But if any man seem to be contentious...

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rbanks Dec 7, 2016

1 Corinthians 11:16 (KJV)
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

if any man seem to be contentious””The Corinthians were apparently fond of arguing, each claiming to have the last word or the ultimate answer (8:1).

we””the apostles. have no such custom””as that of women praying uncovered. neither the churches of God””Paul closed his argument by appealing to the universal custom of the churches.

While custom does not determine correct doctrine (since doctrine has been authoritatively revealed in Scripture), custom is a helpful guide in practical questions of what is proper or appropriate.

This phrase, then, supports the conclusion that the specific instructions regarding veils, etc., depend on cultural expectations and would not always apply. Paul's teaching, however, is based on underlying principles that should always be observed.

While I do believe there are sincere christians on both sides of the issue at hand who must follow their own conscience on how they are convinced that they understand it.

I do not believe that we should make it an issue at the expense of destroying Christian unity of the brethren in the body of Christ.

Romans 14:4-5
4 Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Blessings to everyone!

L

Lysa Dec 7, 2016

But just so you know, some use the "one" version that doesn't say or mean that!! Here's the BibleHub of every version that supports KJV...
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/11-16.htm

But any way, I agree with that but also that that scripture can include anything that man would dictate as a law over anyone and thereby causing an argument (not just head coverings brother), "we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." And leave it there.

But that's just me and I will leave it there!!
God bless,
Lisa

G

ginnyrose Dec 26, 2016

It is totally out of character for any Biblical writer to go to great lengths to teach a principle and application and then end up saying it is not all that important - just let local custom dictate your decision on this issue.

Weird hermeneutics, I say.

Sandra

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proudpapa Dec 27, 2016

"we have no such custom, neither the churches of God."v 16

No such custom that men can not : "have long hair" v 14

No such custom that woman have to : "have long hair" v 15

Paul has simply pointed out that the headship order can be observed symbolically in nature through the fact that naturally woman tend to have long hair and men shorter hair .
Which is why Paul starts v 14 : " Doth not even nature itself teach you"

clarity

Add :

Tradition has misread 1 Cor 11, They have read it that Paul was teaching that woman should symbolically mimic the Spiritual headship order by the use of head apparel for woman.

By reading it this way : Pauls entire point has been lost.

And Church history seems to me to have become a record of a divisive hierarchical systems instead of the Biblical unified body paradigm fitly joined together with Christ as the Head, as what we read about in Scripture

Paul was not adding another law to Christianity, he was simply pointing out that nature itself teaches symbolicly the headship order

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

I do see the Apostle Paul appealing to Biblical doctrine and not custom on this:

1 Corinthians 11:2-3New International Version (NIV)

On Covering the Head in Worship
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you. 3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man,[a] and the head of Christ is God.

The original post makes some wonderful points. This is not an issue that we judge or ever divide over, but because of the appeal to Scriptural doctrine of headship the Apostle gives us the importance of the symbol.

Paul was passing on Biblical New Covenant traditions (symbols) in the church and not just customs that were local to certain believers or a time period.

P

proudpapa Dec 27, 2016

"2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."

Paul does not say : Ordinances as I am fixing to deliver to you.
He says : "as I delivered them to you."
That connects to what he has previously been speaking about through out 1 Cor.

The ordinances that where delivered to the Church and was to be passed down was this :

Acts 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Acts 15: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:

The context leading up to the 11th chapter of 1 Cor. has been Paul addressing some of these ordinances with more detail :

abstain from meats offered to idols 1 Cor 10 : 19 - 33
1 Cor 8 : 1-13

fornication : 1 cor 10:8, 1 cor. 7, 1 cor 6:18, 1 cor 5

clarity

U

UntoBabes Dec 27, 2016

Have you ever thought that the word custom may be referring to contentions. In other words, he would be saying: If someone wants to be disputatious or contentious about these teachings, we do not tolerate such practice, or moral habit ( referring to contentions) in the churches of God.
I say that because i grew up to reading the Bible in another language( other than English) and that is how i always understood this verse to mean.

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

I believe Paul is actually saying we do not tolerate those who have a contentious, divisive spirit. This is in keeping with much of his teaching elsewhere on this matter. In other word Paul is saying that anyone who wishes to be contentious and divisive over these aforementioned matters...STOP...we won't tolerate that spirit here.

Unfortunately his plea fell on deaf ears and here we are 2000 years later still arguing and being contentious over head coverings and everything else.

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

Unfortunately his plea fell on deaf ears and here we are 2000 years later still arguing and being contentious over head coverings and everything else.

