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You may have all of this theology but give me Jesus.
You may have all of this theology but give me Jesus.
You may have all of this theology but give me Jesus.
From the shadow of His cross.
Amen brother Blaine,
There is really a major difference between knowing all the doctrines of God and Jesus Christ and knowing Him and pursuing a personal relationship with Him!
"This IS Eternal Life...that the may know Him the true God and Jesus Christ Whom He has sent"
Thank you for the timely reminder that we need to constantly check whether we are still pursuing our first love!
But does having proper and sound theology automatically mean one doesn't have Jesus?
How can pursuing God more closely and running hard after Him be done without a growing and maturing knowledge of how He has revealed Himself in the Word?
Why either/or meaning one must make a choice between Jesus or theology? Why can it be both/and? Can't one have Jesus and both sound theology?
Hi brother David,
Of course both are important, but all I am saying is theology as learning and knowing facts about God are not sufficient. An experiential heart to heart relationship is comparatively more important. Did not Jesus say to the Pharisees(paraphrase) You search Moses diligently but it is Moses who speaks of Me?
You can know all the facts about a chair and even the one who made the chair but until you actually sit on the chair your knowledge means little :)
If we see "theology" as the study of knowing God Himself, it is a wonderful thing, but if it is only to accumulate facts and knowledge maybe not so good.
"Knowledge puffs up but LOVE builds up"
In His Love,
Yeah was kinda thinkin the same thing but perhaps I wasn't understanding how brother Blaine was using the term theology and my mind just read it as doctrine instead...
Having said this I do know people who (unfortunately) know about Jesus but have never met Him or even seen Him tho they are fluent in christianese...
Ironically these have the strongest opinions of those I know personally and aren't very open to learning save a personal crisis when their idea of Jesus turns out to be a 2 dimensional cardboard cut out with a gentle/gentile Jesus sticker on it,...then some open their hearts to to receive the truth of His spirit as revealed in scripture. But generally, at least here in the Bible Belt, most people think they already "have it" and it's def hard to minister to someone who is gospel hardened so to speak-
Excerpt from a statement of faith:
"We believe the Bible to be the inspired, the only infallible, authoritative Word of God. .... We believe that the work of the Holy Spirit glorifies the Lord Jesus Christ, convicts the world of its guilt, regenerates sinners, ...
He also indwells, illuminates, guides, equips and empowers believers for Christ-like living and service"
Doctrines rooted in man-made terms, ideas and explanations can even lead a believer away from the Lord Himself. Good doctrines are helpful, but growing in discipleship with the Lord Jesus Christ is more important. 632 Though there is Scriptural warrant and benefit to study the character of God and His ways. God does not call us to be theologians merely but disciples who practice what Jesus taught. "Christians now choose churches based upon particular doctrines, and having the right theology has become the most important thing rather than having the right lifestyle, all because a Biblical model has been abandoned.”633
from: Principle 26 ”“ Having a Right Doctrine but Wrong Spirit.pdf
https://gfel.org/principlesbook-3/
Amen!!!!!
It seems you have touched on the "lost art" of our faith.... Discipleship 101
The Necessity of Theology
"Therefore, knowing biblical doctrine is required for maturing in the faith ”” it is necessary for true spiritual adulthood. At the same time, we must always remember that mere knowledge is insufficient for spiritual maturity. Satan, after all, has an intellectual knowledge of God and His Word (Matt. 4:1”“11; James 2:19), but he is anything but spiritually mature. More than just a mental grasp of the content of biblical theology is needed, for spiritual maturity only comes as we receive the Word in our hearts and allow it to transform us through the power of the Holy Spirit."
http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/why-theology-necessary/
Brethren it is not relationship to a theology textbook we need. But it is relationship to a Living Savior. Theology will not sustain us in a prison cell or at the guillotine. But it will be the relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit.
This is what our brothers and sisters have learned in the persecuted church.
....... Brother Blaine
Is a person's relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit separate and distinct from what is written in the Word?
Blaine,
I think I understand what you're trying to get across, But it's not an "either/or" thing, but both. The whole of scripture is crystal clear about this. And truly knowing Jesus & walking with Him is foundational, bud bad doctrine/theology can leave you hung up or struggling unnecessarily in error for longer than need be. We must never drift from the living Christ, but we need not leave right doctrine/theology behind to do so. The Lord doesn't require or ask that of us. Quite the opposite. Even though there are the churches in Revelation Christ rebukes for leaving their first love, he also commends some for holding sound doctrine & rebukes one for tolerating that wicked woman Jezebel, which solid immovable doctrine would be the start of preventing/stopping (followed by spiritual backbone & obedience in coming against "her").
