read the Old Testament without any prior religious knowledge or influence, do you think you would be confused about the issue of what happens at death or do you think it would be clear?

T

twayneb Jun 22, 2016

questionmark: I do not think there is an agenda at all in the question itself. I am from a VERY traditional pentecostal background, and was taught the doctrine of soul sleep all my life. So actually, I called that doctrine into question rather than the other way around. I do have a couple observations and questions that might be worth chasing down.

1. Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place for us, and that if He did this, He would come again and receive us unto Himself that where He is we may be also. Since He has not come again yet, can we yet go to where He is? In other words, does this statement of Jesus imply that we do not go directly to heaven?

2. When Christ returns, the souls of the dead return with Him and their bodies are raised again. Scripture does tell us that the spirit returns to the father. But does this say anything about the consciousness of the spirit during that time?

3. If we do go directly to heaven, or directly to hell when we die, then what purpose could there be in the great white throne judgment? Do I remove you for a moment from torment or from bliss simply to tell you that you have to go to torment or bliss?

I like TMK's point. When we die, our next conscious moment will be the same whether it is the next instant or whether our soul's sleep until that day. So then the question must be asked, at least I think, whether there is a compelling reason why it must be one way or the other? And, is scripture clear enough to teach without doubt one way or the other?

Just a few questions thrown out to consider.

T

TMK Jun 23, 2016

QM-

I would agree that the great weight of OT evidence is that the dead go to Sheol which is simply the grave. David talks about it repeatedly in the psalms.

There are just some passages that might indicate otherwise but are not rock solid. I think the general belief of OT writers was that when they died they would be dead. What their hope was beyond that is not clear. Job seemed to believe in a resurrection. It is not clear how widespread that belief was.

S

Scholar8200 Jun 23, 2016

Greetings! On this subject, I believe the story of Lazarus and the Rich man lays everything to rest. Jesus(Truth Personified) would not have described the immediate afterlife in untrue terms. Himself told the thief,''this day, thou shalt be with me in paradise. Bible tells us Jesus descended to the lower parts of the earth(just like He said it happened to the rich man ).
Furthermore, if you consider the OT e.g. Genesis 49:33, Jacob was said to have been ''gathered unto his people'' after yielding up the ghost just like it happened to Lazarus.

Meaning there continues a consciousness after death.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

What is your view regarding these verses?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

The OT is not the place to establish what happens after death. It has very little to say about the subject. Remember, the Sadducees and the Pharisees violently disagreed as to whether there was even life after death and Paul used that to his advantage. Another thing to remember, the Pharisees, the ones who did believe there was life after death had only been around at the time of Jesus for about 500 years. So, their views on the afterlife was relatively new. It is to Jesus and the NT we must go to give us the clarity of teaching........bro Frank

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

Frank

Please do not go to Jesus for enlightenment. How then can the endless speculation of trying to endlessly misinterpret what has already been clearly disclosed by him concerning the state of the dead in Christ. (and otherwise). This need to be debated as though he did do say what he already stated so as to create uncertainty and thus formulate new and novel doctrines to fit ones mind.
So please Frank, can you please leave Jesus out of this.

T

TMK Jun 23, 2016

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God. *******First, the believers who have died will rise from their graves. ******Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever. So encourage each other with these words.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

Exactly, Frank. Jesus and the Holy Spirit (through the Apostles) gave more revelation about this that one cannot find in the OT.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

Hey Carmine,

I have a pretty good sense of humor and I am pretty sure your are being funny? Please tell me you are being funny? :) ............Bro Frank

T

TMK Jun 23, 2016

Sarcasm at its finest.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

Frank

You made a good point and it is evident that opinions matter more that what Jesus says/said to some. Even though he repeatedly said that the state of the dead are in a conscious state immediately after death it does not matter to some.

Is it not obvious that the body, flesh and bone or whatever material matter a person leaves behind is the only thing that sleeps and is dead .
Jesus Christ said this and yet here we are debating the most elemental matter
that any genuine. Spirit filled Bible believing person KNOWS to be true.
I do not get why so many clear truths are debated when the scriptures
and Spirit of the Lord clearly set out what is true and what is not.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

Carmine said

"Frank

You made a good point and it is evident that opinions matter more that what Jesus says/said to some. Even though he repeatedly said that the state of the dead are in a conscious state immediately after death it does not matter to some."

End Quote

That is quite a bold statement you just made there and one that I think needs a little bit of support.

It's a funny thing - if you ask me for clear and blatant scriptures that say the dead are currently unconscious, I can quickly produce 10-15 (and that is being conservative). However, no matter how hard I try, I can't find one verse that clearly states this idea that you insist to be so obvious. Sure, I can find verses that could seem to imply that doctrine, but as far as verses that blatantly establish that doctrine, I am afraid that you will find a grand total of zero. Please enlighten me as to where Jesus clearly and blatantly stated that the dead are immediately conscious. Let me guess, you are going to recite from a parable or you are going to quote what Jesus said to the thief on the cross.

Sure, I admit, if I read those passages with the preconceived idea that the dead are currently conscious, the I guess they would seem to support my preconceived idea. However, if you accept the foundation of truth that is laid out in the Old Testament (and is also heavily supported in the New), then those two passages are hardly reason to abandon ones confidence in the truth the the Old Testament lays out. The story of Lazarus and the Rich man is simply a parable that was told to make the point that those who don't repent because of the law and the prophets will not repent even if they saw a great miracle. And in regards to what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, if you simply change the place of a comma (note that the punctuation is not inspired)that verse can take on a whole different meaning.

I am pretty certain that if Jesus really wanted to overturn the teaching that is clearly laid out in the Old Testament, he would have chose to do so in a way that couldn't easily be disputed. I am pretty sure that Jesus would have clearly said, "I want everyone to know that even though the scripture seems to imply that the dead are unconscious until the resurrection, your understanding is wrong. You need to know that the dead are conscious even as they are dead." Now, that would be a pretty indisputable statement. However, I am pretty certain that you will not find such a blatant statement in the entire scripture, and certainly not from the mouth of Jesus.

So, I am sorry to inform you Carmine, those repeated statements you seem to be convinced Jesus said, really don't exist. You only think they do because you read the Bible though the eyes of your own preconceived idea.

Now that I have come to accept the idea that the dead are not currently conscious, I find that it is very easy to explain why certain verses seem to imply the contrary. However, when I believed that the dead were currently conscious, it was nearly impossible to explain why the rest of scripture seems to clearly refer to those who are dead as sleeping.

Now, I should note, I am not saying any of this in order to promote what I believe. I honestly have no desire to persuade you or anyone else to embrace what I believe. However, I did feel it necessary to respond to the statement you made that Jesus repeatedly said that the dead are conscious. You stated that with such authority that it would seem that it must be true. However, saying something with authority doesn't make a statement true. You need some facts to give your statement authority, however, I am afraid you will find that you don't have those fact.

You can say with authority that Jesus made several statement that can support the preconceived idea that the dead are currently conscious. That statement would be true. But you cannot say that Jesus repeatedly said that the dead are currently conscious. That statement is false.

With that said I would like to ask once again. Why the hostility and dogmatism in regard to this particular doctrine. As TMK pointed out, it really makes no difference in regards to ones experience. If you are truly asleep, then the passage of time is unnoticed. So please explain to me (Carmine specifically) why you seemed to immediately put up a strong defense to this particular post. What is it that bothers you about this particular doctrine? This is a very sincere and honest question, because I just do not understand the strong opposition to it.

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

I will agree with Jesus instead of you

sermonindex Jun 23, 2016

I will let your comment speak for itself.