The Mark of the Beast

Michael Brown has an online debate with an SDA on Sunday vs Saturday sabbath observance as a New Covenant law. Tim Conway also has an "ask Tim" session where he addresses this on the "I'll Be Honest" site/app - FYI. Sunday (as scripture in Acts says "the believers met on the first day of the week, the Lord's Day..." & Hebrews 4 explains the "sabbath rest" of God He intends (I don't judge those who corporately worship on Saturday or Sunday, but there's no NT "Law" where we have to meet on Saturday to observe "the sabbath" as defined in the Mosaic Law. There are multiple scriptures like Hebrews 4, Colossians 2, Jesus in the Gospels explaining "the sabbath was made for man & not man for the sabbath", etc. to make this case plainly from scripture. I know all the arguments (have had MANY discussions both online and in person with SDA's) & how they "twist & pervert the scriptures" to make their doctrine, but it's bogus.

Scripture tells us that "The mark of the beast is something without which no man can buy or sell save the mark on his right hand or on his forehead". That pretty obviously has nothing to do with sabbath observance on one day or another.

Dr Brown debates a Seventh Day Adventist on Line of Fire Call in show
https://youtu.be/978dYsM5LoU

Pastor Tim Conway on Seventh Day Adventism: Cult or Not?
https://youtu.be/65PcypkGaew

And once you study the ridiculous and outrageous things SDA "prophesied" that didn't come true, the insane & unbiblical things Ellen White taught, how her dead husband's spirit spoke to her to override scripture (a demon masquerading), etc., it becomes clear SDA & their whole doctrine and cult is just as (if not more) dangerous than the Roman Catholic Church, which is one of the main focuses of their theology & eschatology.

You people know nothing at all. The mark already occurred
on July 12 70 A.D. Subsequent events in history are only a
spiritual illusion of what already transpired eons ago.
Therefore when reading prophetic writings in the Bible
remember people that its all spiritual, nothing is real
in the sense of time and space as we know it.
You may be wondering how I am aware of these deep deep truths and I am wondering that as well.

You people know nothing at all.

Brother,

If you are not going to refrain from such language and accusations of saints then we would encourage you not to participate in the forums here and we can gladly shut down your account. There is no need for using hard language and speaking that way to believers even if there is such a vast disagreement.

On the SDA Church we included a message that is very much worth hearing on the history of the group:

Seventh-Day Adventism a Cult? by Phil Johnson
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=25907&commentView=itemComments

Lighten up Greg, was just kidding. Or is humor not allowed here?

(as you can see,my whole post was rather ludicrous. And the worse part is some people will actually believe it)

.
I lean toward the mark being some type of a computer or RFID chip. But remember the mark will also come with the worship of the beast or the antichrist.

Just a little humor. I was watching one of the end time movies on YouTube. As if I have too much time on my hands. In the movue a young lady was selling some groceries to those remnant saints that did not make the rapture. Just to bring a little humor she said will that be cash or chip. Get it...cash or chip. Yuk yuk.:)

Okay now back to the serious discussion of what is the mark?

TMK,
Then if you take that preterist (preter meaning "past things") reading of it (they do the same hermeneutic argument and stress - "soon" & "near" & say the same thing, even though near & soon mean different things to the Lord than to us, then you must also say some very clear things about the Olivet discourse in Matthew 24-25, about I John 2, etc. Not only that, but then you are FORCED to look at Revelation 17-22 a certain way too. Because there the "beast" (as he called there), is thrown into the lake of fire with the false prophet & after that is the great white throne judgement. Not only that, but Revelation 13 which speaks of the calculating of the number of his name says, "This calls for wisdom, let the one who has understanding, calculate the number of of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666." - ESV, Revelation 13:18. It says absolutely nothing about it being written only to his readers at that time. Zero.

Yes, Revelation 1-3 is written with specific words, letters, to the churches in Asia Minor. But the rest of the book from 4-22 is clearly a prophetic book. The fact is, Those churches all died out in Asia Minor (modern day Turkey) & their candlesticks were taken from them & Islam has ruled them for centuries.

But the nature of prophesy in scripture can't always be quickly relegated away to only the current audience. That immediate and surrounding context must be considered, but you can't take Isaiah's or other OT Prophet's prophesies and say that they all had nothing to do with their immediate impact on Israel at the time, nor can you say none of them had any future prophetic significance. We look at context & compare scripture with scripture. If you try to relegate Revelation to ONLY the immediate readers (which the verses you were speaking of in Revelation 13 - NEVER ONCE DO THAT OR ANY SUCH THING), then why did he go on and on about so many things they would never live to see? That's illogical, & clearly not the case. He goes on to explain far future events like the binding of Satan in a pit with the lid placed on it, the beast and false prophet thrown into the lake of fire, the devil thrown into the lake of fire, the great white throne judgement, etc. I agree that Revelation 1-3 was at the very least "mostly just" an immediate application to those churches in those cities at that time. But Revelation 4-22 is clearly prophetic & goes well beyond those churches and all the way up until the end of all things, the new heavens and new earth, etc.
God Bless,
Jeff