Brother,

Unfortunately most biblical commentators that are protestant and also most if not all Churches throughout Church history were then wrong? The majority of believers have practiced a literal interpreation of this scripture which is opposite then what you are saying.

I wonder if in our modern day evangelical church we can be wrong on a few points? I heard a charismatic speaker says he was more anointed in the Apostle Paul and have heard evangelical believers state we have the best Church in the history of the Church. I shuddered when I heard these comments.

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

brother Greg,
I am not commenting at all on the practice of head coverings and what percentage of churches or denominations have practiced this in its varying forms over the centuries.

All I am saying is the the CONTENTIOUS arguing over this is still going on 2000 years later. And thats not the only thing either. Christians just love to argue. They will argue over the drop of a hat, over the length of a skirt and the color of their hymnals. They argue over every jot and tittle it seems and when they are done with one thing, up pops another and on and on they drone.

Why would any sinner want to take part in any such religion as this? Amongst other things it is the foul stench of religious trappings and contention that keep many from coming nearer to the gates of the Kingdom of our loving Savior.

U

UntoBabes Dec 27, 2016

I believe a contentious person here would be in reference to someone who, having heard the apostle give a thorough argument for the headcover, would continue to oppose its practice.

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

"having heard the apostle give a thorough argument for the headcover, would continue to oppose its practice. "

I do not oppose its practice in the slightest, did you think that I did sister?

U

UntoBabes Dec 27, 2016

I am sorry, i am not referring to anyone in this forum. I do not know what your convictions are. Please do not take it personally. I am referring to however the apostle has in mind
in the text.

sermonindex Dec 27, 2016

"I am sorry, i am not referring to anyone in this forum. I do not know what your convictions are. Please do not take it personally. I am referring to however the apostle has in mind in the text."

I have no convictions about this except I wish those with an agenda would be quiet because it continually creates strife. Sermon Index is not a church last time I checked so why not let this be an issue for each local church to sort out? What is to be gained by continually rehashing these issues time and time again?

Those are my convictions:-)

U

UntoBabes Dec 28, 2016

Well, I personally soldemn get involved in such arguments but that is only because I believe there are more important issues out there to be concerned with and my time does not allow me to be involved in it all. But I would not consider someone who thinks this issue is important someone with an agenda, nor do I think this issue to be up to individual churches to decide. If it is a command, then it is meant for all believers. And if Paul himself thought it to be important to spend a whole chapter on, then who are we to argue with the Holy Spirit who inspired him. Having said that, I would never judge somebody for practicing or not practicing this command, because I myself did not see it till later in my Christian walk.

sermonindex Dec 28, 2016

Getting every church to comply with this and not just at the local level would be an interesting task. I picture a vast worldwide hierarchical church network handing down decrees and demanding adherence to certain commands and practices...or else!

I think the reason that this is so contentious is because it is regarded by many to be a command from God. And if a command from God is disobeyed then there is no other way to put it except that those who are disobeying are living in perpetual rebellion and sinning against God.

That is a very serious thing for a believer to be doing and there are very serious consequences.

sermonindex Dec 28, 2016

Well since these head covering threads keep popping up on SI over and over again, I would say it is safe to assume there is an agenda here on this site.

U

UntoBabes Dec 28, 2016

I think there is a bit of a logical fallacy in what you're saying. You are assuming that having a universal standard of moral absolutes for all christ followers will create higherarchy, but that is not the case. Jesus never meant that his commands be coerced, neither are we to live them only when we feel like it . It is neither nor. They are to be taken seriously yet obeyed willingly . The Holy Spirit alone is the convicting agent.

sermonindex Dec 28, 2016

"You are assuming that having a universal standard of moral absolutes for all christ followers will create higherarchy, but that is not the case. Jesus never meant that his commands be coerced, neither are we to live them only when we feel like it . It is neither nor. They are to be taken seriously yet obeyed willingly . The Holy Spirit alone is the convicting agent."

I am not assuming that at all because I am not putting head coverings into the column of moral absolutes. If I did then a great deal of my friends and family members are on their way to hell.

U

UntoBabes Dec 28, 2016

I don't think we need to be afraid of having an agenda. When I go witness to somebody, I definitely have an agenda in mind. My agenda is that they would come to see the truth of Christianity. But if SI has some guilines against agendas, then people need to respect that. Here is how you can tell, if the same person keeps posting the same thing over and over, then you may assume they have an agenda. But if a certain topic gets posted by different people, you really have no ground for your suspicion, because maybe the Holy Spirit is doing some convicting.