God Bless,
Jeff
A thousand scriptures could be quoted to support what I'm saying: "make sure your doctrine", "Study to show thyself approved, a workman who needeth not be ashamed, but rightly dividing the Word of truth", etc., etc. And even the persecuted church under pressure faces the pressure of false doctrine, false teaching, bad theology, etc. I know this for a fact. So a living relationship with Jesus is first and foremost, but should be followed by a love for truth & a discernment shaped and exercised to discern true from false, good from bad doctrine/theology/etc. The two are not mutually exclusive polarity points, but a concert of two supporting themes in the life of a believer and the ministry of the church. Teachers & shepherds are actually in the 5-fold ministry gifts and callings (offices) God ordained. If we are not to despise prophecies, how much more are we not to despise sound doctrine? I think I know what you're getting at, but your statements are coming across as absolute and need further clarity from the scriptures brother.
God Bless,
Jeff
I think I understand what you're trying to get across, But it's not an "either/or" thing, but both
Jesus Himself is truth and the Holy Spirit leads into all truth. But I think man-made theology and theology terms is what Blaine is maybe suggesting. Such things can become idols in our hearts that we even start to love or seek more after then God Himself and the life of God.
John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
John 16:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
In spite of the untold millions of souls saved and many believers being re-energized and renewed through the biblical infilling of the Spirit what started out as a God sent fresh wave and renewal many times this eventually ended up being a embarassmnet as believers and churches began to rise up to play and about anything that came down the line in meetings was accepted. No wonder mainline denominations ended up shying away fropm the "Spirit-filled" emphasis. They should have. The increasingly questionable manifestations in many charismatic settings combined with many questionable teachings that emerged likely can be traced to a experiential emphasis replacing sound doctrine. Both can be had and the better off we are if both are present in the contemporary church. Experiencing Jesus in a personal encounter does not mean doctrine will somehow curtail this. Nor does embracing sound doctrine and pursuing the study of it have to mean we are to become suspect of all personal encounters and experiences one has with Jesus along the way.
Good post David. Amen.
Theology = study of God from his revealed word about who he is.
Jesus = word that became flesh
relationship with Jesus Christ = getting to know him
Therefore:
theology = relationship with Jesus Christ
Condition: theology has to be done in the light of the Holy Spirit, and with the intention to obey God.
.
... Now as they observe the confidence of Peter and John and understood they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and begin to recognize them as having been with Jesus...Acts 4:13
Brothers and sisters it is those who are in relationship to Jesus who will advance His kingdom purposes. It is those who are in relationship to Jesus who will do the signs and wonders.
The kingdom of Christ will not advance through the hands of the professional theologian. Indeed it is a professional theologians who despises those who walk in the simplicity and purity of devotion to Jesus.
Those who risk their lives to minister in what we call the persecuted vhurch are not the hotshot theologians coming out of seminary environments. But it is the simple saint of God who is crucified with the Lord Jesus Christ and walks in power in the Holy Spirit who is doing the work of Christ.
My prayer would be that we would be uneducated, untrained men and Women of God who are in relationship to Jesus. Fortunately these will be the ones who will advance the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Brothers and sisters,
From the start let me assure you how much I appreciate all your posts and input on this thread. I agree that sound doctrine is imperative,and let us remember that sound doctrine is that which is centered in our Lord Jesus.
To quote brother Greg: "God does not call us to be theologians merely but disciples who practice what Jesus taught"
Remember that Jesus was manifest in the most "theological" society in the world. They had Moses and the prophets, yet did not recognize Jesus. Instead, they had burdened the people of God with additional laws and regulations.
In the midst appeared Jesus Christ, saying:" Come unto Me, all who are weary and heavy laden ( with so called theology?) and I will give you rest!
Hallelujah! Thank You Jesus! You are our burden bearer!
God bless you, my brethren!
Greg,
Like I said, I agree also with what I "think" Blaine is trying to express. Dead men from cemeteries, I mean seminaries, with no vibrant life in Jesus are not the answer. However, using that one text of "unlearned men" being called as a broad brushstroke to diminish the entire NT's admonition a, warnings & clear instruction concerning study, sound doctrine, etc. is taking an isotext without context for a pretext. It's dangerous, unbiblical, & unbalanced. I say that with no arrogance or harshness either, but a love for the truth & as Jesus said in John, "father, Sanctify them by the truth. Thy Word is truth". I was called as unlearned, foolish, unwise, unnoble & simple man too. And I am never to esteem myself more highly than I ought. But this is not an excuse to not study to show myself approved, a workman "WHO NEED NOT BE ASHAMED", but rightly dividing the Word of truth. And the admonition a to "correct, rebuke, reprove....etc." and countless other New Testament scriptures to hold fast to Paul's way of life AND HIS DOCTRINE/TEACHING. I think Docs words were wise and rightly placed also. There are two extremes that are ditches are both sides of the highway to holiness. "Reactionary theology" is always problematic & overtime out of balance flips a table over. And I am in contact with underground churches in Iran & elsewhere & false doctrine is an issue at times. biblical Study & right doctrine puts it right side up & keeps the devil out. After all, the enemies greatest attempt to derail God is to question and pervert His Word. Same way since the Garden: "Did God really say?..." SPIRIT AND TRUTH.
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