sermonindex
Jan 1, 2017
Many people blame sin on our adamic nature. Is there another way to explain why people would do, think, and feel bad things?
Many people blame sin on our adamic nature. Is there another way to explain why people would do, think, and feel bad things?
Yes- because they want to.
I think the Adam nature is not just sin but its also rebellion in its heart for God... for God's ways. It has as its nature to go against God.
And God in his mercy saw that and still sent Jesus to die for us.
David.
The failure to resist temptation is proof to many believers that becoming a "new creature in Christ” has not yet fully taken affect. The following quote from the Words of Life website sums up the internal conflict experienced by so many believers. "All who have been born again possess the sinful nature, which they inherited from Adam, and the divine nature, which they received when they were born again.” In other words, the article says, every believer has two natures, often at war with each other. This may not help solve the temptation problem, but I guess it may help relieve some guilt.
But, what if there is another explanation for that internal conflict? What if God understands our sufferings differently? Could it be possible that He wants to give us His understanding yet we are so set on our own understanding that we reject His before we even know what it is? Could it be possible that God looks at our trials in a way totally different from the way we think?
The Apostle Paul said, "knowing this, that 'our old self' was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin.” (Roman 6:6, New American Standard Bible) What many call "the adamic” nature is what Paul called 'our old self'.
A primary theme of the New Testament is the death of the old self, the old creation, with Christ as well as our resurrection into His new life. Yet, our experiences often tell us that is not possible, except in a theoretical or spiritual sense. So, what should we do? Does God want us to live in this state of confusion?
The fact is, God does not play games with words. He has no falsehood or deceit; He cannot lie (Titus 1:2). Thus, there must be another reason for the conflict which seems like two natures warring within us.
This is a critical issue. The meaning of death is not to cease existing but to be divided or separated from life or something we hold dear. (One meaning of the Devil is the divider, the separator). When people believe that they are two different people at the same time, i.e. still the old man yet also a new creature, their minds and thoughts are split. Paul called it pulled apart, having a divided attention. James called it double-minded. The author of Psalm 119 called it vain thoughts, doubled-mindedness, divided loyalties. This divided disposition makes it impossible to trust the Lord with the whole heart because our beliefs are split in multiple, contradictory directions.
When someone cannot focus on the truth because they also believe something that is not true the result is a frustratingly inconsistent life. Every human being suffers with some inconsistent beliefs. We all are sure that all of our precious beliefs are unquestionably true, yet according to the Apostle John, some of them are wrong. The, often unrealized, embracing of wrong beliefs is the source of our inconsistencies in life. I thank God for the Holy Spirit. He is diligently, quietly, and gently working to cause us to realize His truth and repent (change our minds) once we realize that we have believed something that is not true.
We All Died With Christ
Is a person included in the crucifixion of Jesus at the moment when he believes? Does it become true for her that "I have been crucified with Christ" only if she has faith in Him? It isn't believing that makes it real. Mankind's co-crucifixion with Jesus on the cross is a reality whether we believe it or not. Here's how Watchman Nee said it:
It is the 'inclusive' death of the Lord which puts me in a position to identify myself, not that I identify myself in order to be included. It is God's inclusion of me in Christ that matters." (Watchman Nee, The Normal Christian Life, p. 46).
Nee points out that I'm not included because I believe it. I believe it because I am included and that is what matters!
Faith doesn't make it happen that we died with Jesus and that the old Adamic man was destroyed. It happened! It is a historical fact that we all died with Him. That's true whether we have faith or not.
How many ways can it be said???
The New American Standard Version says, "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died."
The New International Version says, "For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died."
The Bible In Basic English says, "For it is the love of Christ which is moving us; because we are of the opinion that if one was put to death for all, then all have undergone death."
The New King James Version says, "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died."
Young's Literal Translation says, "For the love of the Christ doth constrain us, having judged thus: that if one for all died, then the whole died."
Can it be clearer than this? Did Jesus die for all or not? Did Jesus die for all but only some died with Him? This verse (among others) shows that everybody for whom Jesus died died with Him. The gospel of grace that the human race needs to hear is that Jesus Christ has dealt with Adam's sin in The Garden and has now given us new life!
It's true! We have died with Christ and have been raised to walk in newness of life - His life. That is the gospel we proclaim to those still trapped in their own darkness. That is the gospel that will cause people to come alive to the truth of the finished work of the cross. That is the gospel that will cause those who are blind to finally see. That is the gospel that will cause those who are lost to finally know they have been found. That is the gospel that brings salvation to a person in a way that he/she will be forever transformed.
