Kenosis doctrine is heresy

sermonindex Oct 7, 2016

The kenosis (kenotic) heresy leads people to the same trap which took place in Paradise when satan lied to Eve and Adam. The evil satan tempted them to commit sin, promising them that if she would eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, they would know good and evil like God. Adam and Eve did not understand good and evil like God, from the Divine perspective, but from the human perspective. Throughout the history of man, evil satan has tried to deceive people by promising them that they would be God if only they abide by the will of satan. Of course, evil satan does not introduce himself as satan when he tries to lure people into aiming for divinity, but he lies to them, masquerading as a good angel, a spirit guide, the Holy Spirit, or God.

More info: http://www.kotipetripaavola.com/kenosisdoctrineheresy.html

J

JFW Oct 7, 2016

Hebrews 5:
7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

D

dolfan Oct 7, 2016

PetriFB, I understand the legitimate opposition to essentially anything Kenneth Copeland says about Jesus. I get that. There's no shortage of loony theories and half-baked teachings made up out of thin air. Sometimes I think these guys like Copeland and the whole TBN/Daystar crowd just make things up as they are speaking and they just go with it. I don't even know if they believe themselves.

Kenosis is a biblical word. It is a biblical concept. I believe what the Bible says and no more or no less. JFW posted a passage that is relevant to the idea. The link you shared quotes from Philippians 2, which is the main passage about kenosis, I suppose.

Here's what I know: Philippians 2:1-20. Jesus did that. I know the Hebrews 5 passage quoted by JFW (Heb. 5:8, 9). Jesus did that. Luke 2:52. Jesus did that.

Whether that fits inside your link's author's notion of heresy, I don't know. I don't think so, but maybe it does, and I'm okay with it if it does because I'm not concerned about anyone's particular definition of heresy. Like Amercian Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said about pornography: "I know it when I see it."

T

twayneb Oct 7, 2016

PetriFB: I had to look up Kenosis...never had heard it called that before.

As stated I am totally with you. Agreed. It is wrong to believe that Jesus was anything less than God. I think there is, however, a subtle distinction that needs to be made. Jesus NEVER ceased being God. He stated very plainly that He was equal to God, and He was and is.

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He did not think it taking something that did not belong to Him to be equal with God. Yet, he did empty himself (looking at the greek in verse 7) But the subtle distinction is that He did not empty Himself of divine identity, but rather of divine privilege.

Jesus said that He did not do anything on this earth of His own power. He did so as a man anointed by the Holy Spirit of God. His first miracle was not until after His baptism by John and the Holy Spirit descending on Him.

He retained His identity as 100% God and His incarnation as 100% man, yet He chose to live as a man. His miracles were not performed because He was God, but rather because He walked in the power of the Holy Spirit. (quick note: We are anointed with the Holy Spirit by measure. The Bible says He was anointed without measure.) He emptied Himself of His divine privilege of doing miracles as God, of operating of you will in the power of His own divinity, and chose to walk like we do, deriving our strength and power from the Father through the Holy Spirit.

I know it may seem a subtle distinction, but I think it is extremely important.

sermonindex Oct 7, 2016

I agree with Travis 100%

J

JFW Oct 7, 2016

Jesus is Lord:)

T

TMK Oct 7, 2016

Travis has also stated my understanding of this issue.

One way to say it might be that while Jesus was fully divine during his earthly ministry, this was in a sense made irrelevant due to the emptying noted in Phillipians 2.

During his time on earth He had to relate to the Father the same way we do and this is made clear in the gospels.

sermonindex Oct 7, 2016

All Christians are told that we should be like Jesus. Consider how Jesus, the perfect pattern of a human vessel, functioned by faith in His Father. In the book of John there are numerous scriptures that show his human vessel-hood. Here are a few of them:

John 5:19,30. "The Son can do nothing of himself, and of my own self I can do nothing." The human Jesus had no power of his own.

John 5:31-33. "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." Jesus didn't bear his own witness.

John 5:43. "I am come in my Father's name." Jesus did not come in his own name.

John 6:38. "I came not to do my own will." He did not do his own will.

John 6:57. "I live by the Father." He didn't have his own life.

John 7:16. "My doctrine is not mine." Jesus didn't have a doctrine or teaching of his own.

John 7:28. "I am not come of myself." The Father sent him.

John 8:16. "If I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me." His judgment was not his own.

John 8:28-29. "That I do nothing of myself, but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." He didn't learn from himself, and he didn't teach himself.

John 8:50. "I seek not mine own glory." His glory is not His.

