The Lord's Supper

Great teaching! Thanks Savannah. While I was listening I remembered of some meetings I had been in in the past, now I know why they were so good. Very clear biblical teaching. This stuff always felt good to me, now I know the reason.
I appreciate the Hebrew background information also. Thanks forrest. That short video shed light to things I didn't know before:
1. why Jesus said I go away and make a house (place) for you
2. What was the waiting for the groom in the parable of the ten virgins all about.
3. Why did Jesus say that he will not drink of the wine till he comes back, and what it meant.
4. What turning the water to wine meant to the Jews.

NTRF has some great articles. They had a book I can't find anymore called, "The Ekklesia". Misplaced my copy. What a great book. Videos were very good.

Thanks, Savannah.

Ahhh, now I remember. The original, "Ekklesia" book was written by Beresford Job. Now, there seems to be a new one called, "Ekklesia: To the Roots of Biblical Church Life", by Steve Atkerson. Does anyone know what happened to Beresford Job? I don't see him on NTRF anymore.

Jon Zens of NTRF: also like his writings. Check out: The Pastor Has No Clothes - Moving from Clergy Centered Church to Christ Centered Ekklesia

I just found Beresford's blog. This will be a gold mine. It seems Beresford has finally been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century having been persuaded to start a Blog.
https://beresfordjob.wordpress.com/

Very informative videos on the supper thanks.

The Quakers, originally started because they held to the doctrine of Christ's return being in this life, the second blessing, entire sanctification and that Christ's supper was to be in anticipation for the marriage supper of the Lamb which is for this life.

Those who had been through the baptism of fire, or as George Fox put it, come up through the flaming sword into the Garden of Eden, returned to the state of Adam before the fall, were now at the Lord's table constantly, eating and drinking with Him, or sharing in His life. This was not to be when one had first come to Christ but at a later date when He comes to reign in them fully.

Many in the church pray the Lord's prayer which as the vids say is an extention of the communion, saying Thy kingdom come thinking that it will only come at the end of this life. Historically they have strongly disapproved of those on the other side of the divide but some do begin to see it and then pray with ernest to be amongst the baptised.

There is no point in a dispute as you cannot open eyes, that is something God must do. You can only give your testimoney.

To be eating and drinking at His table, here and now, and knowing that the marriage supper is for this life, is something beyond words to describe.

But until then, as I did in the past, the communion service will be a blessing to many and hotly defended. I wish God's blessing on all of His people whatever their stance.

Julius I like Jon Zens and have read a lot of his writings too.

While there is a great depth of spiritual truth to be found in the Lord's Supper (or the Table of the Lord), it is something we are to do "in rememberance of me (Jesus, speaking of himself in the Gospel account) UNTIL WE DRINK IT ANEW WITH HIM IN HIS FATHER'S KINGDOM (not yelling, caps for emphasis only). The scriptural context of Revelation 19 where it speaks of "The Wedding Supper of the Lamb" is the Angel telling John that "blessed is the one who is invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb". This is after Babylon, that great prostitute has fallen (in chapter 18), & right in the context of chapter 19-20 where, as I showed clearly in another thread, the false prophet & antichrist are thrown into the lake of fire, Satan is bound and sealed in the pit (still future), Jesus comes and "treads the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty", the angel calls the birds of the air to come feed on the dead flesh of those who opposed Christ and were slain, Satan is once for all thrown into the lake of fire, the great white throne judgement & Day of the Lord, the new heavens and new earth, etc.

So while the Lord's Supper (or communion if you prefer) is to "remember" Jesus and the cross, & look forward to His return, it isn't the wedding supper itself. It's a foretatste of it. It's like an engagement (or betrothal if you will) "rehearsal dinner" before (& in anticipation of) the real thing after he returns and the wedding is consummated. If you study the Jewish engagement & wedding process (which all the original audience was well acquainted with and understood - far different in some ways from our modern western form of engagement & marriage), you'd see that "the Bride price" was agreed upon, & Calvary paid that bride price! The father took the son back to "His house" & is building "insula" (many "rooms" is a better translation than "mansions") onto His father's house at this time. Once the insula is complete & the Father approves and says, "it is complete & it is time", the Father sends the bridegroom into the streets of that city to gather all the "virgins" & wedding guests! The son doesn't even know when that day of hour is exactly (though the son knows when it's close obviously), it is the Father's discretion of when it is time. The Father calls the friend of the groom, the cry goes out, those ready come in, & the door is then SHUT so no thieves or robbers can come in. If the "proper guests" don't come, the Father implores them to bring them in off the highways and byways that the house may be full!

