The Judgemental Church

I had a dream here recently not to many months back. I won't go into to much detail as it was a rather long dream. But at one point in the dream the angel that took me through this time showed me a people, the angel called them the "Jesus" people and I was shown some things. In the course of this dream I meet a woman from this group of Jesus people, I was impressed to see how well groomed she was not only in her dress but also in her posture and the way she carried herself, she was however in a motorized wheel chair. She seemed to be the leader of this group of christians. I was introduced to her and listened intently to her speak, we dialogued for a time about several things but she could not get beyond a few things which the angel explained to me were reasons why she was crippled and wheel chair bound. She kept saying with pride that she had successfully prosecuted 10 s of thousands of people and put them away, in my head I felt like she meant jail or prison or something. There was several different topics that were covered and eventually I had to let her go her way with her following. I woke up from this very long dream, much to think about. What I heard from the Lord ,I believe, on just that small part of the dream was this. The Church has become judge and jury and takes more pleasure in condemning the guilty than it does in being the instrument of their deliverance. We have become socially irrelevant in our efforts to convince the wicked of something they already know about themselves. I was told to learn to walk in wisdom and instruct fellow believers to learn to do likewise, because Jesus wanted to raise up for Himself a people who with the giftings of God the Holy Spirit could become salt and light to this generation with real answers for the troubles of this time here and now.

I believe the Lord is about to raise up a people who walk in all His ways and do His righteousness with the power and authority of God in tangible results here and now. The Challenge:"IF""MY"PEOPLE" who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and "TURN" from their wicked way, than I will hear from Heaven forgive their sins and heal their land.

Jas 1:5
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.Jas 3:17
But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

by dohzman
The Church has become judge and jury and takes more pleasure in condemning the guilty than it does in being the instrument of their deliverance.

God bless,
Lisa

Ephesians 4:17-19 So I tell you this, and testify to it in the Lord: You must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. They are darkened in their understanding and alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardness of their hearts. Having lost all sense of shame, they have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity, with a craving for more.

Jude 1:4

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God's marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Jeremiah 23

20"The anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
In the last days you will clearly understand it.

21"I did not send these prophets,
But they ran.
I did not speak to them,
But they prophesied.

22"But if they had stood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.

23"Am I a God who is near,” declares the LORD,
"And not a God far off?

24"Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the LORD.
"Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the LORD.

25"I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy falsely in My name, saying, ‘I had a dream, I had a dream!’ 26"How long? Is there anything in the hearts of the prophets who prophesy falsehood, even these prophets of the deception of their own heart, 27who intend to make My people forget My name by their dreams which they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot My name because of Baal? 28"The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?” declares the LORD. 29"Is not My word like fire?” declares the LORD, "and like a hammer which shatters a rock? 30"Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, "who steal My words from each other. 31"Behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, "who use their tongues and declare, ‘The Lord declares.’ 32"Behold, I am against those who have prophesied false dreams,” declares the LORD, "and related them and led My people astray by their falsehoods and reckless boasting; yet I did not send them or command them, nor do they furnish this people the slightest benefit,” declares the LORD.

In my dream the judgemental church had all the scriptures down pat, just like I see here...the thing they lacked was the power of God to effect change in society by in large and in the life of individuals. They were judgemental and could justify their lack of actionable unconditional love toward their fellow man based on scriptural proof texts. I was reminded that while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly and if we were to be like or follow after Him in like manner we would need to learn to do like wise. Without faith it is impossible to please God/and faith work(eth) by love. For good or for bad there are two churches, one is Organic and one is Organized. In another thread there was an article with a lot of words written about what legalism is or is not, but here is the conclusion of the whole matter, legalism is the imposing of a standard on others "without" the power to give them the necessary resources to do or live up to that standard. That is where the judgemental church is, they lack power because they basically do not have any real love in their heart toward mankind. They sit with pride and know not that in all that they think they are they are wholly ineffective and all of heaven can see it let alone unsaved mankind, they are no longer salt and light, just ineffective in day to day life and of little value when it comes to things eternal.

Well then...dream on!

Jesus...Love incarnate did not succeed in turning the masses to Him.

Maybe there are some like yourself, and in some of the others' dreams, that can love more than Jesus to bring in the multitudes.

You keep dreaming...while I and others will keep praying and proclaiming the Truth as it is in Jesus.

Bless the Lord!

So let me see if I have this right. I gave something that was a call to repentance. It was not meant for you personally but You called me false, lining up with what I saw exactly. What ever it was , it sparked something personal in you, so I have to figure you are that lady in the dream, you are the one with some following you personally. That is unfortunate if that is the case because what was delivered to me in the concluding of that segment was the group walking away and believing that for their much praying they were being heard and their actions and gospel was only served to condemn others in things they themselves did not understand, when God did not do things in a neat little box the way they believed He should. That group was not culturally relevant and had absolutely no effect on the world around them as far as eternity was concerned. They were prim and proper and they prayed much and thought for all their praying they were heard. The message concludes Jas 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. The warning was this as that heavenly messenger allowed me to understand, they believed they were doing God a service and their very prayers were not being heard and were having no effect. They were content to be a small band when they could have become so much more.

Thank you for sharing!
I was encouraged by the exercising of your gift.