John 8:54. "If I honor myself, my honor is nothing." He doesn't honor himself.

John 12:49. "I have not spoken of myself." Jesus didn't speak his own words.

John 14:10. "I speak not of myself, but the Father that dwelleth in me He doeth the works." His works were not his works.

Somehow, we Christians think that we are better than Jesus. This is how we think: "I know that You say we can't live the life on our own, Jesus; but I can, and I will." Do you see the foolish pride of Christians who think "we can do it" when even the Son of God didn't live as if He were separate from his Father?

B

BranchinVINE Oct 8, 2016

Agree with Travis and tuc.

sermonindex Oct 8, 2016

Why are we not to believe that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit after water baptism?

First of all, because that is not true. Secondly, because believing that lie may also lead people to believe other heresies, such as that Jesus only became the Lord (God) after He had been filled with the Holy Spirit; and the heresy of Jesus being reborn when He was filled with the Holy Spirit; and that Jesus had to be anointed with the Holy Spirit so that He was capable of performing His ministry on earth, etc.

Because Jesus was and is God at all times, He did not need the experience of being filled with the Holy Spirit, because He Himself is an eternal Spirit, God, who always has the power of the Spirit, and that is why He was full of the Holy Spirit of God. If you fail to understand this doctrine of the Deity of Jesus as the Bible teaches us, you are running the risk of getting lost in the maze of the kenosis doctrine.

Some people who uphold the kenosis doctrine say that when Jesus said the Son can do nothing of himself, so it is the proof that the kenosis doctrine is Biblical and correct. When we study the Bible, we see that the aforesaid thing is not true.

John 5:
15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.
16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
17 Â¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The Lord Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath day. The Jews persecuted Jesus, because He had healed a man on the Sabbath day. The Lord Jesus did not say that He healed this man being himself as the man or that He was not God when He healed this man. The Lord Jesus said, My Father works till now, and I work.

The Lord Jesus meant that like the Father is doing His works, so also the Son (Jesus) is doing His (the Son) works like the Father works. In other words, the Lord Jesus meant that He is God, who is doing the works of God. The Jews understood this matter exactly in that way that Jesus made Himself as God and broke the Sabbath. Jesus didn't break the Sabbath.

The words of Jesus that He can do nothing Himself, but what He sees the Father do, for what things soever He does, these also does the Son likewise means that Jesus is doing the will of His Father, but not that Jesus Himself is unable to make miracles. The Lord Jesus said the He make the things that the Father is doing. The Lord Jesus did everything by Himself, but not against the will of His Father. When the Bible speaks about the will of God, so it means that Jesus as God has the same will as His Father has.

When you understand this so you understand that Jesus' words the Son can do nothing Himself, but what He sees the Father do, means that Jesus doesn't do anything against the will of His Father, and all what Jesus did, He did it as God and He has the same will as His Father has. When the Bible says that Jesus emptied (kenoo) Himself and took on him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man, so it means that Jesus voluntarily went away from the glory of God's kingdom and came to be God in the fashion of a man on the earth to atone sins of the mankind. When Jesus emptied Himself, He didn't give up from His Deity, but that God became as the flesh, in other words as a man. The Kenosis doctrine is a heresy, because Jesus is in all situations God who visited on the earth in a fashion of a man.

T

TMK Oct 8, 2016

PetriFB-

If you are going to accuse the good men and women here on the forum of heresy, perhaps it is best for you to move on.

The belief that Jesus was filled by the Holy Spirit is mainstream.

You can believe whatever you want, but to accuse others of heresy who hold to a traditional understanding is ridiculous in the extreme.

J

JFW Oct 8, 2016

Brother PetriFB,

May I ask why you categorize a different understanding of scripture as heresy, as that is quite an accusation?
There are (amongst believers) quite allot of differences in understanding which, as you know, have led to division and in some cases done damage to the body of Christ.
I'm not marginalizing your position, just asking you to reconsider your approach to this discussion as it may be more profitable to approach it from an angle where the person with a different understanding isn't immediately labeled and ultimately dismissed as a heretic...

That's not to say that there isn't heresies, there certainly are and we are called to rebuke them, tho always with a spirit of humility and with the intent to restore the deceived party.

