Is this what God intended?

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... The Jews were astonished, saying, "How has this man become learned, having never been educated?" So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not mine but He who sent me."...John 7:15-16

... But the helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, He will teach you all things, and bring to remembrance all that I said to you... John 14:26

... As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you but as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and it's not a lie, and just as it has taught you, and you abide in Him...1 John 2:27

... Now as they observered the confidence of Peter and John and understood they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and begin to recognize them as having been with Jesus... Acts 4:13

Brothers and sisters as I look at the above vereses and others in the New Testament I have to ask where do we get this idea that only the professional theologian can reveal to us the truth of God's word.

Even Jesus Himself was not educated in the traditional synagogue theological model of his day. He did not study at a rabbinical School. Or attach Himself as Saul of Tarsus. did to a particular leading rabbi. But Jesus through a relationship with his Father received spiritual truth.

The disciple that Jesus called to Himself were an eclectic bunch. They were not the theologians of their day. But they were fishermen, tax collectors, zealots, and so on. Untrained uneducated men who were not in the rabbinical schools of their day. But they were in relationship to the Son of God. And after Pentecost they were empowered with the Holy Spirit. So empowered, that they stunned the religious establishment leadership of their day.

Peter and John and the other disciples did not have degrees from Westminister or Dallas Theological Seminary. Or for that matter from Jerusalem Seminary. What they had was a three-year education of hands-on experience with Jesus. And then they were empowered by the Holy Spirit to go out and shake the world. And at the close out of the first century the gospel had been preached to most of the civilized world at that time.

The first century Apostles and those who followed in their steps operated in the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ. They operated through listening to the Holy Spirit and hearing truth as conveyed by Him. The first century Church learned the truth about Jesus Christ in relationship to Him and to one another.

In the house churches that were birthed during the first century there was no one man standing up in front of the congregation with a ThD. The congregants were not seated as facing one man and each one looking at the back of one another's head to hear truth expounded from the scriptures.

In all likelihood the house churches would be seated in a circle where the members would look at one another. Then there would be body ministry or a word we used to use in the Jesus movement "body life". Each member would be expected to participate with a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All things were done for the edification of the body as Paul describes in i Corinthians 14;26.

The spirit was very vibrant in the first century Church. But as the years went by after the first-century closed out. The church became more organized. In a sense it became more Jewish in its structure.

We can look the Constitine who gave rise to the professional clergy and laity. To the idea that only those who were educated in a theological system could expand the truth in Scripture. In essence the Holy Spirit was snuffed out.

What we have here in America is totally unbiblical. We have substituted the relationship to Christ and His Spirit to reveal truth to us into the hands a professional clergy. It is far easier to trust someone with a degree from Master's Seminary to reveal biblical truth to us. Then to trust the Holy Spirit to open up His word to us. I have seen that in this forum.

The professional clergyman with his degrees from various theological seminaries is far more capable of opening up biblical truth then the Holy Spirit who authored the scriptures.

Even in this forum to suggest that one can receive truth with an open Bible and the Holy Spirit to instruct him and the things of Christ is frowned on and comsidered heresy. I keep hearing through the posting of some of the forum members we need to trust those that have been to seminary. We need to trust those that have Seminary degrees.

Brethren I ask is this what God ever intended. Did God ever intend for His Word to be left in the hands of a professional theologian. Did God ever mean for the professional seminarian to break forth his truth.

Those of you who claim to be out of the Reformation heritage. Those of you who claim to be Sola Scriptura. What of William Tyndale who died to give the ploigh boy and milk maid a Bible to challenge the Catholic doctrine of their day? Did he ever mean for the Bible to be left in the hands of the Catholic clergy? Did he ever mean for the Bible to be left in the hands of the Protestant clergy.

Yet this is what is happening. We are trusting those who come out of seminary to open up spiritual truth. We think if we're not sitting under someone for Master's Seminary or Westminster Seminary we are not receiving biblical truth. I think Tyndale himself would weep over this.

I submit that this is not what God intended. He meant for His word to be understood under the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. His word was meant to be understood directly in relationship to Him.