That is the gospel we need to proclaim. Let us join together and affirm that, by God's grace, we will never again declare a potential gospel but instead we will proclaim the finished work of Jesus Christ for every person. There is power in the preaching of the gospel. When unbelievers hear the truth about the cross, God's Holy Spirit will bring many to faith in Christ.
Our Death With Christ A Historic Fact - Watchman Nee
Romans 6:1-11 is the passage before us now. In these verses it is made clear that the death of the Lord Jesus is representative and inclusive. In His death we all died. None of us can progress spiritually without seeing this. Just as we cannot have justification if we have not seen Him bearing our sins on the Cross, so we cannot have sanctification if we have not seen Him bearing us on the Cross. Not only have our sins been laid on Him but we ourselves have been put into Him.
How did you receive forgiveness? You realized that the Lord Jesus died as your Substitute and bore your sins upon Himself, and that His Blood was shed to cleanse away your defilement. When you saw your sins all taken away on the Cross what did you do? Did you say, 'Lord Jesus, please come and die for my sins'? No, you did not pray at all; you only thanked the Lord You did not beseech Him to come and die for you, for you realized that He had already done it.
But what is true of your forgiveness is also true of your deliverance. The work is done. There is no need to pray but only to praise. God has put us all in Christ, so that when Christ was crucified we were crucified also. Thus there is no need to pray: 'I am a very wicked person; Lord, please crucify me'. That is all wrong. You did not pray about your sins; why pray now about yourself? Your sins were dealt with by His Blood, and you were dealt with by His Cross. It is an accomplished fact. All that is left for you to do is to praise the Lord that when Christ died you died also; you died in Him. Praise Him for it and live in the light of it. "Then believed they his words: they sang his praise" (Psalm 106:12). Do you believe in the death of Christ? Of course you do. Well, the same Scripture that says He died for us says also that we died with Him. Look at it again: "Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). That is the first statement, and that is clear enough; but is this any less clear? "Our old man was crucified with him" (Romans 6:6). "We died with Christ" (Romans 6:8).
When are we crucified with Him? What is the date of our old man's crucifixion? Is it tomorrow? Yesterday? Today? In order to answer this it may help us if for a moment I turn Paul's statement round and say, 'Christ was crucified with (i.e. at the same time as) our old man'. Some of you came here in twos. You traveled to this place together. You might say, My friend came here with me', but you might just as truly say, 'I came here with my friend'. Had one of you come three days ago and the other only today you could not possibly say that; but having come together you can make either statement with equal truth, because both are statements of fact. So also in historic fact we can say, reverently but with equal accuracy, 'I was crucified when Christ was crucified' or 'Christ was crucified when I was crucified', for they are not two historical events, but one. My crucifixion was "with him". 3 Has Christ been crucified? Then can I be otherwise? And if He was crucified nearly two thousand years ago, and I with Him, can my crucifixion be said to take place tomorrow? Can His be past and mine be present or future? Praise the Lord, when He died in my stead, but He bore me with Him to the Cross, so that when He died I died. And if I believe in the death of the Lord Jesus, then I can believe in my own death just as surely as I believe in His.
Why do you believe that the Lord Jesus died? What is your ground for that belief? Is it that you feel He has died? No, you have never felt it. You believe it because the Word of God tells you so. When the Lord was crucified, two thieves were crucified at the same time. You do not doubt that they were crucified with Him, either, because the Scripture says so quite plainly.
You believe in the death of the Lord Jesus and you believe in the death of the thieves with Him. Now what about your own death? Your crucifixion is more intimate than theirs. They were crucified at the same time as the Lord but on different crosses, whereas you were crucified on the self same cross as He, for you were in Him when He died. How can you know? You can know for the one sufficient reason that God has said so. It does not depend on your feelings. If you feel that Christ has died, He has died; and if you do not feel that he died, He has died. If you feel that you have died, you have died; and if you do not feel that you have died, you have nevertheless just as surely died. These are Divine facts. That Christ has died is a fact, that the two thieves have died is a fact, and that you have died is a fact also. Let me tell you, You have died! You are done with! You are ruled out! The self you loathe is on the Cross in Christ. And "he that is dead is freed from sin" (Romans 6:7, A.V.). This is the Gospel for Christians.