Then the marriage is actually consummated. Then comes the wedding supper celebration. We have pictures and tastes of this marriage & this kingdom, but we don't have its fullness/completion. The Quakers or anyone else got this wrong if they attest that we already have it (just like they got "absolute sinless perfection" in this life wrong & in the same way Preterists take the events of 70 AD & say that the "mini-type" taste of events was EVERYTHING & now it's all done and wrapped up including even the Day of the Lord which happened in 70 AD & apparently only a non-believing Josephus recorded it? As Ravenhill used to say - "That's Balderdash!").

But the fullness & true final fulfillment of these realities only tasted upon now are still to come at the "consummation of all things". They are the events immediately proceeding & upon & after the Day of the Lord! The Day all the prophets & apostles spoke of & looked to, & called us to long for.

And when we start making the tastes/types the actual fulfillment, we do, in a way, what the errant Jews did who clung to Moses (the Mosaic Law being the types/shadows/foretastes of Messainic first coming prophecy) over the Messiah (the actual fulfillment) & many of them missed it.

Matthew 25 says:
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, THEN (caps my added for emphasis) he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

I am longing for "that day" as did all the prophets and apostles. And that's actually what the Lord's Supper is about in large part too. Eating and drinking of the Messiah & all that means & longing for that day when He returns and (fully, actually) establishes His kingdom over all the earth for eternity.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian here, I promise. But I think these things have profound importance Biblically & we should be "hastening" (which is a poor translation really - "awaiting eagerly" is more correct to the Greek) the Day of His return & having an eternal perspective and looking forward to "the age to come" with great expectation! This life in this age is just a taste even for citizens of the heavenly kingdom. It's not just a matter of "theological knowledge for the sake of it" but I really do think a "preteristic" view on everything being "completed now already" as opposed to a future, Day of the Lord, Consummation of All things, Day of the Lord-Centric view has profound implications on how we live, how we preach/teach, etc. And I think telling the believers who have flown the wreckage of Syria & Iraq, who are getting murdered in the streets of Nigeria, Congo, Sudan, etc. & those imprisoned in Iran, Eritrea, North Korea, etc.,- "well, this is it! This is the kingdom in its fullness! The Kingdom NOW & nothing less!" frankly is a sham! I actually believe it impunes the character of God, brings into question the scriptures as a whole, etc. And every step in that direction that makes things the Lord puts in a future context (like Revelation 17-21, Matthew 25, etc.) to be metaphorically somehow realized now (not in part or anticipatory type, but saying in full, "this is it") is a misinterpretation and misapplication of His Word.

Not trying to pick a fight or just be right either. I think the implications to God, the Gospel, His Word, & His character/faithfulness is massive. And once we start down this road, in my opinion and the experience I have seen, it's just a matter of time or something and it gets more and more explained away into past and or present & the "great hope" of the Day of the Lord, the Wedding Supper of the Lamb, the Consummation of all things, the age to come, etc. gets lessened. And this great hope has held the church strong through the ages in the face of tremendous struggle, peril, persecution, trial, etc. These are things I think at least should be considered.

May the Lord bless you all today as you seek Him through His Word & leads you into all truth humbly by His Spirit!
In Jesus,
Jeff

So while the Lord's Supper (or communion if you prefer) is to "remember" Jesus and the cross, & look forward to His return, it isn't the wedding supper itself. It's a foretatste of it.

I have not thought of that before. Very good. Yes the piece of bread and the sip of wine, which are taken properly as part of a meal but separate to it, are a foretaste of the banquet of the marriage supper.

But the fullness & true final fulfillment of these realities only tasted upon now are still to come at the "consummation of all things". They are the events immediately proceeding & upon & after the Day of the Lord! The Day all the prophets & apostles spoke of & looked to, & called us to long for.

Yes the Day of the Lord was spoken of throughout the OT and the NT is when the kingdom of God comes to reign in us, in completion and fullness, in His temple which is now our bodies, and we know when that time has come and Jeff dear, if it has not happened to you and you are still looking to the future for that kingdom to reign within you, and seeing the fulfillment of the promises, then you will be missing out. Jesus said the kingdom is within us or rather can be if we believe in it..

