Manipulation in the Church and on the Forum

A bit provocative I know, but it's an issue I want to raise and I see it as a big problem in the church generally and we are seeing it quite regularly here on the forum.

What I am talking about is when ever a questionable subject comes up for discussion like the current 'head covering' one there is a putting down of one side of the discussion by the other by manipulative means. This takes the form of suggesting that there is only one true position that is valid and any other understanding that disagrees is rebellion, unspiritual, flesh, stumbling weaker vessels, etc, etc... That is manipulation and tries to shut down any other voice. We have seen this in regard to many subjects, such as alcohol, pre-millennialism, politics, sabbath keeping and of course head covering, which are obviously subjects of difference in the body of Christ (so we are not talking about foundation essentials here).

Surely in the body of Christ (and particularly a public forum) we should be able to discuss such things openly without putting down the other person in order to shut them down by such manipulation? However the sad truth is that so many churches are stuck in their particular doctrinal trench and will not entertain for a minute hearing an alternative point or considering that they may not have it all right. Only in openness to express our understanding will we all grow.

This is an open forum and if folk post on here questions or thoughts they should expect (even welcome) a variety of opinions and response. Otherwise why post here? Just keep your views to yourself and those who agree with you. Do we think we will change people to our point of view, if so we are probably naïve. It very rarely happens on such a platform as this.

The sad issue for me is not around the actual subject, but the lack of openness to hear the other person's understanding and reasoning.

Are all teachers?

We know what God's answer to that question is.

If all are not teachers, then many are taking it upon themselves to try and be so.

But, just as if my hand were to attempt to do what my foot does, or my ear to try and do what my nose does, my body would be a mess.

But the merry-go-round is not stopping!

And all the children are rushing to get on board. The seats are all occupied, so the children are screaming and shoving.

Teaching is a gift! It is also a calling.

Go to now!

I hear you Savannah, and as always, you have put it across in a very entertaining manner :)

I do feel, though, that sharing and discussing on a forum like this does not require a specific gifting necessarily, except for the imperative gift of the Holy Spirit.

"For you ALL have an anointing from the Holy One and know all things"

" Overseers should be able to teach"

"...by now you should all be teachers..."

Brother Dave, My approach here is to just read the threads I feel lead to read, I stay miles away from those that I don't understand, or that are not beneficial to my daily walk with the Lord. I use to come here and get involved in most all the threads, even the ones that did not minister to me, on some of these threads I felt like a 1st grader reading the instructions on how to build a space ship. When you are totally lead by God, he will not bring you even close to the things he knows you have not matured enough to understand, or, are not beneficial to your "now" daily walk with him. I personally think a lot of threads here, are started by some to puff up, their knowledge of the word, who cares how much of the word anyone knows, question is, how well do you know God?

My attitude is, if you're really called by "God" to teach, I don't think he is going to have you try and do your teaching among 10 or so other teachers as we seem to have here.If you're really called to teach, get out from behind the keyboard and get out yonder in the world and teach some of the folks that have never heard of God, or the ones that want to know his word better. Get away from Google and the computer, pick up your sword and get out there and preach from the word of God, without Google you might even discover that you really don't know everything, and that you might even be teachable. :-)

sherri2...I feel quite responsible for the contention, and Im so very sorry. Im not sorry for the convictions the Lord puts on my heart, but Im sorry that this has caused strife. I sincerely love you all in Jesus and never want this to happen again.

Dear Sister, You don't need forgiveness on this as Bill has said you have not caused any of the strife(and believe me this was small compared to others). I think you expressed yourself very well and fairly. The strife comes from those who want to dictate to others about being wrong. You certainly did not do that.

Please do not think anything I wrote was directed to you. When a topic starts and others post opinions and then these are responded to as well as general points to the wider church. That was certainly my intent and I think others as well.

Online forums (even Christian ones) can get quite heated at times and what is typed in one spirit can easily be received as coming from another spirit.

There are just certain topics that are 'hot potatoes' and this happens to be one of them.

As an aside, I occasionally post on a vegetable growing forum for advise, help etc. You never see any contention or real strife there! However vegetable growing doctrines are not comparable with the doctrines of God!:) Which I guess is why we rightly can all get so much more passionate about matters of eternity.

Be Blessed.

This is an open forum and if folk post on here questions or thoughts they should expect (even welcome) a variety of opinions and response. Otherwise why post here? Just keep your views to yourself and those who agree with you. Do we think we will change people to our point of view, if so we are probably naïve. It very rarely happens on such a platform as this.

I do not believe a christian forum with moderators who have authority is similar to any other open forum. This is were the problem lies. In the fundamental understanding of this forum. If the moderators does not want me to post on some subject, I will immediately obey. If I find them unjust then I will quit but not sit and rebel against them like it is done in any public forum. The same applies to a Church as well, never sit in a church trying to rebel against authority.

I think the important point to note is, teachability, which I feel is lacking in most of the posters. Most posters here do not come with a teachable spirit. They come here to put their own agenda and thoughts above others. For example in the head covering discussions, I have posted my opinion and am done with it, I am willing to answer any sinciere question raised on my views with scripture as authority. But mocking questions like how much should a women cover etc have no place in a Godly forum. I do not believe anyone with spirit of Christ will ask such mocking question. Lets think logically, even the asker knows it is a mocking question. It is not a question raised with an expectation of answer. What kind of answer will be acceptable?

Herod asked many mocking questions to Jesus and Jesus responded none of them. So the best answer to such Herodians is not answering them.

Dave and Sreeram, two wonderful posts! they really Blessed me, thank you!

Very Good Topic.