From The Normal Christian Life - Watchman Nee
It is true that every believer has been crucified with Christ, but not every believer is believing that fact and is appropriating it in their life. The Holy Spirit can only work to make our death with Christ a reality by our faith in the fact that it has been done. We must know that we have been crucified with Christ, and then reckon ourselves to be dead to sin but alive unto God. The cross is indeed a finished work, but the believer has to make a conscious choice to either walk in the spirit or to live after the flesh. There is total victory for the believer over sin, but the Christian's part is to consecrate his body unto God, presenting it as a living sacrifice.
by AbideinHim
It is true that every believer has been crucified with Christ, but not every believer is believing that fact and is appropriating it in their life. The Holy Spirit can only work to make our death with Christ a reality by our faith in the fact that it has been done. We must know that we have been crucified with Christ, and then reckon ourselves to be dead to sin but alive unto God. The cross is indeed a finished work, but the believer has to make a conscious choice to either walk in the spirit or to live after the flesh. There is total victory for the believer over sin, but the Christian's part is to consecrate his body unto God, presenting it as a living sacrifice.
I agree with what Tuc wrote as well as Mike.
For the believer the death with Christ is a fact and must be reckoned so. Reckon is an accounting term, just like two plus two equals four, just as sure we have died with Christ. This becomes "real" in our experience by revelation of the Holy Spirit which leads us to cease from fleshly striving and rest in the work of the cross, or "reckon" it done.
The reckoning comes before the presenting of our bodily members as servants of righteousness. We cannot present the body without first reckoning our death with Christ, as described in Romans 6
Blessings,
If I am crucified, which is one of the great truths in the New Testament. Where do I go from hear, "for it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me" Gal 2:20.
This is the new birth that gives us the ability to grasp the things of God, by the Holy Spirit Teacher, and the Life of Christ in us.
This is the addition of the great truth of being crucified with Christ. Now that makes me dead, how am I to live?
I now live by the Life Giving Spirit of Christ in me.
Col 1:23 to the end. By the born again incorruptible Seed of Christ birthed in me, 1 Peter 1:26 to the end. Who is the incorruptible Seed, The Word of God. It is Jesus Christ the Word. John 1: 1-4.
Now the life we life we live by the Faith of Christ in us, "The Hope of Glory".
In Christ, but much more Christ in me, Oh what great Glory. The Spirit of the living Christ now in me. Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God almighty. My God has made of Jesus in me my wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption, my all in all.
Phillip
The death here is exaggerated. The only death that happens is the death of the Old man who was freely yielding to Sin. When a person is born again, the old man dies and God creates a new man. The new man now still lives in same old flesh. Hence he has to be strengthened everyday to fight against his own flesh and its passions. If he is not strengthened everyday then he falls to the same old flesh again and lives defeated. So even after we are born again we can still fall.
Other than this there is a daily death that each one of us should carry in our body. This is what Jesus mentioned when he said, "carry the cross everyday". It is not a one time death but everyday death.
One time death is easy to believe and live in some imaginary victories life where the person still lives in Sin but closes his eyes and says he is dead to Sin. A truly death to Sin should lead to Christlikeness and perfection. But none of us are perfectly sinless, hence it proves that there is no One time death at all.
Sree-
What you are saying makes much more sense to me.
I think James Campbell has articulated the position very well (if I understand him correctly).
I think much of the confusion is the term 'sin nature' or 'Adamic nature', which is used (unfortunately) in place of the 'flesh' by some translations of the bible like the NIV. It is not a biblical term and leads to the confusion that a believer has two natures within him (two spirits?) competing equally against each other. This is spiritual schizophrenia.
The bible actually does say the Spirit battles against 'the flesh (not another spirit in us). The flesh is not the Old Man' because we can put off the old man (Clossians 3:9 and Eph 4:22) because it was crucified with Christ, but the flesh will always be with us.
What does it mean to Reckon ourselves (the old man) dead?
I agree with James when he wrote " The meaning of death is not to cease existing but to be divided or separated from life or something we hold dear."
I recently watch a film about the old King of great Britain, King George 6th. In one part he said something interesting to this discussion. He was being asked to intervene in a government matter and it was said that if he could not do this as King, maybe he could advise on the basis of a personal relationship tjat he had before being king and just 'Bertie' as he was called then. He said 'Bertie' no longer exists, he died when I became 'King George' and King George cannot intervene even if he wants to. He could only serve the constitution and his position as King. He forfeited his rights to serve himself.
This is how we are to approach sin. We reckon ourselves to have died to that old man that served sin and therefore our obligation is to serve righteousness and not sin or self.
It is not some outside event that somehow mysteriously killed off our old self, but a reckoning of our new life and obedience to Christ.
Very good discussion.
Somethings to consider as we read the various views of how to approach Sanctification.
Is the view that we believe exclusive to Biblical Christianity or would it work without the Gospel ?
Who gets the Glory for our victories : Us or the Lord ?
Does our view cause us to be critical of others ? does it cause us to hold disdain for others ? Does it cause us to always be comparing ourselves to others ? or does it cause us to desire to share our understanding to help others whom might be struggling with the same defeats as what we have found victory over ?
by JamesECampbellJr
Many people blame sin on our adamic nature. Is there another way to explain why people would do, think, and feel bad things?