There is still the matter of our fallen bodies, but Christ came in order for us to be what God intended from the start.

It is those who have the kingom within them or rather had, that enabled them to stand in the past and persevere and in these perilous times, it will be necessary for this doctrine to be preached boldly once again otherwise men will fail and fall.

But you disagree with me but that is okay. The shaking that is coming will change the minds of a lot of men.

No Brenda, I am sorry, but I must state emphatically here publically that I believe that to be a false doctrine (overstated & out of context based on some seeds of truth as most false doctrines, heresies & Gnosticism is).

The kingdom of God is (in seed form) within His saints. No doubt. But the eternal kingdom as it will stand forever comes upon His appearing at the Day of the Lord. This is not that. I'm sorry, but it just isn't. WAY TOO MUCH scripture has to be twisted or deleted to prop that up. And only "those in the know" even among those born again "are in on the secret". A VERY Gnostic feel to those things. And the whole "sinless perfection this side of the grave" idea. Really? The apostle Paul knew nothing of this. Nor did John or the other apostles. Nor did the early church. Nor does the church in the Middle East 10/40 window right now laying down their lives and having their heads chopped off, their bodies/homes/churches burned, their wives & daughters ravaged, etc. But YOU & those IN THE KNOW here who have looked at "SO CALLED DEEP TEACHINGS" of these men know and have experienced it, huh? I don't mean this to be hard or harsh or arrogant. Lord knows I do not. But it is a Gnostic overtone that uses a borderline (if not outright) Gnostic hermeneutic ("secret knowledge" not even the blood borne again converted spirit filled aflame disciples who live as martyrs know - but only those who listen to the secret teachers with all the secret knowledge). It explains away passages & full contexts of scripture like most of the OT, the Olivet Discourse & several clear verses in Matthew 19-25, many things in the book of Acts, Revelation 17-21, etc. and eventually the wedding has already been done, the kingdom is already FULLY MANIFESTED, Jesus has already sat on His throne, the still future promises to Israel in Romans 11 & elsewhere are explained Away, we are on a track to sinless perfection before we even receive our ressurected & glorified bodies, etc. This is the breeding ground for Preterism & for
"Whoever is caught Adding to the words of the book of the prophecy..." & "whoever takes away from the words of this book of prophecy...", etc.

Just be careful. I'm sure mudslinging will likely follow this post, but Only share these things out of concern & love for the flock. God is my witness.
In Jesus,
Jeff

Jeff

Just to be clear, you are opposing men and women who say, even without ever hearing the teaching that:

I struggled as a believer and felt l let Christ down, over and over, by the sins that l could not stop. Then He showed me one day that His power was there to enable me to walk in purity if l only believed it. I took that step out in faith, and since then His power has kept me obedient and His kingdom is now within me fully and l praise Him without ceasing.

That's the secret. Christ in me the hope of glory. Those who wish to argue for sin do not know the kingdom and l have great sorrow for them.

I agree with everything in that post Brenda! Whole-heartedly! Amen & praise God for Christ in Us the Hope of Glory. The overcomers! Amen, hallelujah & praise God! I would NEVER make excuse or place for sin in my theology (& Lord willing in my life!)! I am staunchly a "holiness" guy.

Now, "sinless perfection doctrine" (this side of glory) I can not agree with, sorry. The one who doesn't know the level or degree of sin within, etc. should be equally aware that they will not achieve their theology in practice, but that's not making an excuse for sin - that's just the reality of it, sorry.