I know some, perhaps many, will object to this. But then I say gently you are arguing from a religious spirit. God's word can be understood under the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. God's word can be understood in relationship to the Lord Jesus Christ believing that he will reveal spiritual truth to the hungry heart that seeks it.

God meant for His word to be understood by the Spirit filled heart that truly submits to His teaching.

This truly is from the shadow of His cross.

What is the definition of a "professional Theologian"?

a/ unbeliever
b/ deceived christian
c/ wolf in sheep's coat
d/ true christian
e/ other

I say all of the above can be a professional theologian.

We need to test the spirits in each case whether they agree with the bible. To do this we need sound biblical doctrine.

Ephesians 4:11-16King James Version (KJV)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Brother I believe you articulated more clearly what I'm trying to say.

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... But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ gift... and he gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the statue which belongs to the fullness of Christ...Ephesians 4:7,11-13

Some argue that we need these positions in the church. I agree. Above what is called the five-fold ministry is needed. But notice these are spiritual gifts with a spiritual calling. They are not the professional clergyman. But those individuals that God does call from the local body to be the apostle, the prophet, the evangelist, the pastor, and the teacher. This is the working of the Holy Spirit in the body, the bride of Christ.

Paul's whole letter to the Ephesians is to show that the bride is the spiritual body of Christ. The body of Christ is where He dwells. If Jesus is dwelling in the midst of his body, then there will be an organic life of the Dpirit.

But if He is not dwelling in the life of his bride, then all we have is a dead religious institution of organizational unity.

Simply my thoughts.

Brother I would gladly sit under the teaching of the man you mentioned. Would that God would raise up more Spirit-filled leaders as this brother. But then as the times grow darker I do believe there will be a Spirit-filled remnant that God will bring forth. Our brother Frank writes so much about this.

Then brothers if I may look at this from a different angle. Will the existing American evangelical structure endure the fires of persecution? I speak of the existing one man congregate model. I speak of the traditional biblical education of a four-year seminary. I speak up learning systematic theology in a classroom. And everything that entails this existing structure. Will it endure the fires of persecution.

If we believe persecution is coming to America and indeed it is already here. Then the question needs to be asked will the American church endure the increased persecutions.

If I look at the history of countries where there have been established religious structures. I would have to say the answer is no. I do not believe that the American evangelicals structure will endure persecution. Indeed she may very well stagger and fall under persecution.

It seems to me that the need of the hour is to encourage believers in Jesus in America to go deeper in a faith Walk With Jesus. It would seem the need of the hour is to teach a crucified Life for the resurrected Christ to live in us. As the persecutions increased I believe this will be a driving dynamic for the formation of house churches. This will be an environment in which the Holy Spirit can truly operate in. I think the fellowship meetings that Greg is encouraging across the nation is a step in the right direction. There will be a need for more such meetings formed by the Holy Spirit to give encouragement to one another to go deeper in the things of Christ. To lay down our lives so that His life will be in us.

The established evangelical church in America will not endure the onslaught of persecution. Many coming out of seminary environments will not endure the onslaught of persecution. Indeed it will be the religious evangelical structure that will betray the remnant of believers to the prosecuting authorities.

For sure God will call forth a remnant out of the established evangelical structure to follow Him. But this will be those believers who understand the way of the cross and embrace it. And they are willing to lay down their lives for Jesus.

During the Communist takeover of China. There were those evangelical pastors who capitulated to the Communists. Some of these were trained in evangelical seminaries. They had fine theology. But they were not taught to lay down everything at the cross of Jesus and to take it up and follow Him. They fell. And I fear that many American seminarians in the evangelical structure will fall. But in the tragedy of persecution God has birthed a triumphant vibrant house church movement in China.

Religion cannot endure persecution. Often religion will be the driving force of persecution. Ultimately it was not the Romans who put Jesus to death. But it was the religious leadership of his day. And so history teachers that pattern. The Catholics persecuted those who held to the teachings of Christ up through the Reformation and beyond. But then the Protestants turned around and persecuted the Anabaptists, the simple Saints who loved the truth of Jesus. Particularly as it regarded the baptism of believers only. Again religion has been the persecutor of the remnant.

