Is this Offensive?

Ask any Christian, "Why is the Cross of Christ considered offensive?” and they will likely tell you something like Billy Graham said, "…the cross speaks to you about your sins””your sins of immorality. There is no sin in the Bible that the Bible condemns more than the sin of immorality.”

I think the offense of the Cross is about something else. I believe my behavior is of secondary concern to God. The Cross tells me that my previous man (the old man) had to die not just because of evil I had done but because of something even worse, but which always dies when someone dies.

Yes, what Adam did in the Garden was wrong, but what he believed was worse. Beginning with Adam, God’s plan was to teach His children what He knows. Every good parent wants to do the same for their children.

Man is a creature who lives what he knows and believes. When Adam chose to believe that a lie was the truth, the rest of his knowledge and believing became instantly distorted, too. Because he was the first man, his belief in just one lie caused the catastrophic corruption of all subsequent human learning as well as the corruption of all of creation. There is only one way to destroy all of a person’s wrong knowledge. They must die because everything they know will die with them.

Thus, all mankind would have to die in order to cleanse it of its body of wrong knowledge (error). But, God loved His human creatures and was not about to destroy mankind. He needed for us to die so that we, His beloved creatures, would no longer be under the dominion of wrong knowledge and beliefs. But, how could He do that? God could not disavow a sworn covenant oath by destroying all of mankind, yet all were sinners, all had suffered the same corruption, all had to die.

The only answer was for God to become one with His human creatures and take them to death. By becoming one with us yet never participating in our rebellion, God could raise Christ from dead. Since He had "oned” Himself with us, when He rose, we did too. God’s purpose was achieved. Now all He had to do was teach us what He had done for us and to us. He had made us brand new creatures. Everything is new and it is all "out of” God (2 Cor. 5:18).

Now God is working to teach His children who we are in Christ. But, the incessant, multi-frequency lies of Satan have convinced many that God must mean something else and we are not who He says we are, at least not yet. And, when someone suggests that God killed our old man with what he knew and that we are really now brand new creatures, many become offended.

Yes, I believe the Gospel can be offensive to believers… when it threatens dearly held wrong beliefs. No one deliberately believes something they know is not true. But, we can convince ourselves that a lie is truth when we want what it offers more than we want the truth. We can also be convinced a lie is truth when we keep listening to things that are not true.

Does this offend you?

Elizabeth,

I appreciate you trying to think through what I was trying to say. It’s a massive subject that can take us many directions. I was heading a different direction than you perceived.

The subjects of what happened on the Cross and Jesus’ statement about dying daily are greatly misunderstood by many in the Church. By my post, I was hoping to begin a discussion that would eventually lead some readers to a greater understanding of how God intends for the Cross to affect our daily lives. People are so confused about the issue.

It seemed, to me, like the subject of the offense of the Cross was as good a place as any to start the discussion. I was hoping it would lead to helping participants understanding some of the early Church teachings that made it easy for believers to understanding the Gospels and epistles. Though the New Testament is full of references to them, these teaching were changed and/or lost by the fourth or fifth centuries.

To early believers, the Cross meant the death of everything they knew and believed. The goal of Church leaders was to train believers to know and think like their Father, God. Early believers rejoiced at the original meaning of repentance because it meant experiencing "Christ in you.” They were thrilled to give up what they had previously believed was truth. Their death on the Cross with Christ meant the lies they had believed no longer had dominion over them. They became intent on learning the truth because Jesus had told them "when you know the truth, it will make you free.” How could that be? Because people were created to live what they know and believe.

Unfortunately, the concept of replacing our old knowledge with God’s knowledge means something different today than it did back then. But, have you ever wondered how Stephen was able to fall asleep while being stoned to death, Paul was able to shake off a deadly viper, Peter could fall asleep while awaiting execution, or "if they drink any deadly thing it will not hurt them”? It wasn’t miracles or magic. Those early believers knew things about which modern believers have no knowledge. Understanding the New Testament requires a foundation, which was lost long ago.

Once people become grounded in the early church’s foundational teachings, they explode with understanding of the New Testament. It finally begins to make crystal clear sense. But to get to this point, we must first be willing to admit that what we believe is not working the way the Bible portrays it does. This is very hard to swallow. In fact, it requires death, the death to beliefs we have treasured as true, but which aren’t. Not only is the idea that their beliefs are wrong offensive to people, if we can even consider it, it can be terrifying.