Blessings

Did you test your dream against the scriptures as why should God contradict himself

1 Corinthians 6

Settle Lawsuits among Believers

1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

7Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Our Bodies are Members of Christ

12All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

The Body is a Temple of the Holy Spirit

(Romans 12:1-8; 1 Corinthians 3:16-18)

18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

1 Thess 5
12But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction, 13and that you esteem them very highly in love because of their work. Live in peace with one another. 14We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone. 15See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people. 16Rejoice always; 17pray without ceasing; 18in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus. 19Do not quench the Spirit; 20do not despise prophetic utterances. 21But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good; 22abstain from every form of evil.

It says in the passage that we should be judging angels yet are the words of paul the apostle void.

In the passage in Thessalonian it says test all things, that is a commandment.

2 Thess 2
The Man of Sin

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Stand Firm

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

The bible states we should have a love of the truth and the holy spirit is a spirit of truth. If someone has a dream or anything that goes specifically against the gospel whether it is the spiritual gifts, how do we know that they are the spiritual gifts sent from the holy spirit and not a demon pretending we need the bible to discern.

2 Corinthians 11:14
King James Bible
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

If satan can be transformed into an angel of light, we should be judge things, we should test things by the scriptures as it says it says because they did not recieve the love of the truth god gave them over to a strong delusion.

Why

JudeKing James Version (KJV)

1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:

23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Matthew 1:20
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 2:12
And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Matthew 2:13
And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:19
But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,

Matthew 2:22
But when he heard that Archelaus did reign in Judaea in the room of his father Herod, he was afraid to go thither: notwithstanding, being warned of God in a dream, he turned aside into the parts of Galilee:

Matthew 27:19
When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Jude 1:8
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Where in the bible does it says dreams are a spiritual gift

Hi Dominic,

I think you may have misunderstood the original post. The brother was not saying that Christians should judge other people but rather that they should have a full bodied authentic witness and heart of love for the lost.

The woman in the wheelchair was the one who had done all the judging. The angel in the dream had brought the brother to see her to learn what not to do.

Dreams are not a spiritual gift per se. They are a sign of the New Covenant in Joel 2:28 as a testimony of the Spirit. Job 33:14-16 talks about how God uses dreams to warn men of their sin so that they can repent. I agree that there are false dreams by which false prophets speak like what's found in Jeremiah 23.

Dominic-
If you do not believe that God can speak to you in a dream, that is your business and no one else's.

If someone makes a dream public, then it is everyone's business to judge whether it be of God or not, by the Word of God.

Especially when the claim is made, that it was an indictment upon the church of God. And that is precisely the claim.

And then it becomes more personal when the poster states, "you are the lady", to another poster who posts the Scriptures in response.

BTW - I am no lady!

Maybe if this dreamer had lay down for a nap he'd have had another dream and would have been shown I was no lady. .

I believe that God can speak through dreams I was just saying is there any biblical basis for it ,

From my original reading of the post I thought it had the exact thing to do with judgement

It is hard to justify things when we know that the bible says that there will be a church that will be apostate

The Great Apostasy

2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ[a] had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He[d] who now restrains will do so until He[e] is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Stand Fast

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

When we have the written word of God to know how things turn out

Deutronomy 13
Punishment of Apostates

13 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’””which you have not known””‘and let us serve them,’ 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. 5 But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst.

We should always test a prophecy or dream whether it comes to pass.

Why should God contradict himself as if the word of God says something and someone says something that contradicts it, then I know what that person says is not the word of God.

First off, satan nevers calls the church to repentance with the promise of liberty, in the dream the woman represented church leadership, tough for the male ego I know, the message she was so proud of was that of bringing condemnation and used the Word of God to do so, The Word of God says the Law of the Lord is perfect converting the soul, there should be something liberating where the Word of God is given, a quickening spirit, life, Jesus said ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. The dialogue among other people groups was not an indictment but a warning and a call for the church "generic" to become re-engaged in society by repenting praying, seeking God s face asking for wisdom and becoming culturally relevant to a very messed up "present" church mind set that is very prevalent in the US right now among a great many evangelicals. I also took it to heart and sat on it for several months because I was shown a great many things in the course of that dream.

The interpretation of a dream can be very difficult at times as I have mentioned before on a dream I had in 06 about Hiliary Clinton and her being rejected from being president, I had so many different scenarios played out in my head when in fact it was a literal interpretation that as we know happened. The dream at this part of it was simply showing where much of the church was and why they were not seeing a move of God in the salvation of the people they were supposed to be salt and light for, in essence the church had lost its power "with"God in our present culture because of sin, a pointing of the finger, a pride that made us more like judge and jury than witnesses of the grace of God in Christ Jesus.

On a personal note, I see so many very educated and knowledgeable people saying and writing so much, and I do not like to use a multitude of words so when I write something, it really is extremely scaled down, if anyone needs clarification, just ask, I will be more than happy to explain further.

Dom wrote: "I believe that God can speak through dreams I was just saying is there any biblical basis for it"

Hey Dominic- I am not sure I understand your question, since you know there are many many instances of God speaking to people in dreams in the Bible.

What I just realized is that I do not believe there is a single instance in scripture of satan speaking to someone in a dream, at least that I can recall offhand.

A very heart felt thank you. God Bless bro. dmiller