And the kingdom is in its fullness & victory now, this is it now, satan has already been bound, & everything that is prophesied for the end has already happened except the day of the Lord (basically a 95% Preterism stance), I am also sorry - I cannot agree with. A foretaste of the kingdom now within the Body! Yes and amen! But the fullness of the eternal kingdom in place as I watch brethren get their heads chopped off & sin abounding in the earth? No. I'm sorry. Now (a taste) & not yet (the full manifestation of the prophesied eternal kingdom reality in its fullness forever). Matthew 25 says "WHEN he sits on His glorious throne..." & Revelation 17-21 doesn't match that. Not much of Acts. Nor church history. Neither church historical doctrine (outside maybe of Augustine/Origen & those who followed them and read their words as if they were inspired). I hope I am being clear & not leaving room for confusion of what I am and am not saying. The wedding has not yet been consummated at the regeneration of all things. We are betrothed to the Bridegroom, but His father has not yet made the call to bring us in and shut the door once and for all! This is clear in the NT (& OT) as a whole I think. And the whole "secret keys" thing often has such a weird taste to it. The fact is, Christ in Us the hope of glory is not a secret! It's basic NT Christian Doctrine 101! We are overcomers! Amen! But there is still more to come and change greatly in terms of the once and for all eternal kingdom.

Anyways, I'm done repeating that. I feel it's important. May God bless you richly sister!
Jeff

Jeff, if you agree with what l have said, then the only disagreement is regarding the extent to which we are able to turn from sin. We are in agreement that it is through the power of God, and that power cannot be insufficient in any way. So the fault must lie with us.

To say that because you find yourself lacking in ability to use the power of God at times, and then assume it is the same for everyone, is to make a unreasonable assumption.

What is the thought that comes to you when you are at that point? I don't mean for you to repeat it on here, just try to remember it. Now, do you think it is from you or Satan? And does it spoil your witness? Again, no need to reply.

At that point, it depends on how much we hate our sin. If it has brought us to the depths of despair in our desire for holiness then we will be done with it and no longer find an excuse or reason rather as we will call it.

Finding victory here, changes the way we see everything. It only takes proof of being wrong over one thing, and our whole perspective can change and expand. Bless you brother.

Brenda,
That sounds good and all at first glance, but sinless perfection is something neither the apostles nor early church knew of. Who is it you know who actually achieved sinless perfection in this life?
God bless,
Jeff

Jeff here is the list:

Job
Noah
Abraham
Paul
James
Matthew
Hezekiah
George Fox
Charles Finney

Just a few.

Brenda,
Respectfully, I'm sorry, but I just don't think so. I have read & studied the Biblical accounts of Job, Noah Hezekiah, & Abraham, & the actual Biblical Doctrinal epistles of Paul, James, etc. And I have read about the lives & ministry of Finney & Fox. I didn't see "Sinless Perfection". That is a doctrine of twisting the words of scripture to "shoe-horn" such a doctrine to try to fit reality. It involves changing the definition of words. And I believe it usually/can involves a sense of overly self-confident trust in one's own true condition through & through (which is just a sneaky form of pride).
Now do I believe one can walk free from sin? Yes. Do I believe believers can overcome sins that are besetting to them & walk in a clear conscience before God with peace & open fellowship with God & man? Yes. But I do believe one can achieve "sinless perfection" of guaranteed absolute perfection (in the sense of the word meaning "flawlessness", not where it's translated that way for "maturity") in every word, thought & deed for the rest of their life while still in this Body of flesh? No I do not. Even the apostle Paul in scripture in 1 Corinthians 4 stated:
"3But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me.5Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

6I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Not even Paul was a proponent of "sinless perfection", unless by saying "sinless perfection" you mean something other than "sinless perfection". In which case such people should call it something else as it is deceiving and a self-puffing doctrine that I believe is delusional & twists scriptures and the definitions of words.

Anyways, I will not commit any more time to this subject. I think an honest look at it Biblically speaks for itself. I pray that such teaching eventually (if not immediately) gets exposed through inner checks by the Holy Spirit & the Word of God IN ITS FULL CONTEXTUAL MEANING moves people of this persuasion out of it. Read 1 John 1:26-27. Again, I believe in walking in victory & freedom from sin, conquering as an overcomer in Jesus, & the reality of a place where we can walk with no known sin between us and God or us and man. But I do not believe the Bible teaches "sinless perfection". Only one ever pulled that off & His name was Jesus. And that's why we need His blood to wash, purify & atone for our sins, past, present & future.
God Bless,
Jeff

It seems to me that "sinless perfection" doctrine is historically founded as a "reactionary theology" response to the opposite extreme error of anti-nomianism. Fact is, they are both wrong, unbalanced & unscriptural. A "case" can be made for both using isolated scriptures out of context and straw-man arguments, both they are both wrong. Reactionary theology (a theology based out of a reaction to one error swung hard the other way) always tends to be that way.