This is where I was hoping to lead the thread, unless someone else did it first.

Todd, I’d love to share more. My initial reply was only to Elizabeth because I had concluded that no one else was interested in this thread. I actually felt like I wrote far more than she probably wanted to read. Because most people do not have a background like mine, it is easy for them to get lost in my words and never have a clue what I mean. I was trying to avoid that.

Where did you learn that Steven falling asleep only meant that he died? Are you sure? The Greek word means literally "to fall asleep.” This made me curious. How could he fall asleep while suffering the torture of being stoned? When God showed me, I was amazed. What joy, what peace. Steven knew something that God would like to teach us. But, when people believe their cup is full, why would they ask for any more coffee? I wanted to know what Steven knew. I am sure that whatever God was willing to teach Steven He is willing to teach anyone who asks.

Elizabeth, I could say it differently than you but I couldn't say it better.

Dave, one of your comments struck on a most important subject.

Your statement that what I say "appears to be bordering on Gnosticism” tells me that you don’t really know what Gnosticism is about. I’m sorry that you do not understand what I wrote, but the fact that you would suggest heresy before further inquiry is bothersome. I really appreciated Frank’s suggestion of small doses. I think small bites at a time are better for the digestion and can help keep any discussion more focused.

When I was introduced to Jesus in the early 70s, I frequently heard Christians say, "Jesus is the answer.” Everyone seemed so excited, but I kept wondering, "To what question is He the answer?” I needed to know how Jesus was the answer to things going on in my life. I eventually realized that their proclamation was an intuitive concept. Besides the fact that He is God and the Savior of the world and would keep people from going to hell, no one seemed to think anything else was important. He was simply the answer to everything those people believed was important.

Those people actually believed they knew everything that needed to be known. If anyone challenged what they taught, that person became a subject of suspicion. Their attitude was that it was the job of Christ’s disciples to read our Bibles, pray every day, attend church regularly, and witness. That was it.

When they discovered that I, who was beginning to take a leadership role, was seeking to better understand my relationship with the Triune God, I was threatened with expulsion. In fact, when I told them I believed there had to be more to being a Christian, they flat out said I was bordering on heresy. Years later I discovered that I was not the one bordering on heresy. I do not believe you are in the same category, but your suggestion was uncalled for.

I have a simple question for you, Dave. How much of God’s life has He given His children?

Everyone, please read again my comments about Steven falling asleep. I did not say that his falling asleep meant he didn’t die. The point was that he fell asleep while being stoned to death. The Greek language has specific words for death and dying, but Luke chose to use a word that means "fall asleep.” In Ancient Greek, that word only meant death in a metaphorical sense. So, why did Luke use it? Because, before Steven died he fell asleep.

How could that be? Don’t be too quick to count this as just the result of a miracle of being filled with the Holy Spirit. Read the accounts. This type of peace and presence of mind was common among early Christians. What enabled them to have such a connection with the Spirit of Christ that in the midst of torture their attention could be so captured by Jesus? Because, they knew, for sure, things most believers no longer believe. I know God still does miracles, but this was just normal life to believers back then. And, God never changes.

Todd, this is a point where you and I obviously differ. I hope others see it differently than you and, like me, believe that God is not loose with His words. I believe God chose to write the New Testament in Greek for a very specific reason and, that the fact that the Greek language was used, was part of the "fullness of times.”

The reason the Gospel is powerful is because it is God’s words, which are inherently powerful and need no help from mankind. You said I am taking God’s words to the "breaking point.” That is another place where we differ. I don’t believe God’s words have a breaking point. Every Word of God is filled with all of God Himself. God wants us to take His words as far as we are willing to believe them, there’s no limit. (This is not a license for the flesh.) In fact, Paul says that very thing. Unfortunately, apparently, no commercial translator believes that because I can’t find one that translates that passage correctly, thus, unless you understand Greek and are willing to not follow the crowd, you would never know it. There is no point where any word of God becomes a lie.

After years of hearing something that isn’t true, any of us will believe it.

It is unfortunate that so many believe we have to protect God by dumbing down what He says. I’m not one of them. He is the God that created the concept of covenant and His words can be trusted beyond the extreme.