Wtchnpray,
I used to think that mystery Babylon, Babylon the great, or the harlot that rides the beast was the RCC. I do not "think" that's the case any more. Especially not Babylon. Not America either.
God Bless,
Jeff

Matthew Henry's interpretation:

"By disfranchisement, allowing none to enjoy natural, civil, or municipal rights, who will not worship that papal beast, that is, the image of the pagan beast. It is made a qualification for buying and selling the rights of nature, as well as for places of profit and trust, that they have the mark of the beast in their forehead and in their right hand, and that they have the name of the beast and the number of his name. It is probable that the mark, the name, and the number of the beast, may all signify the same thing””that they make an open profession of their subjection and obedience to the papacy, which is receiving the mark in their forehead, and that they oblige themselves to use all their interest, power, and endeavour, to promote the papal authority, which is receiving the mark in their right hands. We are told that pope Martin V. in his bull, added to the council of Constance, prohibits Roman catholics from suffering any heretics to dwell in their countries, or to make any bargains, use any trades, or bear any civil offices, which is a very clear interpretation of this prophecy."

I brought that up in another thread on the same subject. Those who have the "mark of Christ" (are true followers of Christ), and will be shunned. They will not be hired for jobs and thus will not be able to provide for their families. Richard Wurmbrand experienced this in Romania. Christians from the first century on have been shunned by society where they could not buy or sell and it is happening today in many persecuted countries. So John the apostle was not lying to the 1st century church.

Those who have the "mark of the beast" (unregenerate), are friends with the world and the world loves its own. If the Christian would just renounce Christ, then they would not be shunned.

I believe Matthew Henry got it right and it has been applicable for every century since Christ.

And I've seen Ceasar Nero, Popes, Antiochus, Obama, Hitler, Stalin, & all kinds of people's names equal 666, so I'm not sure if that's coincidence, shoehorning with numerology, or a pattern that comes with those "many antichrists" John spoke of that we're not "THE antichrist (ie "man of lawlessness", or "son of perdition") in the end. Gog of Magog is a way of saying in Biblical geographical historical terms, the anyichrist from the area of Turkey. This is provable by all of the scriptures (& the recorded commentary opinion/explanation of many Bible scholars historically) that speak on the subject. You can have that explained and proven to you if it interests you, here:

Joel Richardson's The Underground, Episode 48, Gog is the Antichrist, A Historical Survey
https://youtu.be/Aef-ieQmsWY

Christians constantly need the wisdom of Christ (I Cor. 1:24,30) to discern Satan’s activity from Christ’s activity, to distinguish between religion and genuine Christianity. "Here is wisdom,” declares the risen Lord Jesus. "Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six” (13:18). Throughout the Revelation numbers have symbolic significance. Seven is the number of divine perfection, and if the number seven were triplicated as seven hundred and seventy-seven it would represent the triune perfection of the Godhead. The number six falls short of that which is of God. Man certainly falls short of that which is of God and brings glory to God (Rom. 3:23). Six hundred and sixty-six is a number that comes short of perfection. It is a parody on the divine trinity of perfec- tion represented by seven hundred and seventy-seven. It is a number that represents the beast of religion, which though inspired and energized by the self-oriented, rebellious activity of Satan, is evidenced by man’s self-effort to appease and please God apart from Jesus Christ. Religion is man’s best efforts to construct moral systems and theological formulations and institutional structures. It is the best that man can do as he tries to reach God, just as he did at Babel (Gen. 11:1-9).

The "number of the beast” is explicitly identied as "the number of man” (13:18). Many translations and interpretations of this text supply an indefnite article which indicates that the number of the beast is "a man.” The original Greek language of the Revelation has no indenite article, and proper hermeneutic principles allow us to supply such in English translation only if the context demands such for clarity of expression. Such is not the case in this instance. When the indefinite article is supplied it gives the impression that the second beast is to be identi ed as a singular and particular individual man. This has led to much religious obsession with decoding the cryptographic number of "six hundred and sixty-six” in order to identify a particular person. Speculations have included Nero, Caligula, other Roman emperors, Mohammed, various Roman Catholic popes, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Napoleon, Mussolini, Hitler, various United States presidents, leaders of Russia, etc. The numbers can arbitrarily and subjectively be twisted in order to apply to anyone! When such a procedure is employed the primary emphasis of the vision is missed. There is no need to identify this number as a particular historical individual. When the indefinite article is not supplied, a consistent contextual meaning is evident as the "number of the beast” is explained to be the "number of man” or the "number of mankind” as he engages in religious endeavors. Those who would demand a translation and interpretation that supplies the indefinite article identifying the number of the beast as "a man,” must also allow the Jehovah’s Witnesses to do the same in their translation of John 1:1, wherein they indicate that the Word was "a god.” Few Christian religionists would want to allow such, but equity of translation technique would demand such.

James Fowler
http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/RevelationCommEbook.pdf