This subject is what makes it hard to hear from the Lord, other men trying to impose there own convictions on other mens conscience.

So we find ourselves in a constant struggle of trying to determine which of our convictions are true convictions from the Lord and which ones are manipulations of man.

proudpapa.....So we find ourselves in a constant struggle of trying to determine which of our convictions are true convictions from the Lord and which ones are manipulations of man.

A few years ago, I told someone about SermonIndex. I thought that this would be something that would have greatly blessed this person. After all, I feel immensely blessed by the treasure of messages contained here as well as my "iron-sharpens-iron" interaction with other believers from other places around the earth.

Now, I've told quite a few people about SermonIndex before and some have even joined the website or, at least, downloaded some of the message. However, this particular individual had mentioned a desire to get more "meat" from the Word of God that seemed to be missing in many local churches.

This person's words immediately reminded me of one of my favorite messages by David Wilkerson. In HOLY GROUND, David Wilkerson mentions having spoken with Leonard Ravenhill about so many youth who are hungry for the meat but only finding the chaff when it comes to lessons from teachers of God's Word. It motivated them to start a magazine called "Refiner's Fire." My friend's passionate hunger for more of Jesus made me realize that SermonIndex is sort of a new way of helping alleviate the need that David Wilkerson and Leonard Ravenhill mentioned.

So, I told my friend about SermonIndex. A few months later, I ran into that friend again. I had no idea if that person had visited the website, downloaded sermons, signed up as a member or participated in forum discussions. So, I asked my friend about it.

My friend admitted that he had indeed visited the website. He had listened to some of the "top" sermons and enjoyed them. He even mentioned that he read through many of the forum topics. After all, he was eager to hear things from the perspective of others.

That friend told me that he was "discouraged" by this website. I was a bit surprised. I thought that he might have seen one of the infamous debates that often turn into back-and-forth arguments. However, he said that he was looking through the topics and somehow came to the conclusion that this website adhered to a very specific doctrinal creed.

I explained that there are many different types of believers who frequent the website and that the messages available here are from believers of diverse denominational and theological views. However, he said that he had assumed that the SermonIndex website promoted particular doctrinal views because they were prominently appeared on the forum over the various times that he visited. He mentioned a few of the topics that he was referring to and, yes, they are things that have often been presented and debated here by certain believers over and over again.

I explained that these discussions like those often come in "waves" (i.e., someone brings up the "rapture," "head coverings," etc. and within a few days there are several simultaneous threads on the topic), but that there are people here who see those issues from different perspectives and experiences. Still, he noticed the degree by which some topics are divisive and how people can become "agitated" by wanting to "prove" their perspective. He said that it was something of a "turn off."

He said that he would come back and visit, but I haven't had the opportunity to hang out with him since then. He finished grad school and moved elsewhere. His words did make me think.

I have noticed that much of the most divisive issues is just as Greg mentioned: "An unwillingness to learn and possibly take something good from the other position." Instead, it seems like a brother or sister in the Lord mentions their perspective and then feel overwhelmed by voices of dissent that seem to attack the position and subtly question how any truly spiritual person can arrive to such a position. This seems to lead to individuals feeling a need to defend themselves (or their position) for ever having believed as such.

Now, I know that this isn't always the case, but it is something that I've noticed before (and something that he noticed very quickly). People are quick to stake out what "God revealed" to them in the form of a doctrinal stand. I remember something that brother Paul Washer said at one of a Revival Conference about not trusting a young man with his daughter because he doesn't even trust himself. I think that the same thing can be true of doctrines -- especially controversial doctrines that are probably "non-essential" when it comes to salvation. Should we be so adamantly certain of what we believe or have studied and learned (in terms of non-essential issues) that we cannot possibly be wrong?

The last thing that my friend had said stung the most. He said that many of the things argued here are "confusing." I was surprised by his choice of the word "confusing" because he was earning a post-graduate science degree at a top university. When I asked him what he meant, he replied that the doctrines debated and argued about just seemed too complicated "for the simple Gospel of Jesus Christ."

I haven't read through all of the posts here, but this simply came back to my mind after having read a few. Here's a link to David Wilkerson's message HOLY GROUND. It is a deeply moving message -- especially for believers interested in ministry.

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=336

Markus,

Yes I agree with your overall point. However the responses you quoted I would not see as particularly offensive. I laughed at the bald wig joke, but maybe that's because I am a tad bald myself! The ones I found offensive were the ones in support of head coverings. I could list them all, but in general it was the demeaning and putting down of people who do not see it as they do as well as assuming that obedience means accepting their custom.

So this shows us the real issue....we (that's an inclusive 'we') only see an offense when it goes against our particular belief. We do not consider that strong condemnation of others on matters on conscience is wrong if it is our personal conviction. It is just considered OK to put the other person right, because ' I'm defending truth' or 'God's command'. I see this all the time and it is very common in the church. Worst of all I often see it myself....God help us to grow up.

Dave, something deeper is going on here, not anything I would call bad, but have your ever wondered why only about 10 regulars start threads and are the only one's that post on these threads? I don't know how many members we have here, but my guess is lots, so what is keeping other members from starting threads, or even posting on the 10 regulars threads? I mean some of these threads have over 1200 views. It's either they've read enough of the 10 regulars threads and not dare get involved in those threads, or these threads are just to repetitious and confusing, or maybe their afraid of starting their own, thinking they will end up in a heated debate. I don't know why more folks don't participate in the forums, could be they're just listening to God, and he's telling them to stay far away from the forums.

Maybe the 10 regulars are just having a private Bible study. :-)

Just for the record, most know me here I'm not picking on anyone, I'm just curious to why there's not more participation in the forums.