(For me) When testing wether a thing is heretical, my first question is "does
the Bible clearly state the opposite without the need of interpretation?" Because it could be, and often is, that people come to differing conclusions while reading the same passage of scripture and that is a matter of interpretation.
For example; the Bible clearly and repeatedly states that Jesus is Lord. It says this implicitly and there can be no argument based on interpretation so if someone held the position that "Jesus isn't Lord" then that would definitively a heretical position.
As for the "Jesus is God, always was, always is, always will be" position, while most people I know hold to this position- the Bible doesn't implicitly say that..... so it's a matter of interpretation.
Also I'd like to hear your thoughts on why you believe the scriptures don't clearly and implicitly state that Jesus is God the same way it does Jesus is Lord?
It seems in most epistles, in the greeting as well as in the salutations there is a clear clear distinction being made between "God the Father and Jesus the Lord",... why do you think Holy Spirit directed the writers to make this distinction?

Thanks for your attention and patience dear brother:)

P

proudpapa Oct 9, 2016

Hi PetriFB ,

Luke 22:42 Jesus said : "Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."

I am not sure if I am understanding your points ? but how does versus such as the above fit into your understanding ?

C

Christinyou Oct 9, 2016

Think on the (FAITH) that Jesus had to accomplish all that the Father, Himself and the Holy Spirit, Jesus the Son of God to be able to do it.

No wonder we need the faith of Jesus Christ to accomplish anything for the Father.

Galatians 2:20-21 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Jesus had the Faith of the whole God Head, The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. There is nothing beyond this, the Faith of God. Wow, what is left? Nothing, it is all done in the Faith of Jesus Christ and because of; He that is birthed in me, I live by the faith of the Son of God. Satan hates this and wants to keep us away from this faith and lies to us saying we must have our own faith, and it is by your own faith that will accomplish things for God. "You will surely not die"

Even in the face of all Jesus put upon Himself at the Cross, just to make it possible for me? Me to be a son of our Father and brother in complete heirship to all that Jesus has given us by His Faith of His Father, which is Faith above and beyond of what we can even think.

Ephesians 1:19-23 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Praise God that this faith is not of myself, but the Faith of the Son of God by which I now live in the flesh looking forward to the upward calling of God In Christ Jesus our Lord. My faith can still fail, and I thank God no one can take me out of the arms of Jesus or the Fathers hands, but The Faith of Jesus Christ never did fail, so I pray that the Faith of the Son of God be given us without measure.

Just read Eph 1, over and over and over, which brings me to heavenly places in Him.

Phillip

T

TMK Oct 9, 2016

Luke 4:1 Then Jesus, ***being filled with the Holy Spirit***, returned from the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, (my emphasis)

D

dolfan Oct 10, 2016

I am having a very difficult time understanding the point of the OP. It almost seems like it is answering a question no one is asking. Has anyone -- here, at least -- believed that Jesus lacked any of His deity while He lived in His sinless and not yet glorified flesh? If so, please admit it or show us where someone has said as much. PetriFB you seem genuinely concerned about our submission to the truth of who Jesus is, but what I can't make up my mind on is if you think we aren't walking in the truth of Scripture's revelation of Him.

T

TMK Oct 10, 2016

I think the main bone of contention is that the OP argues that Jesus did not give up any of his aspects of deity during his earthly ministry. I agree that Jesus was fully God but that he emptied his divine characteristics (i.e. He was fully human) while on the earth.

The OP would argue that when Jesus did miracles he did them because he was God and God can do anything. I believe that Jesus did not "access" his deity to perform miracles. He relied on his relationship with the Father (to know what He wanted done) and acted through the power of the HS.

Further, I do not believe that Jesus was omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent during his time on earth. Those aspects of his divinity, while very true and real, we're not available to Him.

S

StirItUp Oct 10, 2016

Absolutely Todd,

To be a perfect savior of men Jesus had to become a man in every sense of the word, to be tempted as all men are, yet without sin.

He was born as a man, lived as a man, ministered as a man, died as a man and rose from the dead and ascended into heaven a glorified man.

Jesus is: " Our Man in Heaven"

Blessings,

J

JFW Oct 10, 2016

Amen! Amen! AMEN!

Between the two of you, my understanding has been well articulated and it's somewhat comforting to hear it from another brothers mouth :)

T

twayneb Oct 10, 2016

That is it Todd. The incarnation is Jesus condescending to our state in order that He might truly be our perfect high priest. He was in all points tempted like as we are. God cannot be tempted by evil. Yet Jesus was. I totally agree. He was obviously not omnipresent, nor was he omniscient or omnipotent while on earth. He was fully God in identity, yet he operated on earth as fully man, receiving His strength, power, and identity from the Father, through the Holy Spirit, just as we must do. This is why we can walk in absolute victory as well. He is our example. He is our victory.

I absolutely LOVE to study the incarnation. God is so good. Oh, how great is His love for us, that He would do what He did. He gave it all so we could have it all when we give it all.