BUT!!! What makes us set apart is the man/woman who acknowledges it and repents quickly. David cried that his 'sin was ever before him."
The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever!
God bless,
Lisa
Every single one of us is going to come up short and sin till the...day...we...die,BUT!!! What makes us set apart is the man/woman who acknowledges it and repents quickly. David cried that his 'sin was ever before him."
The Lord is good and His mercy endures forever!
We need to define the 2 types of sins for this statement to be true. It is not God's will that a born again christian will fall and sin. So a truly born again christian should be able to walk without falling. So the statement that we will keep sinning till The Day is not Biblically correct.
There are conscious and unconscious sins. Conscious sins are those that we are very clear is sin in our life and have repented in past. There is no reason for us to fall for them again. If not then God should be a liar because he has promised that "Sin will not be master over you". If we sin then we are slaves to sin according to Jesus. Hence if we fall to any sin that we know is Sin then Romans 6:14 is not true in our life.
Unconscious sins are those that are still sin but we are not aware of. Our mind is not yet renewed or enlightened to see them inside us. The more we overcome the conscious sins in our life, God will shed light on the unconscious sins in our life. But as long as we repent from these unconscious sins, the moment we find in them, we are progressing towards Chirstlikeness. This is were repentance comes into picture.
It is because of unconscious sins that John said, "if we say we are without sin then we make him a liar". It is because of them that Paul says -" My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me." 1 Cor 4-4.
I still say christians sin because they want to. Nothing is forcing them to; they simply make a choice.
The problem with saying things like "you have been crucified with Christ" and the "old man has been put to death" and "you must reckon yourself dead to sin" is that-- while obviously biblical-- it is hard to state exactly what these things mean from a *practical* standpoint.
For example, if a brother approaches me to discuss a besetting sin that is troubling him, and I say "dude, just reckon yourself dead to sin man!" it is nothing but hippie talk that will not do him one whit of good. I have been a Christian for a long time and I have no confidence I could adequately explain what it means to "reckon yourself dead to sin."
It's like telling a smoker who wants to quit to just reckon themselves dead to cigarettes. That sounds a lot to me like telling them to pretend they aren't addicted to nicotine, but what I *should* be telling them is to just stop smoking cigarettes.
RE : ///For example, if a brother approaches me to discuss a besetting sin that is troubling him, and I say "dude, just reckon yourself dead to sin man!" it is nothing but hippie talk that will not do him one whit of good. I have been a Christian for a long time and I have no confidence I could adequately explain what it means to "reckon yourself dead to sin."///
As long as a drunk believes that he is a drunk he will continue to be a drunk : either a practicing drunk or else a recovering drunk.
Same for the porno addict, homosexual etc.
But if these men believed that what they where in the past is now dead.
That the old drunk the old porno addict the old homosexual is now dead. That they no longer have to identify as the such they no longer have to be held by the snare of the guilt of there past failures.
Than they would find freedom to : "walk in newness of life"
"The Bible’s purpose is not so much to show you how to live a good life. The Bible’s purpose is to show you how God’s grace breaks into your life against your will and saves you from the sin and brokenness otherwise you would never be able to overcome… religion is ‘if you obey, then you will be accepted’. But the Gospel is, ‘if you are absolutely accepted, and sure you’re accepted, only then will you ever begin to obey’. Those are two utterly different things. Every page of the Bible shows the difference." - Tim Keller
For example, if a brother approaches me to discuss a besetting sin that is troubling him, and I say "dude, just reckon yourself dead to sin man!" it is nothing but hippie talk that will not do him one whit of good. I have been a Christian for a long time and I have no confidence I could adequately explain what it means to "reckon yourself dead to sin."
First thing is the man who has a besetting sin should believe that his condition is not normal. That is why he has come to you asking for a solution. If he believes that having a besetting sin is normal as long as he repents everytime he falls then he will not ask for a solution. The need for a solution is a proof that there is some problem. The desire to repent is a proof that God's spirit is still striving with him. But God's spirit will not always strive with man (Gen 6:3).
I was in that space even after I was born again. The only reason was that I was not broken by then. God allowed me to hit the rock bottom of moral failure. He then showed me how much I trusted in my own abilities. The new man has to be strengthened. If he trusts in his own power, then the new man will fall prey to flesh. But if he trusts in the power of God then the new man will be renewed day by day with fresh power.
All our falling is a proof that we are unbroken!
The practical advice will be to ask him to focus on things that will strengthen the New man like fellowship of Godly brothers, God's word, prayer...
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