I pray that God will call forth a remnant out of the religious structure in America. A remnant that will cling to the cross of Christ. A remnant that will live out the crucified Life of Christ so that His resurrection life will live in them. For this will be the true church that will endure in North America.

Simply my thoughts.

Very well said! I totally and whole heartedly agree! I give the benefit of the doubt in that regards to Blaine as well. My only "concern" was that without a little more clarification, some (even many, especially the young in the faith without a good working knowledge of the Word of God & years walking with the Lord) would misunderstand and run with something from what he said (and didn't say/clarify). I hope that makes sense? 😊
God Bless!
Jeff

Blaine,
Yes, Most will not make it within that current religious professional framework. Lord willing, God will use the persecution to wake up some who are genuinely His but backslidden/apathetic/distracted to a new level in their walk and ministry, but yes, the charlatans & career professionals will be exposed. The whole system model is mostly messed up to begin with (which is why we left it years ago for the house fellowship model, and even those can get off track of not focused rightly, but that's another subject). I "cut my spiritual teeth" as a newborn babe with mostly just the Word of God in a prison cell for almost 2 years. Fasting, praying, reading the Word, evangelizing & walking with God. I praise God for that time in establishing the foundation for my walk & calling right off. Lots of different "flavors" of ministers came in from various theological persuasions/denominations, but I just tested it all up against the Word. And when I got out, I knew I was called (not to pastoral ministry, but called how I am called & gifted nonetheless) so I did what I thought I was supposed to do (& God led me - it was still part of His sovereign plan) & put myself through Bible College/Seminary. Most of it was really a waste of time & money in large part, but some of it was really beneficial. "Jewish Roots of the Faith" was definitely the class I remember most & was the most beneficial because the class & teacher were so good. Anyways, I have to return to the simplicity of the Word, but the fact is, if I don't know and misunderstand the original Words Jesus used when He spoke because it was "over/mis-translated" then how is it not beneficial & right to look it up in the original Greek (or Hebrew if OT) & see what was really being said? This is a good thing. God desires for us to walk in truth & riht understanding & such is not "unspiritual" but quite the opposite. To walk in Error & continue when such information is available to us trough study is...well...foolish. "Well Jesus didn't attend synogauge school....." Yes, but he no doubt knew the scriptures, he no doubt grew up knowing & understanding Hebrew, Aramaic (most scholars think was spoken in NT time Israel), & likely Greek. He no doubt understood the Hebraic Cultural symbolism, euphemisms, & culturally common examples used in scripture as it was written by people in His day first for Those in His day (& beyond of course). But we don't. So, we must study & open up our hearts humbly to mine & seek the Lord on such truths. Such is not inherently wrong, but if done for the sake of understanding the Word of God better, then we are honoring God, His Word, the ministry, etc. not despising it. Sure, where commentaries are concerned we must be careful. I use commentaries sometimes, but I remember at best they are just commentaries. Maybe I gain insight I didn't have on a matter or maybe I say "I don't know about that. Could just be their opinion?" We each have to evaluate these things on our own. But studying the Word, etymology & history is a good thing. Let us each be convinced of things before we presume to stand in the place of a "teacher" in any respect and know that greater/stricter judgement awaits those who teach. Let us not take this lightly or flippantly. Whether in a pastoral "career" position, leading Internet forum threads as "experts" or "teachers" on a matter, or whatever. We all will stand before God and give account for every word. Sobering no doubt. Without a true calling from God, Semonary or not seminary is irrelevant. One must be called not by a profession but by the Living God. If this was your intention in your OP and main point - brother, I wholeheartedly agree. Totally!
God Bless!
Jeff

by twayneb on 2016/7/12 20:07:21

Of all of the early NT church leaders, Paul (apostle), Luke (evangelist), and Matthew (apostle) are the only ones that I know of that had any record of any form of formal education. Paul was the only one with what we might call a seminary degree (trained by Gamaliel). No one would ever claim that these men were less anointed or less used by the Holy Spirit due to their education.

And Paul would say (and did) that only revelation from the Holy Spirit benefited him and not his religious education.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

The knowledge of Christ, he learned by revelation of the Holy Spirit.

Once you start to receive revelation you realize you don't need a school of religious study but rather the "school of the Spirit".